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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #1526
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    Greek BY3880* is an ethnic Bulgarian and he's Z5018+ at FTDNA in cluster with a Czech.

    If talking about E-V13 among Greeks, well there are only 3 ethnic Greeks at YFull, 1 being from a study. There are some additional people at FTDNA as well as ability to prpedict some Greeks from studies who fall into already well established clusters.

    Probably the most common individual clade is E-Z17264. And this one is diverse at basal level in Greeks. YF15987 Greek is in a cluster with another Greek while being 23/111. Bulgarian YF16967 belongs to a very widespread cluster present in many Greeks, but also some Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Hungarians. In a study of Greek Macedonia two 439=9 samples lacked one important mutation for this cluster possibly indicating it's original base might be Greek Macedonia. However this clade must have arrived to Greece from the North.

    It seems alot of Greek V13's are LBA/EIA arrivals, so connected with Mycenean collapse. There are some cultures such as Gârla Mare from SW Romania that according to some Russian archaeologists was proto-Dorian, and certain clades under E-Y3183 seem to fit that pattern, as might L241. And these are also sister clades. Many have connected central European R1b's to Dorians, in particular high percentage in areas of Crete. These belong to R-Y4354 subclade, they have no relation to Bulgarian nor they have any close relation to Ugarak clan from Eastern Herzegovina belonging to this clade. There is also one Romanian from a study who is R-Y4354 and he too is very isolated, but he is from Dolj which is close to Gârla Mare. But it makes no sense phylogenetically that an R1b L51 would speak the Greek language, these were the Urnfield people speaking language related to Celto-Italic who picked up Dorian from someone else, who might have been that? I'm thinking L241 and some clades under it's sister clade Y3183. There is also some presence of L584 in both Greeks and Romania who should be related to Phrygians who in turn are supposed to be related to Greeks.

    There is already a lot of these isolated R-U152 clades in the Western Balkans who are largely surely connected to Urnfield Illyrian movement. Probably they were especially common among Pannonian Illyrians where they met and assimilated some more Western younger V13 clades that also have cousins who ended up in Greece in LBA/EIA such as certain L241, CTS9320's..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Nope it doesn't, by this logic it should've expanded also from Albania. CTS1273* has shown up in the Balkans, the result I'm referring to is my maternal uncle, they are from the Dibra-Librazhd area. Not every CTS1273* sample has been uploaded to Yfull. The Jewish sample isn't Ashkenazi iirc, he is from Turkey, but it's highly likely that his paternal side came from Europe. Y-DNA has shown that the Khazars have nothing to do with modern day Ashkenazis.
    Was he tested for BY3880? Guess not. I khow he is CTS5856*, from an FTDNA Pack where they didn't test BY3880 so chances are very high he is actually BY3880*. So I have problem with you using him as an example of CTS1273*, BY3880-, in the same line with Ossetian cluster and Ashkenazi.

    Recently there is a new Tatar YF65266 who is a very basal S7461 which makes stronger case for CTS1273 being somewhere in vicinity of Pontic steppe at the time of expansion.

    Y30977 doesn't quite fit there, however there is some presence of E-Y30977 in Moldavia. It seems from Moldavian study E-BY14150 and E-Y81468 are present there. E-BY14150 should be there for some time because there are some others in vicinity who have more STR's and no connection to BY14150 found in Balkans, but they might have arrived from the South. The likely E-Y81468 doesn't have enough STR's to get an idea how distant he is to others.

