Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 61 of 65 FirstFirst ... 11515960616263 ... LastLast
Results 1,501 to 1,525 of 1613

Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #1501
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "On Eupedia, old Dienekes blogposts, some other forums, roughly this is the number that is seen. You know that very well. Then on the Em35 project, and Yfull checking greek results one can learn about individual clades.
    But you are right, there is no greek dna project transparantly making their results available like the Albanian dna project. That doesn't surprise me.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml”.
    I am already aware of the general E-V13 frequency in Greeks. I asked you do you have any actual sources for each individual line to be claiming most of it came 3000 ybp and supposedly having ramifications for Greek historiography and nationhood? And you obviously don’t.


    You write, “
    There is nothing convincingly proto-greek about those two individual clades, and even if one of them was, it would negate the other, since one is in montenegro, the other in bulgaria.”.

    LOL, one in Bulgaria, one in Montenegro, and both of them in Greece during the proto-Greek period. How appropriate, right?

    You write, “
    If you really want to avoid the Illyrian term, call it hallstatt, call it celt, call it thracian, it still isn't greek.”.

    I am not avoiding anything. There are differences among all these people, and we have a name for all because they are all distinctive. And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.

    You write, “
    Majority of I2a in greeks and Albanians is slavic, and its clear to anybody that the exceptions are well known, aka the gothic one, etc. Those are a given. Yet again, Albanian dna project is very transparant, we show all our lineages, even foreign ones, whereas I don't see any greek dna project doing this. You should agitate your fellow countrymen to do the same so you won't be stuck to only studying Albanian percentages meticulously.”.

    I didn’t claim that the majority of I2a in Greeks and Albanians is not Slavic in origin, but there is obviously pre-Slavic presence as well. As for the second point, that’s a way of saying, i don’t know of any sources, but i still claim that most of E-V13 lines in Greece are 3000 ybp, and supposedly non-Greek. I got your point.

    You write, “
    Greeks archaeologically emerge in 7th century BC, this is their ethnogenesis remember?”.

    Obviously you are a little confused and probably don’t remember. Before you wrote 3000 ybp to be too late in Greek history, now you write 7th century BCE to be the beginning. In any case, as aforementioned Greek history and archaeology begins with the proto-Greeks during the 3rd millennium BCE (look at "Minyan ware" as an archaeological example) and the ethnogenesis of the Greeks during the 8th century BCE with the rise of Pan-Hellenism (look at the ancient Olympic Games as an example). We can likewise say that the ethnogenesis of Albanians only begins with the League of Lezhë in 1444 CE, despite the fact that Albanians existed since way earlier.

    You write, “
    Why would we speak along autosomal lines if discussing patrilineality? We are speaking about whether paternal groups came with a greek group or a non-greek group, and how non-greek men (hallstatians, celtics, thracians, illyrians) brought them to greece.”.

    I bring up autosomal DNA as an example to show you that assimilation of earlier groups happened, and you still view them as Greek, despite the fact that they were not proto-Greek, but pre-Greek. The same is true with many Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups, that were either assimilations of earlier people or later introductions. Nations are always evolving. You can likewise see that in the Albanian frequencies i shared, but i am certain you wouldn’t go and call any Albanian as of Slavic, Celtic, Norman, Greek or etc. origin. You still view them as Albanian, and they are indeed. After all, Y-DNA represents only 2% of the total DNA.

    You write, “
    Again, Ev13 in the volga, etc doesn't relate to the majority of Greek ev13 being clades that are younger than 3000 years and come from non-greek balkan areas.”.

    Again with the majority. Do you have any source for claiming that the majority of E-V13 lines in Greece are from the 3000 ybp clades? You obviously don’t, but you think it as appropriate to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. And besides, these 3000 ybp lines seem to come from non-Balkan areas, not Balkan areas.

    You write, “
    Take E-FGC33621 for example. You have it in Chania, Crete, a basal clade in Bulgaria, and a very deep rooted Albanian clan that belongs to it, and north west euros also. Nothing at all proto-greek about it:”.

    Yeah, and this line appears to be Hallstatt in origin, and one example doesn’t translate to a majority as you seem to be claiming throughout these comments.
    Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.


    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.

    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.


