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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #1551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    That was Tofanelli et al. 2016 "The Greeks in the West", weird how they appear in every sample except two from that study.
    I know. They specifically mention avoiding Arvanites in the sample: "During the sample collection, attention was given to this issue: individuals who self-reported as Arvanite were excluded from the analysis."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But authors were Italian so I doubt there was any foul play, especially as Italians did Arberesh study.
    Why would there be any foul play?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I know. They specifically mention avoiding Arvanites in the sample: "During the sample collection, attention was given to this issue: individuals who self-reported as Arvanite were excluded from the analysis."
    Ah well that study was about Greek colonisation and Arvanites weren't Greek colonists so it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Why would there be any foul play?
    I thought you implied someone was avoiding Arvanites, which was the case as you pointed but not for any ulterior motives. :) I didn't read that portion, I'm mostly interested in STR's. That increases R-Z2705 to 2.67 in Greeks based on other samples. 2.41 at FTDNA. 2.75 % from studies.
    If not for that I suspect percentage in both Corinthia and Euboea would have been pretty high. In Turkish defter from late 15th century Euboea had lots of Albanian first names.

    Btw I heard one dys393=12, dys456=13 (Banja Luka) ordered BigY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Btw I heard one dys393=12, dys456=13 (Banja Luka) ordered BigY.
    Looking forward to that one being on YFull. I believe it will be R-BY147912-.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Err nope. Z19851 has an isolated cluster in East Serbia and Bulgaria (TMRCA 1400 ybp between them) which seems distant from this mobile Vlach cluster present in Vlachs, Albanians, Serbs of Bjelica tribe, Arberesh, Greeks. Your Albanian BY4684 has Vlach suffix -ul in his surname. He is at 4/37 with Greek from Gelibolu in Turkey. Meanwhile he is 7/37 with a Greek from Trikkala (that is Vlach). There is a Bulgarian BigY who shares with this Greek cluster 14 SNP's but doesn't share 13. So A lone cousin in Bulgaria 2000 ybp. In short BY4684* seems Thracian nothing to do with Illyrians, as is very likely Z19851. Just Vlachs in Eastern Balkans picked up this one cluster and spread it around Balkans.

    This is what I've been talking about so many "Illyrian this Illyrian that" people, you open up a fridge and might find an Illyrian helmet on a can these days.
    Some Serbs/Montenegrins belonging to A18833 from what I have seen claim to be with origin from Albania (descendants of Skenderbeg etc).

    Shoshi and Bobi from Dukagjin should belong to this cluster as well, and they don’t appear to be close to each other either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Some Serbs/Montenegrins belonging to A18833 from what I have seen claim to be with origin from Albania (descendants of Skenderbeg etc).


    Shoshi and Bobi from Dukagjin should belong to this cluster as well, and they don’t appear to be close to each other either.

    Those are Bjelica tribe. They used to have some Kuci tradition, but obviously they are not Kuchi. Nor do they descend from that area, because Bjelice are attested in their current area (SW Montenegro) in 1430, whereas Kuchi area was first mentioned in 1455 as tribe and they were newcomers back then. But considering these haplotypes pop up n Arbereshe I guess Bjelice have origin from the southeast. Also in their tribal area in 15th century I've noticed few Albanian/Vlach names. Noted was knez Shimrak (from Shin Mark), Bokur (Romanian/Aromanian) etc. There is this cluster A18833, and there is this E-Y172393, Serb from Eastern Serbia and a Bulgarian. They only share 2 SNP's, but unusual value (one of) they do share is dys635=22, practically all A18833 have 23 and from what I've noticed all such Greek, Arberesh haplotypes also have 23, so that makes me think all of these will eventually end up as A18833+. What I call one of these widespread and "mobile" clusters. Not sure what the older value on that STR is as upstream Z19851 clades have both.

  6. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I have already touched upon this in the following comment, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page51?p=583559&viewfull=1#post583559. Here is the segment that relates again.
    "
    By the way, the Mycenaean (as in Linear B form), of ancient Greek (Attic) and Ionic "Μυκῆναι ( Mukênai)", is "Mu-ka-nai", therefore more similar. The Doric form would also be "Μυκᾶναι (Mukânai)". And also take into account that the "ai" at the end of all signifies plurality. The singular form would be "Mukêne" (Attic/Ionic), "Mukâna" (Doric), and "Mu-ka-na" (Linear B). Last, the word "Mycenae" simply refers to a powerful citadel/region in north-eastern Peloponnese, neither the capital city of what we have contemporarily termed Mycenaean civilization, nor a historical collective ethnonym. Mycenaean citadels/regions were all independent from each other, while real collective ethnonyms for the Mycenaeans, as preserved through the Homeric Epics, the Hittite records, and the Egyptian records, were the ethnonyms "Achaeans", "Danaans", and "Argives". And besides that, Mycenaeans, which were comprised of what we would call in the Archaic/Classical periods the Aeolians, Achaeans, and Ionians, were not the only Greeks in existence. Dorians were also Greeks, but not originally part of the Mycenaean civilization, since they lived in the Pindus mountain range as pastoralists.".
    ok cool, informative. why the "u" instead of "y" ?

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

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