    Y30977 does fit into Cetina culture very well. This was at least strongly partially Indoeuropeanized culture. And ofc in Neolithic times V13 only can fit in Dalmatian Cardial pottery where L618 was found (or maybe in Trypillia where M78 was found). And besides even if there was no genetics presence of some E-M78 in Neolithic there could be spotted. Do you know some neolithic Dalmatian Impresso (and no other European Neolithic culture) burial practices according to Yugoslav archaeologists had the only known parallels in Maasai people? They happen to have E-M78.
    "The authors observed haplogroup E1b1b in 50% of the studied Maasai", might be something E-M35 pastoralists brought there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Right now there is zero proof that Y18331 came to Greece as part of the Slavic migrations. The Dinaric branches formed a long time before the Slavic migrations. Without evidence, who is to say that they all migrated to Greece at the same time? Were there not previous northern invasions of Greece, like the Goths? Where are the Balkan Slavs and even East European Slavs with Y18331 to back it up? There are none yet.
    The working hypothesis is that Y18331 are descendants of Bastarnae expedition as allies of Philip of Macedon in 179 BC. They did arrive to Thrace/Dardania, likely some were subsequently settled by Greeks. Chuvash and Jews might descend of Crimean Greeks. It seems thus far Y18331 did not take part in ethnogeneis of Slavs.
    Bastarnae are also an ideal explanation why I-Y3120 is Eastern while there is I-CTS10228* in a French Alsace, and all upstream clades are NW European. Bastarnae migration is well attested archeologically as is their participation in Slavic ethnogenesis.

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    I'm afraid realistic expansion of E-V13 is not going to favor either either Hellenic nor Albanian fixation on Illyrians (largely inherited from Enver Hohxa similar to Romanian Dacian fixation inherited from Ceausescu era). Cetina culture migrated to Central Balkans, while it basically dissapeared in its original territory without any inheritors. However some Dalmatian Illyrians like Liburni being more archaic likely had some older V13 clades. But those in Central Balkans had almost certainly something to do with Vatin culture. Either already in Cetina culture through strong Corded Ware influence from a R-Z280 clade (such as one basal Z280 without relatives for 4500 years found in Serbs) E-CTS1273 had picked up a Satem pre-proto Thracian language or this happened later in Vatin culture and closely related cultures (such as some in Romania).

    In late Bronze Age Urnfield invasion (primarily R-U152) and other movements triggered mass movements of a number of E-V13's and others. These movements are well attested, and involve likely Central-Balkan -> South Albania movement as well as Central/East-Balkan-> Greece movement. Subsequently there were likely other migrations into Greece. And ofc some Greek V13's migrated there in Middle Ages.

    Btw. according to some historians about 800/700 BC if you asked members of many Illyrian tribes "are you Illyrian?" alot of them would answer to you by "what is that?". And some southern tribes might have answered "ah those are our neighbor tribe but we are not Illyrians". Few centuries later they became Illyrian so don't get too fixated on this idea that Antiquity peoples stretched all the way to Bronze Age. In late Bronze Age Antiquity peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians did not exist in any way under those names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I'm afraid realistic expansion of E-V13 is not going to favor either either Hellenic nor Albanian fixation on Illyrians (largely inherited from Enver Hohxa similar to Romanian Dacian fixation inherited from Ceausescu era). Cetina culture migrated to Central Balkans, while it basically dissapeared in its original territory without any inheritors. However some Dalmatian Illyrians like Liburni being more archaic likely had some older V13 clades. But those in Central Balkans had almost certainly something to do with Vatin culture. Either already in Cetina culture through strong Corded Ware influence from a R-Z280 clade (such as one basal Z280 without relatives for 4500 years found in Serbs) E-CTS1273 had picked up a Satem pre-proto Thracian language or this happened later in Vatin culture and closely related cultures (such as some in Romania).

    In late Bronze Age Urnfield invasion (primarily R-U152) and other movements triggered mass movements of a number of E-V13's and others. These movements are well attested, and involve likely Central-Balkan -> South Albania movement as well as Central/East-Balkan-> Greece movement. Subsequently there were likely other migrations into Greece. And ofc some Greek V13's migrated there in Middle Ages.

    Btw. according to some historians about 800/700 BC if you asked members of many Illyrian tribes "are you Illyrian?" alot of them would answer to you by "what is that?". And some southern tribes might have answered "ah those are our neighbor tribe but we are not Illyrians". Few centuries later they became Illyrian so don't get too fixated on this idea that Antiquity peoples stretched all the way to Bronze Age. In late Bronze Age Antiquity peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians did not exist in any way under those names.
    Excuse me, i am curious. What have to do Enver Hoxha for example with this:
    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1774_Thunmann/index.html
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I'm afraid realistic expansion of E-V13 is not going to favor either either Hellenic nor Albanian fixation on Illyrians (largely inherited from Enver Hohxa similar to Romanian Dacian fixation inherited from Ceausescu era). Cetina culture migrated to Central Balkans, while it basically dissapeared in its original territory without any inheritors. However some Dalmatian Illyrians like Liburni being more archaic likely had some older V13 clades. But those in Central Balkans had almost certainly something to do with Vatin culture. Either already in Cetina culture through strong Corded Ware influence from a R-Z280 clade (such as one basal Z280 without relatives for 4500 years found in Serbs) E-CTS1273 had picked up a Satem pre-proto Thracian language or this happened later in Vatin culture and closely related cultures (such as some in Romania).