    Enough damage control.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  2. #1502
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    69
    Points
    2,637
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,637, Level: 14
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    2200ybp with the other 4 parallel branches that are without a doubt predominantly Slavic, that most certainly migrated to the Balkans during early Middle Ages. What are the chances for this branch to have migrated in a different period? I would say zero.
    Right now there is zero proof that Y18331 came to Greece as part of the Slavic migrations. The Dinaric branches formed a long time before the Slavic migrations. Without evidence, who is to say that they all migrated to Greece at the same time? Were there not previous northern invasions of Greece, like the Goths? Where are the Balkan Slavs and even East European Slavs with Y18331 to back it up? There are none yet.

    More evidence than just the Mycenaean study supports that modern Greeks have genetic continuity with the earlier Greeks. Greeks from the Peloponnese are shown to be close to and overlap a bit with Sicilians, for example. Another clue is the language. How could there have been Greek speakers if there were no Greeks around? Were other ethnic groups that insecure to give up their language and religion and become Greek with no other Greeks around to teach or compel them?

    Its like Alexander the Great and Macedonians. If they were not Greek, why did they spread around the Greek language and culture? Were they ashamed of their own language—people as bold as the world-conquering Alexander?

  3. #1503
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,940
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,940, Level: 15
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 110
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Just accept it and be done with it, that your ancestors were Slavic speaking. They mostly likely penetrated Greece early on as a compact tribe.


    And stop mentioning autosomal DNA comparisons and the conclusion authors brought related to Mycenaeans. Greeks from Peloponnesus are a mixed bunch. Third of Peloponnesus was Albanian speaking to begin with, without even mentioning the sea of Slavs that assimilated there. All is clear when one observes the y linages.

  4. #1504
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    69
    Points
    2,637
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,637, Level: 14
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    “Just accept it and be done with it, that your ancestors were Slavic speaking. They mostly likely penetrated Greece early on as a compact tribe.”

    A compact tribe? The Y18331 Greeks are found throughout Greece, north, west and south. I’m just going with the evidence. Of course Slavs came to Greece, but the Y18331 line, one of the major branches, has no East European or Balkan Slavs in it. Greece was a big area to be completely swamped by Slavs. Who did the Slavs interact with anyway, to have been made Greek?


    ”And stop mentioning autosomal DNA comparisons and the conclusion authors brought related to Mycenaeans.”

    Stop using autosomal genetic evidence by major academic researchers and start believing a blog commenter? Lol!!! That’s funny. No thanks, I’ll stick with scientific evidence, like this very study and the Peloponnesian one that shows closeness to Cretans and Sicilians.
    Last edited by Ralphie Boy; 20-09-19 at 22:12.

  5. #1505
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,940
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,940, Level: 15
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 110
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You still have Y23115 (formed 2100ybp) in Eastern Europe besides the parallel subclades, plus the Chuvash under A7134, as the evidence you’re looking for. It doesn’t matter how they identify today. It’s all there staring at you, you just have to be blind not to see it.

  6. #1506
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    69
    Points
    2,637
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,637, Level: 14
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    “You still have Y23115 (formed 2100ybp) in Eastern Europe besides the parallel subclades”

    Every one of them is a Jewish male. None of them are non-Jewish Slavs. I already mentioned the Chuvash man. There are many Ashkenazi East European Jews who either are or suspected to be in Y18331 and zero non-Jews. Jews are not native to East Europe but came from somewhere else. That might hold a key to where and when the Greeks and Jews had a common ancestor.

    “It doesn’t matter how they identify today.”

    And you know what they were before, how? They all had a mass conversion to Judaism but there are zero non-Jewish Slavs? There are no East European Slavs or Balkan Slavs in Y18331 as of now. If and when that changes, that will be the evidence.

    Back to the topic of this thread:

    In another thread, someone mentioned that the Crete Armenoi sample in this paper falls within or near the Peloponnese cluster. Interesting.






  7. #1507
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    You write, "@Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611).".
    I know that most of R-M269 in Greece is R-Z2103, but are you certain about R-BY611?


    You write, "E-V13 is not that evenly spread either.".