    In late Bronze Age Urnfield invasion (primarily R-U152) and other movements triggered mass movements of a number of E-V13's and others. These movements are well attested, and involve likely Central-Balkan -> South Albania movement as well as Central/East-Balkan-> Greece movement. Subsequently there were likely other migrations into Greece. And ofc some Greek V13's migrated there in Middle Ages.

    Btw. according to some historians about 800/700 BC if you asked members of many Illyrian tribes "are you Illyrian?" alot of them would answer to you by "what is that?". And some southern tribes might have answered "ah those are our neighbor tribe but we are not Illyrians". Few centuries later they became Illyrian so don't get too fixated on this idea that Antiquity peoples stretched all the way to Bronze Age. In late Bronze Age Antiquity peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians did not exist in any way under those names.
    Liburnians are no longer considered Illyrians by linguists but part of the celto-italic branch close to venetic. Also you keep defining cetina as the illyrian culture when linguistically what are called illyrians proper do not fit into cetina.

    Its totally irrelevent if they identified as illyrians since we are talking about illyrian as a linguist category, aka a language. Many slavophone tribes likewise would not say i am a slav, but that is the term we use to refer to the language group. Likewise, Messapic is satem, and illyrian proper, not Liburnian, was most likely satem. We dont have any writing, but messapic and glosses like Birzimium point to satem.

    So your argument about proto-albanian ev13 not being "illyrian" rests on redefining the term illyrian to mean liburnian, which is not correct.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Was he tested for BY3880? Guess not. I khow he is CTS5856*, from an FTDNA Pack where they didn't test BY3880 so chances are very high he is actually BY3880*. So I have problem with you using him as an example of CTS1273*, BY3880-, in the same line with Ossetian cluster and Ashkenazi.

    Recently there is a new Tatar YF65266 who is a very basal S7461 which makes stronger case for CTS1273 being somewhere in vicinity of Pontic steppe at the time of expansion.

    Y30977 doesn't quite fit there, however there is some presence of E-Y30977 in Moldavia. It seems from Moldavian study E-BY14150 and E-Y81468 are present there. E-BY14150 should be there for some time because there are some others in vicinity who have more STR's and no connection to BY14150 found in Balkans, but they might have arrived from the South. The likely E-Y81468 doesn't have enough STR's to get an idea how distant he is to others.

    Y30977 does fit into Cetina culture very well. This was at least strongly partially Indoeuropeanized culture. And ofc in Neolithic times V13 only can fit in Dalmatian Cardial pottery where L618 was found (or maybe in Trypillia where M78 was found). And besides even if there was no genetics presence of some E-M78 in Neolithic there could be spotted. Do you know some neolithic Dalmatian Impresso (and no other European Neolithic culture) burial practices according to Yugoslav archaeologists had the only known parallels in Maasai people? They happen to have E-M78.
    "The authors observed haplogroup E1b1b in 50% of the studied Maasai", might be something E-M35 pastoralists brought there.
    Yh true, there are chances that he could be BY3880*. Though so far based on STRs he isn't close to anybody, not even the BY3880* samples. His BigY failed quality control so it will be quite a while till we actually know what clade he actually falls under.
    I agree with CTS1273 being close to the Pontic steppe upon its expansion, it clearly shows a connection with the expansion of IE speakers. But the assumption that it originated around the Caucasus just seems incorrect.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  8. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Liburnians are no longer considered Illyrians by linguists but part of the celto-italic branch close to venetic. Also you keep defining cetina as the illyrian culture when linguistically what are called illyrians proper do not fit into cetina.

    Its totally irrelevent if they identified as illyrians since we are talking about illyrian as a linguist category, aka a language. Many slavophone tribes likewise would not say i am a slav, but that is the term we use to refer to the language group. Likewise, Messapic is satem, and illyrian proper, not Liburnian, was most likely satem. We dont have any writing, but messapic and glosses like Birzimium point to satem.

    So your argument about proto-albanian ev13 not being "illyrian" rests on redefining the term illyrian to mean liburnian, which is not correct.
    Liburnians were I believe pred. PH1246 and some other older clades, yes. Liburnian culture preserved some of Cetina elements. It's archaeology that speaks of them mostly. They were a group different to the other groups, though they had Delmatae influence. Now Venetic classification as Italo-Celtic is not certain, that might have been some Bell-Beaker remnant language as well.

    I think Western-Serbian Vatina culture is considered to be proto-Illyrian (among others) and these are either descendants of Belotic-Bela Crkva (offshoot of Cetina) and Vatin (which had Bubanj-Hum III substrate again ofshoot of Cetina) and in the Vatin group also belong other closely related cultures such as Verbicioara in Romania etc. West-Serbian Vatin elements migrated to South Albanian area pushed by the Unrfield movement. This is also attested archaeologically. And this is where more V13 is present in Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.
    Attachment 11432
    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.

    There are 57 public Greek results on the Em35 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    Of the E results:

    17 are too low resolution to speculate from which direction.
    14 are not even european (EV22, etc).
    15 are Albanian (medieval) or entered greece with proto-Albanians
    6 are securely non greek, but unclear whether entered greece with Celts, Illryians, or Thracians.
    Only 5 are greek, and these seem to be a pontic cluster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.
    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.

    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.
    Ev13 is clearly a minority clade among celts, and the "hallstatt" that you are claiming is obviously non-celt illyrians that must have been celticized. FGC3362 parent clade S2979 has plenty of Albanians that don't fit any "celtic" origin, so the A10158 clade was illyrian that tagged along with celts, something like the large percentage of Arvanites that today are greeks and 200 years ago weren't.

    Please stop the nonsense with the "illyrian culture didnt exist before 7th century BC". We know that the messapic colonization happened arount 12th Century BC, and that they are a "illyric" language, meaning the language is securely in the balkans and south italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.

    This is not my "conclusion". This is a theory that is on the rise from professional scholars, and it relates to the Luwian and Albanian issue of distinguishing the three series of IE stops. The oldest linguists that supported something like this were Pedersen, Budimir, and now there is Martin J. Kmmel, (2007), Konsonantenwandel. This retaining is also argued by enough scholars to be evident in Armenian, although there are detractors that don't want this and argue strongly against it.

    Budimir also argued that the Doric dialects of Greek showed an adstratum of a language that distinguished the three series (aka Albanian).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    There are 57 public Greek results on the Em35 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    Of the E results:

    17 are too low resolution to speculate from which direction.
    14 are not even european (EV22, etc).
    15 are Albanian (medieval) or entered greece with proto-Albanians
    6 are securely non greek, but unclear whether entered greece with Celts, Illryians, or Thracians.
    Only 5 are greek, and these seem to be a pontic cluster.
    The E-Z5018 sample (Jonuzi) which was put under "Undefined Non-Greek" is actually a Cam Albanian from Filiates. The BY4684 and Z19851 samples could potentially be of Vlach or Albanian/Arvanite origin, Z19851 is found among Vlachs and has been found among some Arbereshe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek.
    Ossetian is an Indo-Iranian language. That would make it more likely to be an indo-iranian lineage than a "proto-greek" one. Also, Ossetia is barely "north caucauses". Its split on both sides of the mountain border between north and south. You can attempt to distort things in your favour but basic geography is a bit more transparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    There are 57 public Greek results on the Em35 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    Of the E results:

    17 are too low resolution to speculate from which direction.
    14 are not even european (EV22, etc).
    15 are Albanian (medieval) or entered greece with proto-Albanians
    6 are securely non greek, but unclear whether entered greece with Celts, Illryians, or Thracians.
    Only 5 are greek, and these seem to be a pontic cluster.
    Also, 8 results from Cyprus i forgot to put in. 4 are EV13 with no deeper classification, the rest are non-european EV22, M84.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The E-Z5018 sample (Jonuzi) which was put under "Undefined Non-Greek" is actually a Cam Albanian from Filiates. The BY4684 and Z19851 samples could potentially be of Vlach or Albanian/Arvanite origin, Z19851 is found among Vlachs and has been found among some Arbereshe.
    Err nope. Z19851 has an isolated cluster in East Serbia and Bulgaria (TMRCA 1400 ybp between them) which seems distant from this mobile Vlach cluster present in Vlachs, Albanians, Serbs of Bjelica tribe, Arberesh, Greeks. Your Albanian BY4684 has Vlach suffix -ul in his surname. He is at 4/37 with Greek from Gelibolu in Turkey. Meanwhile he is 7/37 with a Greek from Trikkala (that is Vlach). There is a Bulgarian BigY who shares with this Greek cluster 14 SNP's but doesn't share 13. So A lone cousin in Bulgaria 2000 ybp. In short BY4684* seems Thracian nothing to do with Illyrians, as is very likely Z19851. Just Vlachs in Eastern Balkans picked up this one cluster and spread it around Balkans.

    This is what I've been talking about so many "Illyrian this Illyrian that" people, you open up a fridge and might find an Illyrian helmet on a can these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Err nope. Z19851 has an isolated cluster in East Serbia and Bulgaria (TMRCA 1400 ybp between them) which seems distant from this mobile Vlach cluster present in Vlachs, Albanians, Serbs of Bjelica tribe, Arberesh, Greeks. Your Albanian BY4684 has Vlach suffix -ul in his surname. He is at 4/37 with Greek from Gelibolu in Turkey. Meanwhile he is 7/37 with a Greek from Trikkala (that is Vlach). There is a Bulgarian BigY who shares with this Greek cluster 14 SNP's but doesn't share 13. So A lone cousin in Bulgaria 2000 ybp. In short BY4684* seems Thracian nothing to do with Illyrians, as is very likely Z19851. Just Vlachs in Eastern Balkans picked up this one cluster and spread it around Balkans.

    This is what I've been talking about so many "Illyrian this Illyrian that" people, you open up a fridge and might find an Illyrian helmet on a can these days.
    By Albanian/Arvanite I meant that these Z19851 carriers were Albanian speakers when they arrived, if they were Vlachs originally is irrelevant to what I meant. The Albanian BY4684 guy has the suffix -uli at the end of his surname, a suffix which isn't too rare and is used when turning the first name of an ancestor into a surname (similar to -aj).

    Anyways, who said it's Illyrian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Ossetian is an Indo-Iranian language. That would make it more likely to be an indo-iranian lineage than a "proto-greek" one. Also, Ossetia is barely "north caucauses". Its split on both sides of the mountain border between north and south. You can attempt to distort things in your favour but basic geography is a bit more transparent.
    You know what's really interesting? Ossetians have cluster of CTS1273*, BY3880-. Ossetians also have a cluster R-Y5586 (confirmed Y5586+ I heard). Bulgarians have diversity of Y5586 going 4300 ybp, while this Ossetian cluster is not closer to that. Bulgarians also have highest basal diversity of CTS1273. The fact that Bulgarians have highest CTS1273 and Y5586 diversity and the fact that Ossetians (and not any of their neighbors) sport isolated clusters of CTS1273 and Y5586 might not be an accident. It might indicate CTS1273 and Y5586 have expanded in same/similar populations in Bronze Age. Why else thus far only Ossetians have these two isolated clades in the East?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    By Albanian/Arvanite I meant that these Z19851 carriers were Albanian speakers when they arrived, if they were Vlachs originally is irrelevant to what I meant. The Albanian BY4684 guy has the suffix -uli at the end of his surname, a suffix which isn't too rare and is used when turning the first name of an ancestor into a surname (similar to -aj).

    Anyways, who said it's Illyrian?
    Other than that guy I don't see any other Albanian having suffix -uli. For ex. Rasuli is Rasul + i. -i is a common Albanian suffix. This one looks like Vlach suffix -ul + Albanian suffix -i.