    I didn't write evenly, but broadly prevalent. For example, look at the general frequencies of E1b1b throughout Greece, of which E-V13 represents the vast majority.
    North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 20.5%
    Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 29.5%
    South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 27%
    Crete: 11%
    Aegean Islands: 22%
    With the exception of Crete (650,000 Greeks out of 11,000,000), all the rest are above 20%. Low frequencies in Crete, could be due to many early historical reasons.

    You write, "Anyway, I do am not saying we can refute all R-M269 branches as possible proto-Greek Y-DNA lines. My point is, differences in frequency are not very indicative. Diversity is much more important.".

    I wasn't necessarily referring to proto-Greek lines in the previous comment, when i wrote about "broadly prevalent". As for R-Z2103, some was in Greece even before the proto-Greek arrival. Look at R-KMS67 for example. It was most probably due to an early IE migration.

    You write, "I opened a new thread on the proto-Albanian & proto-Romanian discussion, so this one can get back to the intended topic.".

    Thanks mate, but to be honest i am not looking to expand on the subject. After all, i only follow two threads for a reason.

  8. #1508
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.

    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.

  9. #1509
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,940
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,940, Level: 15
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 110
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    “You still have Y23115 (formed 2100ybp) in Eastern Europe besides the parallel subclades”

    Every one of them is a Jewish male. None of them are non-Jewish Slavs. I already mentioned the Chuvash man. There are many Ashkenazi East European Jews who either are or suspected to be in Y18331 and zero non-Jews. Jews are not native to East Europe but came from somewhere else. That might hold a key to where and when the Greeks and Jews had a common ancestor.

    “It doesn’t matter how they identify today.”

    And you know what they were before, how? They all had a mass conversion to Judaism but there are zero non-Jewish Slavs? There are no East European Slavs or Balkan Slavs in Y18331 as of now. If and when that changes, that will be the evidence.

    Back to the topic of this thread:

    In another thread, someone mentioned that the Crete Armenoi sample in this paper falls within or near the Peloponnese cluster. Interesting.





    Jewish from Slavic countries, buddy. From Poland, Belarus etc. Obviously locals that converted to Judaism.

  10. #1510
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    342
    Points
    3,230
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,230, Level: 16
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 220
    Overall activity: 83.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.

    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.
    illyrians where in noricum circa 1600BC .......they eventually formed Halstatt with the invading celts circa 1000BC


    Plus , there are no Illyrians..........it is a geographical expression......like scandinavian
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  11. #1511
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    illyrians where in noricum circa 1600BC .......they eventually formed Halstatt with the invading celts circa 1000BC


    Plus , there are no Illyrians..........it is a geographical expression......like scandinavian
    Illyrians emerge as an ethnic group with a distinct culture and art form, during the 7th century BCE, under influence from the Hallstatt culture in the north. Even if we use the term "Illyrian" as a geographic designation though, Noricum still falls outside its boundaries. Unless i misunderstood your point.

  12. #1512
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post

    Back to the topic of this thread:

    In another thread, someone mentioned that the Crete Armenoi sample in this paper falls within or near the Peloponnese cluster. Interesting.
    Indeed, the Crete_Armenoi sample (1370-1340 BCE) appears to be in line with the Peloponnesian cluster. It is actually a female sample, although her mtDNA, namely U5a1 was already present in Crete from way earlier. As a matter of fact, one of the Minoan_Lasithi (2000-1700 BCE) female samples also had it.

  13. #1513
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,295
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,295, Level: 9
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 55
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "@Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611).".
    I know that most of R-M269 in Greece is R-Z2103, but are you certain about R-BY611?


    You write, "E-V13 is not that evenly spread either.".

    I didn't write evenly, but broadly prevalent. For example, look at the general frequencies of E1b1b throughout Greece, of which E-V13 represents the vast majority.
    North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 20.5%
    Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 29.5%
    South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 27%
    Crete: 11%
    Aegean Islands: 22%
    With the exception of Crete (650,000 Greeks out of 11,000,000), all the rest are above 20%. Low frequencies in Crete, could be due to many early historical reasons.

    You write, "Anyway, I do am not saying we can refute all R-M269 branches as possible proto-Greek Y-DNA lines. My point is, differences in frequency are not very indicative. Diversity is much more important.".

    I wasn't necessarily referring to proto-Greek lines in the previous comment, when i wrote about "broadly prevalent". As for R-Z2103, some was in Greece even before the proto-Greek arrival. Look at R-KMS67 for example. It was most probably due to an early IE migration.