    I don't think it is Arvanite, as this one is very rare in Albanians, there is also some Greek from Malta so some might have older presence in Greek etnos. But this Greek being from Trikkala makes me think it is Vlach because Trikkala had strong Vlach influence. Also ofc. 4 Romanian Basarabi from Sibiu almost certainly belong to this cluster (dys439=13 + dys426=10 crucial STR's for this clade and identical haplotype) so this makes Vlach connection strong for E-FGC71980.

    Of Arvanites you'd expect some more common cluster such as FGC11450's which are present in Greeks and which closely cluster with Albanians.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Liburnians are no longer considered Illyrians by linguists but part of the celto-italic branch close to venetic. Also you keep defining cetina as the illyrian culture when linguistically what are called illyrians proper do not fit into cetina.

    Its totally irrelevent if they identified as illyrians since we are talking about illyrian as a linguist category, aka a language. Many slavophone tribes likewise would not say i am a slav, but that is the term we use to refer to the language group. Likewise, Messapic is satem, and illyrian proper, not Liburnian, was most likely satem. We dont have any writing, but messapic and glosses like Birzimium point to satem.

    So your argument about proto-albanian ev13 not being "illyrian" rests on redefining the term illyrian to mean liburnian, which is not correct.
    Liburnians were originally Illyrians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Other than that guy I don't see any other Albanian having suffix -uli. For ex. Rasuli is Rasul + i. -i is a common Albanian suffix. This one looks like Vlach suffix -ul + Albanian suffix -i.

    I don't think it is Arvanite, as this one is very rare in Albanians, there is also some Greek from Malta so some might have older presence in Greek etnos. But this Greek being from Trikkala makes me think it is Vlach because Trikkala had strong Vlach influence. Also ofc. 4 Romanian Basarabi from Sibiu almost certainly belong to this cluster (dys439=13 + dys426=10 crucial STR's for this clade and identical haplotype) so this makes Vlach connection strong for E-FGC71980.

    Of Arvanites you'd expect some more common cluster such as FGC11450's which are present in Greeks and which closely cluster with Albanians.
    First you would have to know what his surname meant for you to decide if it was of Aromanian/Vlach origin, from what I know there aren't any Aromanian words that could explain his surname. There are surnames similar to his found in other areas of Albania, making it likely that his surname could be a variant of those surnames.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I'm afraid realistic expansion of E-V13 is not going to favor either either Hellenic nor Albanian fixation on Illyrians (largely inherited from Enver Hohxa similar to Romanian Dacian fixation inherited from Ceausescu era). Cetina culture migrated to Central Balkans, while it basically dissapeared in its original territory without any inheritors. However some Dalmatian Illyrians like Liburni being more archaic likely had some older V13 clades. But those in Central Balkans had almost certainly something to do with Vatin culture. Either already in Cetina culture through strong Corded Ware influence from a R-Z280 clade (such as one basal Z280 without relatives for 4500 years found in Serbs) E-CTS1273 had picked up a Satem pre-proto Thracian language or this happened later in Vatin culture and closely related cultures (such as some in Romania).

    In late Bronze Age Urnfield invasion (primarily R-U152) and other movements triggered mass movements of a number of E-V13's and others. These movements are well attested, and involve likely Central-Balkan -> South Albania movement as well as Central/East-Balkan-> Greece movement. Subsequently there were likely other migrations into Greece. And ofc some Greek V13's migrated there in Middle Ages.

    Btw. according to some historians about 800/700 BC if you asked members of many Illyrian tribes "are you Illyrian?" alot of them would answer to you by "what is that?". And some southern tribes might have answered "ah those are our neighbor tribe but we are not Illyrians". Few centuries later they became Illyrian so don't get too fixated on this idea that Antiquity peoples stretched all the way to Bronze Age. In late Bronze Age Antiquity peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians did not exist in any way under those names.
    People said Albanians are Illyrians way before Enver Hoxha. Thunmann and Georg Von Hahn are pretty good examples. Georg Von Hahn did a linguistic approach on this and based on the genetic evidence we have of the Bronze Age J2b2-L283 and R1b he certainly seem to of been right. Nothing compareable to Romanian-Dacian.

    You forgot the South Slav obsession with ancient people of the Balkans which is even far worse.

    As for asking people back then if they were Illyrian, such a national unity or counsciousness back then did not even exist, they were people scattered in different tribes, such a term was used by their neighbors to describe them or people that spoke a similar language, costumes , culture etc.

    Based on the evidence so far both linguistically and genetically, they most certainly shared a common origin at one point.


    As for clustering, I have explained before that even the Albanian cluster is huge. Some people of the same population can cluster closer to other populations than some of their own for example yet share more ancestry with their own population obviously, speak the same language, culture etc.

    On mytrueancestry I get Kosovar at a distance of 10 which isn't even that of a good match yet I'm a Kosovar.

    Clustering is practically irrelevant.

    As for all this EV13 talk, the evidence is pretty scarce to reach to any conclusions yet, I can tell you. There isn't enough ancient DNA for that. Your claims are just assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xzit View Post
    As for all this EV13 talk, the evidence is pretty scarce to reach to any conclusions yet, I can tell you. There isn't enough ancient DNA for that.
    Yes. There is one E-Z1919 Thracian burial (at YFull stands as V13), and one E-CTS1273* Scythian (CTS9320-, Z5018- for sure) of very likely Getae origin looking by his autosomal profile (also R-Z2103 in similar context). Of course the sample is very low but it is what it is atm.

    Quote Originally Posted by xzit View Post
    Your claims are just assumptions.
    Based on facts, as well as current basal diversity alot can be said. But of E-V13 Cetina connection, that was postulated some time ago my an M35 admin, and I agree with it, in fact some facts speak against any other option.


    Quote Originally Posted by xzit View Post
    As for asking people back then if they were Illyrian, such a national unity or counsciousness back then did not even exist, they were people scattered in different tribes, such a term was used by their neighbors to describe them or people that spoke a similar language, costumes , culture etc.
    That what I was saying they identified primarily with their tribes. Later in Antiquity some tribes/individuals managed to unite them. For example Burebista united Dacians and Getae under Dacian kingdom, even though those two were not quite the same population, likely sporting different hg's and subclades of hg's. Even in Medieval times or after, in isolated Mountainous places such as Montenegro or Northern Albania tribal identification was primary identification until century ago.

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    R-Z2705 in Greeks?? That is actually very easy to determine owing to dys385, dys393, dys392 being present in (almost) all studies. And the sample is good as well. They pop up in most samples. Surprising they don't in Corinthia (no dys385 but 393 and 392 are of help too).

    3/191 Greek Macedonia; 1 x 392=11
    4/200 Greek regions , Western Macedonia (2), East Macedonia and Thrace, Hepirus ; 2 x 392=11
    2/100 19 STR Greeks; 1 x 392=11
    1/39 Greeks Thrace
    6/89 Greeks Asia Minor, Smyrna
    0/93 Euboea
    0/104 Corinthia
    2/113 Greek regions, Peloponnese, Central Greece
    5/109 23 STR Greeks
    3/105 23 STR Greeks Athens; 1 x 392=11
    7/290 FTDNA (no Pontic Greeks)
    ---------------
    0/574 Cyprus Greeks


    Mainland Greeks 33/1433 = 2.30 % , of those 5 (0.35 % R-BY105603 dys392=11)
    Cypriot Greeks 0/574

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    R-Z2705 in Greeks?? That is actually very easy to determine owing to dys385, dys393, dys392 being present in (almost) all studies. And the sample is good as well. They pop up in most samples. Surprising they don't in Corinthia (no dys385 but 393 and 392 are of help too).
    One reason may be that the authors avoided people of Arvanite ancestry whenever it was possible. Same thing goes for Euboea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    One reason may be that the authors avoided people of Arvanite ancestry whenever it was possible. Same thing goes for Euboea.
    That was Tofanelli et al. 2016 "The Greeks in the West", weird how they appear in every sample except two from that study. But authors were Italian so I doubt there was any foul play, especially as Italians did Arberesh study.

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