    You write, "I opened a new thread on the proto-Albanian & proto-Romanian discussion, so this one can get back to the intended topic.".

    Thanks mate, but to be honest i am not looking to expand on the subject. After all, i only follow two threads for a reason.
    Which do you think are the haplogroups in general that existed in ancient Greece?

  14. #1514
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    321
    Points
    3,221
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,221, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 229
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "@Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611).".
    I know that most of R-M269 in Greece is R-Z2103, but are you certain about R-BY611?
    Certain. It peaks in areas with a history of Albanian populations: Peloponnese, Attica, West Macedonia, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I wasn't necessarily referring to proto-Greek lines in the previous comment, when i wrote about "broadly prevalent". As for R-Z2103, some was in Greece even before the proto-Greek arrival. Look at R-KMS67 for example. It was most probably due to an early IE migration.
    Maybe, but you have to look at how old these clusters are and estimate when and where the mrca lived.

  15. #1515
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    69
    Points
    2,637
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,637, Level: 14
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Indeed, the Crete_Armenoi sample (1370-1340 BCE) appears to be in line with the Peloponnesian cluster. It is actually a female sample, although her mtDNA, namely U5a1 was already present in Crete from way earlier. As a matter of fact, one of the Minoan_Lasithi (2000-1700 BCE) female samples also had it.
    Here are data from an earlier study on the Peloponnese, Crete and Sicily that seem to corroborate this study. The earlier study argues for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, from the Dodecanese and Crete to the Peloponnese and the through the Balkans. The Peloponnesians are from central Arcadia, an area of Medieval Slavic colonization. But the area was reclaimed by the Byzantines early on and has probably been Greek-speaking for a long time.

    Attachment 11434Attachment 11433Attachment 11435

    The Peloponnesians (Arcadians), Southeast Laconians and Sicilians cluster together, near the Cretans and Dodecanese, appearing to show the migration movement of Neolithic people. This implies a long genetic continuity, giving support to the Mycenaean study.

    The Peloponnesian study that came later showed little direct Slavic input, because the Slavs may have been mixed themselves with Balkan people and early Byzantine reconquest.

  16. #1516
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Which do you think are the haplogroups in general that existed in ancient Greece?
    Well, that is a very general question, and actually more complicated than some people like to think. Even if we just take the period of what has been academically termed "ancient Greece", we are essentially referring to a period spanning more or less 1500 years. Dawning with the beginning of the Greek Dark Ages (11th-9th centuries BCE) and setting with the persecution of pagans in the late Roman Empire during the 4th-6th centuries CE, which is a whole subject of its own. As a sidenote, pockets of pagans never ceazed to exist. Let me bring to your attention for example that Greece wasn't completely Christianized until the 12th century CE, with the last official pagans being located in Mani, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula#Religion. And even then, crypto-paganism continued as can be seen in the works of Gemistus Pletho and others, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemistus_Pletho.

    Back to the haplogroups though. Haplogroups are something very general. I could simply give you the answer that most if not all of the haplogroups contemporarily present in modern Greece, were in varying frequencies also present in Greece during the broad period of "ancient Greece". If we really want to get an accurate perspective though, we would need to study all the different subclades or lines that are present in Greece, and determine when each was introduced. This is something that likewise requires its own thread, and personally i lack the time to focus on the study of something like this, especially when you consider that we are lacking sources for each subclade's frequency in the broader population. The short answer i can give you, is that the subclades for most of the pre-Greek haplogroups (such as G2a, J2a, J1, T1a, and some I2a), proto-Greek (such as some E-V13, R1b-M269, and R1a - in general i would focus on the Catacomb culture,
    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/catacomb_culture.shtml), and post-Bronze-Age collapse and ancient Greek introductions, can all be considered as present in ancient Greece, and part of the ancient Greeks. Therefore, an answer really depends on many variables, and cannot simply be compartmentalized. There are subclades of the aforementioned ancient Greek haplogroups that entered Greece during the Medieval and Modern periods as well. For example, it is certain that much of I2a and R1a in Greece has a Slavic origin.

  17. #1517
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    @Ownstyler
    Yo
    u write, "Certain. It peaks in areas with a history of Albanian populations: Peloponnese, Attica, West Macedonia, etc.".Sure mate, but i ask whether we have any source of its frequency in the broader Greek population. The descendants of Arvanites in Greece are approximately 200,000, and were mostly concentrated in Attica, Corinth, and Argolis, not really West Macedonia (Greek administrative region). And besides, if you check at the bottom of the http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ source that i shared, the certainly extremely small sample-size (in other words, we need many more samples) of 14, shows no R1b-M269 at all. Of course there was some R1b-BY611 introduction from Albanians, but it doesn't appear to be much.

    You write, "
    Maybe, but you have to look at how old these clusters are and estimate when and where the mrca lived.".
    Certainly, that's why i don't even consider it as a proto-Greek subclade, but most probably due to an earlier IE migration that eventually also got assimilated. A TMRCA of 5200 ybp is way too early in my perspective.

  18. #1518
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    @Ralphie Boy
    You write, "
    Here are data from an earlier study on the Peloponnese, Crete and Sicily that seem to corroborate this study. The earlier study argues for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, from the Dodecanese and Crete to the Peloponnese and the through the Balkans. The Peloponnesians are from central Arcadia, an area of Medieval Slavic colonization. But the area was reclaimed by the Byzantines early on and has probably been Greek-speaking for a long time.

    Attachment 11434Attachment 11433Attachment 11435".
    Don't really understand which study you refer to mate. Also, the attachments don't show (i also struggle with this when i attach images, hence why i immediately edit the comment by deleting the attachment and re-uploading it, after which it shows). I suspect you mean this one, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. If so, i have also shared this paper in the past of this thread.

    You write, "The Peloponnesians (Arcadians), Southeast Laconians and Sicilians cluster together, near the Cretans and Dodecanese, appearing to show the migration movement of Neolithic people. This implies a long genetic continuity, giving support to the Mycenaean study.".
    I see that many of the Peloponnesians are very close to Sicilians, although south-east Laconians seem to be the furthest of the bunch. It is mostly the western Peloponnesians that seem to be clustering with them. Maybe you refer to another study and not the one i aforementioned, or maybe i don't recall accurately.

    You write, "The Peloponnesian study that came later showed little direct Slavic input, because the Slavs may have been mixed themselves with Balkan people and early Byzantine reconquest.".
    Sure, it appears to have been between 0.2%-14.4% from an autosomal perspective, depending on the region. The least Slavic influence is seen in South Tsakonia and Deep Mani, namely 0.2%-1%.

  19. #1519
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    162
    Points
    2,614
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,614, Level: 14
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 136
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.

    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.
    E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.

    Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  20. #1520
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    207
    Points
    7,228
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,228, Level: 25
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 322
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    About the hypothesis that E-V13 in Greece arrived in Greece approx. 3000 years ago. Isn't E-V13 prevalent in Cypriots as well? The Achaean Greeks there settled mostly between 1400 BC to 1200 BC. So this hints that E-V13 was present in Greek populations much earlier.

  21. #1521
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    269
    Points
    5,173
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,173, Level: 21
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 377
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "
    E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.".
    E-CTS1273 being present in Ossetia clearly suggests that it spread from there. It also correlates with the widespread hypothesis that proto-Greek must have come from Catacomb culture, which during 2500 BCE (E-CTS1273's TMRCA) also encompassed Ossetia. If you don't want to call it pre-proto-Greek or even proto-Greek, i really don't have a problem. You may even call it a palaeo-Balkan IE line. My point is that it must have eventually been one of the proto-Greek lines.

    CTS1273* hasn't shown up in the Balkans. Unless i am missing something, the only two that have is id:YF15944 from Ossetia and id:ERS1789480, who from a thread that you in fact also participated, another member wrote he is an Ashkenazi Jew. If he is indeed an Ashkenazi Jew that has it, he can very well be a descendant of a Khazar (Jewish) Caucasian. If by Albanian from Eastern Albania you refer to the so-called Skrapar sample, he was not CTS1273*, but E-FT12534 which formed 2600 ybp with a TMRCA of likewise 2600 ybp.


    Having the highest diversity in Europe is only natural. Why wouldn't it?

    I don't see how it's sister clade, namely E-Y30977, has a clear origin in the Balkans. You are obviously referring to the daughter of E-Y30977, namely E-Y37092 which seems to have reached the Balkans 4100 ybp, namely 500 years after E-Y30977 formed.

    You write, "Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.".
    Again, please look at the two aforementioned (E-BY3880, E-Y37092) subclades more carefully. They seem to have been part of the proto-Greeks. Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade. Furthermore, the Italian E-BY3880* sample, is from Messina, which was one of the largest Greek colonies in Sicily, and very likely also has Greek origin via its Greek colonists from Chalcis (despite the name the colony wasn't founded by Messenians, and only later acquired it).

    As for the E-Y150909a, E-Z17264, and E-PH1173, they indeed seem to have been of Celtic origin, and of non-proto-Greek origin. In any case, as you see i don't have a problem admitting if a subclade appears to not have a proto-Greek origin. After all, they are surely ancient Greek, namely ancient Greeks also inherited them, despite of not having an original proto-Greek origin.

  22. #1522
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    69
    Points
    2,637
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,637, Level: 14
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    “Don't really understand which study you refer to mate. Also, the attachments don't show (i also struggle with this when i attach images, hence why i immediately edit the comment by deleting the attachment and re-uploading it, after which it shows). I suspect you mean this one, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. If so, i have also shared this paper in the past of this thread.”

    Sorry for not including the link. It’s a study arguing for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, moving from the Aegean and Mediterranean on northward through the Greek mainland and then further north. This study shows the apparent clustering of two modern Peloponnesian Greek populations with Sicilians, and closeness to modern Crete and Dodecanese, in one of the maps.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211

    The late population genetics pioneer L.L. Cavalli-Sforza I think wrote that earlier migrations were the most important, because of less population density. The more recent migrations, like in Medieval times, had less impact because of greater population density of indigenous people. His study found the stronger Neolithic component in the southeast Mediterranean, just like these newer studies, where newer migrations added to but didn’t replace the older genes.

  23. #1523
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    321
    Points
    3,221
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,221, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 229
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The descendants of Arvanites in Greece are approximately 200,000, and were mostly concentrated in Attica, Corinth, and Argolis, not really West Macedonia (Greek administrative region).
    I said "history of Albanian populations", which inludes Arvanites, but also other regions. Macedonia and its western regions had many different ethnic groups until the early 20th century, including Albanians (ex: in Loechovo, Drosopigi/Belkameni, Flampouro/Nevogan, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Ownstyler You write, "Certain. It peaks in areas with a history of Albanian populations: Peloponnese, Attica, West Macedonia, etc.".Sure mate, but i ask whether we have any source of its frequency in the broader Greek population... ...And besides, if you check at the bottom of the http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ source that i shared, the certainly extremely small sample-size (in other words, we need many more samples) of 14, shows no R1b-M269 at all. Of course there was some R1b-BY611 introduction from Albanians, but it doesn't appear to be much.
    It is actually not that low. In Bosch 2006, Katsaloulis 2013, Robino 2004, Parreira 2002 & Kovatsi 2013, R1b-BY611 is ~2% in Greece (Albanians have 10-15%), and a bit higher in the areas I mentioned. It is only absent in the islands.

    From commercial results, I know of at least 8-9 of BY611 results from the Peloponnese, a few in Attica and in West Macedonia (there is a relatively high percentage all around the Ohrid and Prespa Lakes), and then scattered results from the rest of continental Greece + 1 Greek from Corfu and 1 Arvanite from Hydra. There are many more I cannot place regionally. Again, I have not noticed any in the islands.

    On YHRD, a modal R-BY611 is the 4th most common haplotype among >1000 results in Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Maybe, but you have to look at how old these clusters are and estimate when and where the mrca lived.". Certainly, that's why i don't even consider it as a proto-Greek subclade, but most probably due to an earlier IE migration that eventually also got assimilated. A TMRCA of 5200 ybp is way too early in my perspective.
    I meant when the mrca of a possible Greek cluster there. The current mrca of the clade includes all over Europe and even the Middle East. If you don't know of a cluster dominated by Greeks within this branch, you cannot say if this line reached Greece 5200, 3000, or 200 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade.
    The Greek and Bulgarian samples currently under E-BY3880 have no calls for two important subclades below: E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. They might very well fall into one of those two. Only the Italian sample is certainly E-VBY3880*.

  24. #1524
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    162
    Points
    2,614
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,614, Level: 14
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 136
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "
    E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.".
    E-CTS1273 being present in Ossetia clearly suggests that it spread from there. It also correlates with the widespread hypothesis that proto-Greek must have come from Catacomb culture, which during 2500 BCE (E-CTS1273's TMRCA) also encompassed Ossetia. If you don't want to call it pre-proto-Greek or even proto-Greek, i really don't have a problem. You may even call it a palaeo-Balkan IE line. My point is that it must have eventually been one of the proto-Greek lines.

    CTS1273* hasn't shown up in the Balkans. Unless i am missing something, the only two that have is id:YF15944 from Ossetia and id:ERS1789480, who from a thread that you in fact also participated, another member wrote he is an Ashkenazi Jew. If he is indeed an Ashkenazi Jew that has it, he can very well be a descendant of a Khazar (Jewish) Caucasian. If by Albanian from Eastern Albania you refer to the so-called Skrapar sample, he was not CTS1273*, but E-FT12534 which formed 2600 ybp with a TMRCA of likewise 2600 ybp.


    Having the highest diversity in Europe is only natural. Why wouldn't it?

    I don't see how it's sister clade, namely E-Y30977, has a clear origin in the Balkans. You are obviously referring to the daughter of E-Y30977, namely E-Y37092 which seems to have reached the Balkans 4100 ybp, namely 500 years after E-Y30977 formed.

    You write, "Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.".
    Again, please look at the two aforementioned (E-BY3880, E-Y37092) subclades more carefully. They seem to have been part of the proto-Greeks. Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade. Furthermore, the Italian E-BY3880* sample, is from Messina, which was one of the largest Greek colonies in Sicily, and very likely also has Greek origin via its Greek colonists from Chalcis (despite the name the colony wasn't founded by Messenians, and only later acquired it).

    As for the E-Y150909a, E-Z17264, and E-PH1173, they indeed seem to have been of Celtic origin, and of non-proto-Greek origin. In any case, as you see i don't have a problem admitting if a subclade appears to not have a proto-Greek origin. After all, they are surely ancient Greek, namely ancient Greeks also inherited them, despite of not having an original proto-Greek origin.
    Nope it doesn't, by this logic it should've expanded also from Albania. CTS1273* has shown up in the Balkans, the result I'm referring to is my maternal uncle, they are from the Dibra-Librazhd area. Not every CTS1273* sample has been uploaded to Yfull. The Jewish sample isn't Ashkenazi iirc, he is from Turkey, but it's highly likely that his paternal side came from Europe. Y-DNA has shown that the Khazars have nothing to do with modern day Ashkenazis.

    The fact that CTS1273 has little to no diversity in the Caucasus or surrounding areas make it extremely unlikely for it to have origin there, the most likely scenario is that CTS1273 originated in the Balkans but a branch migrated to the Eastern European steppe area, where it was assimilated.

    Y30977 does have pretty clear origin in the Balkans. It's most diverse in the Western Balkans, most frequent in the Balkans and it's basal clades show up most in the Balkans as well. Unlike, CTS1273, Y30977 doesn't seem to have been picked up by IE speakers, it remained in the Balkans for longer.

    You need to specify which clades you're referring to, the BY3880 guy is actually Z5018* it's just that his analysis hasn't finished. Z5018 has a TMRCA of ~3,700ybp and seems to be most diverse in areas north of Greece. As for Y37092, this branch remained in the Western Balkans so it's possible that Proto-Greeks picked it up when they arrived in the Balkans.

  25. #1525
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    162
    Points
    2,614
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,614, Level: 14
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 136
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    The Greek and Bulgarian samples currently under E-BY3880 have no calls for two important subclades below: E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. They might very well fall into one of those two. Only the Italian sample is certainly E-VBY3880*.
    There is also a Macedonian sample that is BY3880*, though he isn't on Yfull. He's tested via the Serb project and is an ethnic Serb from Jegunovtse, with origin from Komogllave, Kosovo.

Page 61 of 65 FirstFirst ... 11515960616263 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •