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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    That was Tofanelli et al. 2016 "The Greeks in the West", weird how they appear in every sample except two from that study.
    I know. They specifically mention avoiding Arvanites in the sample: "During the sample collection, attention was given to this issue: individuals who self-reported as Arvanite were excluded from the analysis."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But authors were Italian so I doubt there was any foul play, especially as Italians did Arberesh study.
    Why would there be any foul play?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I know. They specifically mention avoiding Arvanites in the sample: "During the sample collection, attention was given to this issue: individuals who self-reported as Arvanite were excluded from the analysis."
    Ah well that study was about Greek colonisation and Arvanites weren't Greek colonists so it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Why would there be any foul play?
    I thought you implied someone was avoiding Arvanites, which was the case as you pointed but not for any ulterior motives. :) I didn't read that portion, I'm mostly interested in STR's. That increases R-Z2705 to 2.67 in Greeks based on other samples. 2.41 at FTDNA. 2.75 % from studies.
    If not for that I suspect percentage in both Corinthia and Euboea would have been pretty high. In Turkish defter from late 15th century Euboea had lots of Albanian first names.

    Btw I heard one dys393=12, dys456=13 (Banja Luka) ordered BigY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Btw I heard one dys393=12, dys456=13 (Banja Luka) ordered BigY.
    Looking forward to that one being on YFull. I believe it will be R-BY147912-.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Err nope. Z19851 has an isolated cluster in East Serbia and Bulgaria (TMRCA 1400 ybp between them) which seems distant from this mobile Vlach cluster present in Vlachs, Albanians, Serbs of Bjelica tribe, Arberesh, Greeks. Your Albanian BY4684 has Vlach suffix -ul in his surname. He is at 4/37 with Greek from Gelibolu in Turkey. Meanwhile he is 7/37 with a Greek from Trikkala (that is Vlach). There is a Bulgarian BigY who shares with this Greek cluster 14 SNP's but doesn't share 13. So A lone cousin in Bulgaria 2000 ybp. In short BY4684* seems Thracian nothing to do with Illyrians, as is very likely Z19851. Just Vlachs in Eastern Balkans picked up this one cluster and spread it around Balkans.

    This is what I've been talking about so many "Illyrian this Illyrian that" people, you open up a fridge and might find an Illyrian helmet on a can these days.
    Some Serbs/Montenegrins belonging to A18833 from what I have seen claim to be with origin from Albania (descendants of Skenderbeg etc).

    Shoshi and Bobi from Dukagjin should belong to this cluster as well, and they don’t appear to be close to each other either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Some Serbs/Montenegrins belonging to A18833 from what I have seen claim to be with origin from Albania (descendants of Skenderbeg etc).


    Shoshi and Bobi from Dukagjin should belong to this cluster as well, and they don’t appear to be close to each other either.

    Those are Bjelica tribe. They used to have some Kuci tradition, but obviously they are not Kuchi. Nor do they descend from that area, because Bjelice are attested in their current area (SW Montenegro) in 1430, whereas Kuchi area was first mentioned in 1455 as tribe and they were newcomers back then. But considering these haplotypes pop up n Arbereshe I guess Bjelice have origin from the southeast. Also in their tribal area in 15th century I've noticed few Albanian/Vlach names. Noted was knez Shimrak (from Shin Mark), Bokur (Romanian/Aromanian) etc. There is this cluster A18833, and there is this E-Y172393, Serb from Eastern Serbia and a Bulgarian. They only share 2 SNP's, but unusual value (one of) they do share is dys635=22, practically all A18833 have 23 and from what I've noticed all such Greek, Arberesh haplotypes also have 23, so that makes me think all of these will eventually end up as A18833+. What I call one of these widespread and "mobile" clusters. Not sure what the older value on that STR is as upstream Z19851 clades have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I have already touched upon this in the following comment, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page51?p=583559&viewfull=1#post583559. Here is the segment that relates again.
    "
    By the way, the Mycenaean (as in Linear B form), of ancient Greek (Attic) and Ionic "Μυκῆναι ( Mukênai)", is "Mu-ka-nai", therefore more similar. The Doric form would also be "Μυκᾶναι (Mukânai)". And also take into account that the "ai" at the end of all signifies plurality. The singular form would be "Mukêne" (Attic/Ionic), "Mukâna" (Doric), and "Mu-ka-na" (Linear B). Last, the word "Mycenae" simply refers to a powerful citadel/region in north-eastern Peloponnese, neither the capital city of what we have contemporarily termed Mycenaean civilization, nor a historical collective ethnonym. Mycenaean citadels/regions were all independent from each other, while real collective ethnonyms for the Mycenaeans, as preserved through the Homeric Epics, the Hittite records, and the Egyptian records, were the ethnonyms "Achaeans", "Danaans", and "Argives". And besides that, Mycenaeans, which were comprised of what we would call in the Archaic/Classical periods the Aeolians, Achaeans, and Ionians, were not the only Greeks in existence. Dorians were also Greeks, but not originally part of the Mycenaean civilization, since they lived in the Pindus mountain range as pastoralists.".
    ok cool, informative. why the "u" instead of "y" ?

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    ok cool, informative. why the "u" instead of "y" ?
    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
    It's the way "Mycenaean" is spelled in original Greek mate. Even though today it is written like that in modern Greek as well, the "u" has taken an "i" sound and would sound like the "y" in the English word. This phenomenon is called Iotacism, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism.

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    @Ralphie Boy
    You write, "Sorry for not including the link. It’s a study arguing for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, moving from the Aegean and Mediterranean on northward through the Greek mainland and then further north. This study shows the apparent clustering of two modern Peloponnesian Greek populations with Sicilians, and closeness to modern Crete and Dodecanese, in one of the maps.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211".
    Very nice, i will have to study it more closely. As for the maritime Neolithic colonization of southern Europe, it appears almost certain when you consider that the people of the Aegean were very likely the first who ever developed seafaring traditions, beginning from 130,000 years ago. We actually have suggestive evidence for this. But also think about it, wouldn’t it make sense for seafaring traditions to have been evolved from quite early in the Aegean, where the natural geography (islands, close proximity, high visibility, etc.) might have inspired the people to want to travel by Sea, in order to reach these isolated places? It isn't really a coincidence that the first historical thalassocracies were by the Aegean populations of the Minoans, and then their fellow Mycenaeans.


    You write, "The late population genetics pioneer L.L. Cavalli-Sforza I think wrote that earlier migrations were the most important, because of less population density.".

    Can't recall, but it is very true, especially in the case of the first Neolithic agricultural communities which definitely saw a significant population growth, in contrast to the earlier hunter-gathering communities which were always more or less at a stable equilibrium, or in other words with near-zero population growth.

    You write, "The more recent migrations, like in Medieval times, had less impact because of greater population density of indigenous people. His study found the stronger Neolithic component in the southeast Mediterranean, just like these newer studies, where newer migrations added to but didn’t replace the older genes.".

    Indeed.

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    @Ownstyler
    You write, "Macedonia and its western regions had many different ethnic groups until the early 20th century, including Albanians (ex: in Loechovo, Drosopigi/Belkameni, Flampouro/Nevogan, etc.).".
    I am aware of this mate, still though not as many when compared to the other regions, and most of them were very close to the tri-point modern boundary of Albania, North Macedonia, and Greece, namely the Prespes.

    You write, "
    It is actually not that low. In Bosch 2006, Katsaloulis 2013, Robino 2004, Parreira 2002 & Kovatsi 2013, R1b-BY611 is ~2% in Greece (Albanians have 10-15%), and a bit higher in the areas I mentioned. It is only absent in the islands.".
    Still though, i don't consider ~2% as significant bearing in mind that the general frequencies of R1b-M269 (of which R-Z2103 is the most prevalent) are the following throughout Greece. Although i understand your point.
    North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 13%
    Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 11.5%
    South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 20.5%
    Crete: 15%
    Aegean Islands: 19%

    You write, "
    and in West Macedonia (there is a relatively high percentage all around the Ohrid and Prespa Lakes).".
    Which again i view as very natural. If by West Macedonia you mostly meant the region surrounding the Prespa lakes, then yes. Sure, up until the beginning of the 20th century the region of Macedonia was home to many people, but a number of population exchanges and other less fortunate things (such as in the case of the Jews in Thessaloniki) have considerably affected the area.

    You write, "
    On YHRD, a modal R-BY611 is the 4th most common haplotype among >1000 results in Greece.".
    Most common R1b-Z2103 haplotype?

    You write, "
    I meant when the mrca of a possible Greek cluster there. The current mrca of the clade includes all over Europe and even the Middle East. If you don't know of a cluster dominated by Greeks within this branch, you cannot say if this line reached Greece 5200, 3000, or 200 years ago.".
    You are right. Do you know of any such Greek cluster within R-KMS67? What is interesting is that other than the Greek R-KMS67*, we also have an Italian who is also from a region with a significant historical Greek presence, namely Reggio Calabria, the second oldest Greek colony of southern Italy, which even today has a considerable Greek minority.

    You write, "
    The Greek and Bulgarian samples currently under E-BY3880 have no calls for two important subclades below: E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. They might very well fall into one of those two. Only the Italian sample is certainly E-VBY3880*. ".
    Which again, the Italian sample is placed at a known Greek colony in Sicily, namely Messina, which is in fact next to the aforementioned Reggio. I personally see this as corroboration.
    Last edited by Demetrios; 29-09-19 at 05:32.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "Nope it doesn't, by this logic it should've expanded also from Albania. CTS1273* has shown up in the Balkans, the result I'm referring to is my maternal uncle, they are from the Dibra-Librazhd area. Not every CTS1273* sample has been uploaded to Yfull.".
    I can only evaluate what i see uploaded. Even if there is actually a CTS1273* that is found in the Dibra-Librazhd area, i would very much like to see it. In any case though, it still doesn't negate its proto-Greek connection, it only corroborates it. It could very well be a palaeo-Balkan IE line out of which proto-Greek sprang. You also have to consider that in fact, the widespread proto-Greek region is very close to the Librazhd area.


    As for the other point, the thing is that the logic of hailing from northern Caucasus is actually based on the prevalent hypothesis that proto-Greek expanded from Catacomb. And in general, most if not all IE groups likewise. We don't know of any similar expansion toward northern Caucasus from the Balkans during 2500 BCE.


    You write, "The Jewish sample isn't Ashkenazi iirc, he is from Turkey, but it's highly likely that his paternal side came from Europe. Y-DNA has shown that the Khazars have nothing to do with modern day Ashkenazis.".

    In the thread i am referring to, @Aspurg writes that id:ERS1789480 is from an Askhenazi individual.

    Furthermore, the origin of Askhenazi Jews is a whole topic of its own, but there have been hypotheses that place their origin on the eastern Pontic mountains (very close to Pontic Greeks in fact) of Turkey as well as southern Europe, in addition to Levantine origins of course. In any case, it is known that Khazars had embraced the Jewish religion, therefore it's not that unreasonable to consider that some might have migrated and joined the Ashkenazim of Eastern Europe once their Khaganate had fallen.


    You write, "The fact that CTS1273 has little to no diversity in the Caucasus or surrounding areas make it extremely unlikely for it to have origin there, the most likely scenario is that CTS1273 originated in the Balkans but a branch migrated to the Eastern European steppe area, where it was assimilated.".

    This isn't corroborated at all archaeologically or linguistically, other than genetics the evidence shows quite the opposite rather. The fact that it is also widespread throughout Europe, points to the migrations of Indo-Europeans that began from northern Caucasus or the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    You write, "Y30977 does have pretty clear origin in the Balkans. It's most diverse in the Western Balkans, most frequent in the Balkans and it's basal clades show up most in the Balkans as well. Unlike, CTS1273, Y30977 doesn't seem to have been picked up by IE speakers, it remained in the Balkans for longer.".

    I don't see any E-Y30977* sample, therefore i don't know how you come to such a conclusion. You are obviously referring to its daughter clade E-Y37092*, which has been found in Greece and Montenegro. It would be nice to know the background of the American E-Y30976* (which is the sister clade of E-Y37092), since E-Y30976 seems to have an Eastern European/Caucasian distribution, and it formed likewise 4100 ybp.

    You write, "You need to specify which clades you're referring to, the BY3880 guy is actually Z5018* it's just that his analysis hasn't finished. Z5018 has a TMRCA of ~3,700ybp and seems to be most diverse in areas north of Greece. As for Y37092, this branch remained in the Western Balkans so it's possible that Proto-Greeks picked it up when they arrived in the Balkans.".

    I am referring to E-BY3880*, which is present in an Italian of most likely Greek origin. Again, we don't have a E-Y30977* sample to be certain about E-Y37092*'s original regional source, but it does look to have a Pontic-Caspian IE source when you also consider the distribution of the related E-Y30976.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Aspurg
    You write, "
    Greek BY3880* is an ethnic Bulgarian and he's Z5018+ at FTDNA in cluster with a Czech.".
    How do you know this? Not that it would make any difference in my current view, considering that the Italian E-BY3880* very likely had a Greek origin.

    You write, "
    It seems alot of Greek V13's are LBA/EIA arrivals, so connected with Mycenean collapse. There are some cultures such as Gârla Mare from SW Romania that according to some Russian archaeologists was proto-Dorian, and certain clades under E-Y3183 seem to fit that pattern, as might L241. And these are also sister clades. Many have connected central European R1b's to Dorians, in particular high percentage in areas of Crete. These belong to R-Y4354 subclade, they have no relation to Bulgarian nor they have any close relation to Ugarak clan from Eastern Herzegovina belonging to this clade. There is also one Romanian from a study who is R-Y4354 and he too is very isolated, but he is from Dolj which is close to Gârla Mare. But it makes no sense phylogenetically that an R1b L51 would speak the Greek language, these were the Urnfield people speaking language related to Celto-Italic who picked up Dorian from someone else, who might have been that? I'm thinking L241 and some clades under it's sister clade Y3183. There is also some presence of L584 in both Greeks and Romania who should be related to Phrygians who in turn are supposed to be related to Greeks.".
    It is certain that Dorians were part of the proto-Greeks and not some people who evolved their own version of Greek or even might have adopted it from someone else. At least from a linguistic point of view this is certain, because of the many proto-Greek archaisms that had already been lost to most other dialects of Greek, and because if it was indeed an adoption by some other new migrants, you would at least expect some considerable foreign substrate, in this case Celtic, something which is absent from Doric and ancient Greek in general. This linguistic point might also suggest that the Celtic E-V13s that arrived in Greece during the LBA/EIA period, were most probably not significant initially. I don't know the frequency of them today, but at least during their arrival they must have been few.


    PostScript: As you have read i am also supporting the Pontic-Caspian steppe origin of E-CTS1273, and in general i agree with many of the other things you write.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Johane Derite
    You write, "There are 57 public Greek results on the Em35 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    Of the E results:
    17 are too low resolution to speculate from which direction.
    14 are not even european (EV22, etc).
    15 are Albanian (medieval) or entered greece with proto-Albanians
    6 are securely non greek, but unclear whether entered greece with Celts, Illryians, or Thracians.
    Only 5 are greek, and these seem to be a pontic cluster.".
    What kind of false designations are these? This guy whoever he is (i have my obvious hypotheses) designates E-BY14151, E-PH1246, E-BY4281 as Albanian or proto-Albanian, which very obviously aren't. Please genius, share with as the source of this nonsense. It's not a coincidence that the only Greek he designates is the Pontian cluster.


    The only actual Albanian origin that i see is E-Y92017. And even E-BY4914 is actually a Bulgarian sample and presented as of Albanian origin (I guess Thracian descendants don't exist). And that's just the ones i quickly checked.


    Also, many of the so-called Non-European don't even have a Greek name. I mean, Sadoc Russo, Solomon Eskenazi, Moshe Haim? And even the Greek ones which are supposedly per the author Non-European, belong for example to E-M84 which was most probably from the Neolithic farmers and is in fact seen throughout Europe. Again, these are just the ones i quickly checked. This presentation smells from top to bottom, i am referring to the designations. Some of these clades are the ones we are debating here, and this guy simply designates them as Albanian or proto-Albanian.


    You write, "Please stop the nonsense with the "illyrian culture didnt exist before 7th century BC". We know that the messapic colonization happened arount 12th Century BC, and that they are a "illyric" language, meaning the language is securely in the balkans and south italy.".

    The Messapian colonization happened during the 9th-8th centuries BCE (which wouldn't in fact alter my aforementioned narrative), and even their language isn't verified as Illyrian only hypothesized, which even if it were, it wouldn't again really alter my hypothesis. And by the way, the 7th century BCE statement is not my nonsense, but John Wilkes's, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#Archaeology.

    You write, "This is not my "conclusion". This is a theory that is on the rise from professional scholars, and it relates to the Luwian and Albanian issue of distinguishing the three series of IE stops. The oldest linguists that supported something like this were Pedersen, Budimir, and now there is Martin J. Kmmel, (2007), Konsonantenwandel. This retaining is also argued by enough scholars to be evident in Armenian, although there are detractors that don't want this and argue strongly against it.".

    How would that pertain to Satemized languages such as Iranian or Slavic being more conservative? And where do you see these aforementioned authors claiming something like this, namely that Satemized languages are more conservative? It would cancel the very meaning of the word Satemized. By the way, i also know of Wikipedia, i read what it says.

    You write, "Ossetian is an Indo-Iranian language. That would make it more likely to be an indo-iranian lineage than a "proto-greek" one. Also, Ossetia is barely "north caucauses". Its split on both sides of the mountain border between north and south. You can attempt to distort things in your favour but basic geography is a bit more transparent.".

    Just because we find it in Ossetia doesn't suggest it is more likely an Indo-Iranian original line. Just like the reason we find it in an Ashkenazi Jew doesn't suggest it is a Jewish original line. This region was where most if not all IEs began from. As for the Ossetia not being encompassed by Catacomb, excuse me for the mistake, LOL. Even if it borders Catacomb, it still indicates the same thing, namely that this line originated from the Pontic-Caspian steppe (north of Caucasus), out of which Ossetians also came before ending up where they did.

    You write, "Also, 8 results from Cyprus i forgot to put in. 4 are EV13 with no deeper classification, the rest are non-european EV22, M84.".

    So you are the genius with the designations? Not really a surprise there.
    Last edited by Demetrios; 29-09-19 at 05:28. Reason: "top to bottom" not "bottom down"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    (...) Ζραικῆς (referring to a Thracian strategy) as rendered in Greek, read as Zrayka in Thracian and could have been the native Thracian word for the ethnonym “Thracian”. (...)
    It is also a strange resemblance between the words Thrace - Thraecia(latin) - troika. "Thraecia" in Latin was pronounced very similar with "troika". Could this have any meaning? What if the name "Thraecia" referred to an alliance between three large related populations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "Nope it doesn't, by this logic it should've expanded also from Albania. CTS1273* has shown up in the Balkans, the result I'm referring to is my maternal uncle, they are from the Dibra-Librazhd area. Not every CTS1273* sample has been uploaded to Yfull.".
    I can only evaluate what i see uploaded. Even if there is actually a CTS1273* that is found in the Dibra-Librazhd area, i would very much like to see it. In any case though, it still doesn't negate its proto-Greek connection, it only corroborates it. It could very well be a palaeo-Balkan IE line out of which proto-Greek sprang. You also have to consider that in fact, the widespread proto-Greek region is very close to the Librazhd area.


    As for the other point, the thing is that the logic of hailing from northern Caucasus is actually based on the prevalent hypothesis that proto-Greek expanded from Catacomb. And in general, most if not all IE groups likewise. We don't know of any similar expansion toward northern Caucasus from the Balkans during 2500 BCE.


    You write, "The Jewish sample isn't Ashkenazi iirc, he is from Turkey, but it's highly likely that his paternal side came from Europe. Y-DNA has shown that the Khazars have nothing to do with modern day Ashkenazis.".

    In the thread i am referring to, @Aspurg writes that id:ERS1789480 is from an Askhenazi individual.

    Furthermore, the origin of Askhenazi Jews is a whole topic of its own, but there have been hypotheses that place their origin on the eastern Pontic mountains (very close to Pontic Greeks in fact) of Turkey as well as southern Europe, in addition to Levantine origins of course. In any case, it is known that Khazars had embraced the Jewish religion, therefore it's not that unreasonable to consider that some might have migrated and joined the Ashkenazim of Eastern Europe once their Khaganate had fallen.


    You write, "The fact that CTS1273 has little to no diversity in the Caucasus or surrounding areas make it extremely unlikely for it to have origin there, the most likely scenario is that CTS1273 originated in the Balkans but a branch migrated to the Eastern European steppe area, where it was assimilated.".

    This isn't corroborated at all archaeologically or linguistically, other than genetics the evidence shows quite the opposite rather. The fact that it is also widespread throughout Europe, points to the migrations of Indo-Europeans that began from northern Caucasus or the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    You write, "Y30977 does have pretty clear origin in the Balkans. It's most diverse in the Western Balkans, most frequent in the Balkans and it's basal clades show up most in the Balkans as well. Unlike, CTS1273, Y30977 doesn't seem to have been picked up by IE speakers, it remained in the Balkans for longer.".

    I don't see any E-Y30977* sample, therefore i don't know how you come to such a conclusion. You are obviously referring to its daughter clade E-Y37092*, which has been found in Greece and Montenegro. It would be nice to know the background of the American E-Y30976* (which is the sister clade of E-Y37092), since E-Y30976 seems to have an Eastern European/Caucasian distribution, and it formed likewise 4100 ybp.

    You write, "You need to specify which clades you're referring to, the BY3880 guy is actually Z5018* it's just that his analysis hasn't finished. Z5018 has a TMRCA of ~3,700ybp and seems to be most diverse in areas north of Greece. As for Y37092, this branch remained in the Western Balkans so it's possible that Proto-Greeks picked it up when they arrived in the Balkans.".

    I am referring to E-BY3880*, which is present in an Italian of most likely Greek origin. Again, we don't have a E-Y30977* sample to be certain about E-Y37092*'s original regional source, but it does look to have a Pontic-Caspian IE source when you also consider the distribution of the related E-Y30976.
    There seems to be some kind of a misunderstanding. I'm not saying that CTS1273 didn't expand from the Western Pontic steppe region, I'm saying that CTS1273 originated in the Balkans but ended up migrating to the Western steppe pretty early on. The sample from Dibra has tested via the V13 SNP pack, he is negative for all of the CTS1273 subclades, however BY3880 wasn't tested so we don't know if he is BY3880*. His BigY failed quality control so we won't know for quite some time, though based on STRs he isn't close to anyone else (no matches on 111, 67 or 37 markers). The sample is my maternal uncle btw.

    One of the E-M35 project admins has said that the Jewish sample is actually from Turkey. There are some Ashkenazi Jews that migrated to Turkey from Central Europe, so he could be Ashkenazi. Should also note that the Ottoman Empire had many Sephardic and Romaniote Jews. Anyways, his paternal line is most certainly of European origin. As for the origin of Ashkenazi or Sephardic Jews, it is either Italy or some place in the Aegean (Italy is more likely) based on genetics. Check this out https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tine-admixture.

    For CTS1273 to have origins in the Caucasus or steppe itself, it would have to have high diversity there. CTS1273 has highest diversity in the Balkans (especially Bulgaria) and also has many basal clades. Plus, we have quite a few aDNA samples from the Caucasus, none of them were V13. I agree that the MRCA of CTS1273 expanded from someplace close to the steppe, but the clade itself didn't originate there.

    Y30977 also is most diverse in the Balkans, the fact that its basal clades (Y37092*) show up there also suggests a Balkan origin. Most of the Y30977 around Eastern Europe is in fact of Balkan origin, as was suggested by Aspurg and the Moldovan samples.

    Sure the Proto or Early Greeks could've had V13 clades that took part in their ethnogenesis, nobody is denying that. I'm just saying that many of the clades (CTS9320, FGC11450 etc) are of foreign origin (LBA and EIA arrivals)
    Ydna: J-ZS241

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    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Johane Derite
    You write, "There are 57 public Greek results on the Em35 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    Of the E results:
    17 are too low resolution to speculate from which direction.
    14 are not even european (EV22, etc).
    15 are Albanian (medieval) or entered greece with proto-Albanians
    6 are securely non greek, but unclear whether entered greece with Celts, Illryians, or Thracians.
    Only 5 are greek, and these seem to be a pontic cluster.".
    What kind of false designations are these? This guy whoever he is (i have my obvious hypotheses) designates E-BY14151, E-PH1246, E-BY4281 as Albanian or proto-Albanian, which very obviously aren't. Please genius, share with as the source of this nonsense. It's not a coincidence that the only Greek he designates is the Pontian cluster.


    The only actual Albanian origin that i see is E-Y92017. And even E-BY4914 is actually a Bulgarian sample and presented as of Albanian origin (I guess Thracian descendants don't exist). And that's just the ones i quickly checked.


    Also, many of the so-called Non-European don't even have a Greek name. I mean, Sadoc Russo, Solomon Eskenazi, Moshe Haim? And even the Greek ones which are supposedly per the author Non-European, belong for example to E-M84 which was most probably from the Neolithic farmers and is in fact seen throughout Europe. Again, these are just the ones i quickly checked. This presentation smells from the bottom down, i am referring to the designations. Some of these clades are the ones we are debating here, and this guy simply designates them as Albanian or proto-Albanian.
    Y92017 isn't the only clade there that is of Albanian/Arvanite origin. The FGC11450 clades (Y173822, Y146086 etc) are likely of Arvanite origin, they match our FGC11450 Albanian samples pretty closely. FGC11450 itself seems pretty diverse in Albanians and basal clades show up among us. The E-Z5018 sample is in fact an ethnic Albanian from Filiates.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post

    What kind of false designations are these? This guy whoever he is (i have my obvious hypotheses) designates E-BY14151, E-PH1246, E-BY4281 as Albanian or proto-Albanian, which very obviously aren't. Please genius, share with as the source of this nonsense. It's not a coincidence that the only Greek he designates is the Pontian cluster
    Definitely not as crazy as your ridiculous idea of the possible CTS1273* found in North Albania corroborating its proto-Greek origin.

    Anyway, here is why he mentioned these clusters: Montenegrin/Serb PH1246 samples are from southern Montenegro, and both clans have traditions that relate them to Albanian clans. Y37092* are Vasojevici who believe to be related to multiple Albanian clans (Hoti, Krasniqi etc). While the Serb under BY14160 (Rajovici) claim to have their origin from the Albanian clan Kuqi/Kuci.
    Last edited by Leka; 24-09-19 at 01:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Those are Bjelica tribe. They used to have some Kuci tradition, but obviously they are not Kuchi. Nor do they descend from that area, because Bjelice are attested in their current area (SW Montenegro) in 1430, whereas Kuchi area was first mentioned in 1455 as tribe and they were newcomers back then. But considering these haplotypes pop up n Arbereshe I guess Bjelice have origin from the southeast. Also in their tribal area in 15th century I've noticed few Albanian/Vlach names. Noted was knez Shimrak (from Shin Mark), Bokur (Romanian/Aromanian) etc. There is this cluster A18833, and there is this E-Y172393, Serb from Eastern Serbia and a Bulgarian. They only share 2 SNP's, but unusual value (one of) they do share is dys635=22, practically all A18833 have 23 and from what I've noticed all such Greek, Arberesh haplotypes also have 23, so that makes me think all of these will eventually end up as A18833+. What I call one of these widespread and "mobile" clusters. Not sure what the older value on that STR is as upstream Z19851 clades have both.
    It’s possible that these Bjelica might be from Shosh instead.

    We should get Bobi’s BigY soon, btw. We did get his Y111, and he has some off modals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bâști View Post
    It is also a strange resemblance between the words Thrace - Thraecia(latin) - troika. "Thraecia" in Latin was pronounced very similar with "troika". Could this have any meaning? What if the name "Thraecia" referred to an alliance between three large related populations?
    It is an interesting view. Although, i actually have a different view even from the segment of Kitselis you aforementioned, not that his analysis doesn't hold merit. I personally find the official etymology much more convincing. Namely that Θρᾴκα (Thrā́kā) in Doric, Θρᾴκη (Thrā́kē) in Attic and Θρῄκη (Thrḗikē) in Ionic and Epic (Homeric), originated from the Greek verb θράττω/θράσσω which means "to cause trouble, bother, or destroy". The Greek verb θράττω/θράσσω is in return a linguistic reduction of the verb ταράττω/ταράσσω which means the same thing. By the way both the τ/t and θ/th Greek letters can be used interchangeably in different dialects, since they are both part of the three dental consonants in Greek, which also include δ/d (sounding more like the Spanish letter). Furthermore, it is interesting that the word appears to be a cognate of the Greek word for "audacious, bold, daring, as well as insolent", namely θρᾰσῠ́ς (thrasús) which explains the warlike nature of Thracians, as well as a cognate of the Greek word for "religion", namely θρησκεία (thrēskeía) which might explain a strong religious relation of the Greeks and Thracians, after all don't forget that Orpheus which has a central role in Greek religion and mysteries was very likely a Thracian, although it should be noted here that during the Archaic, Classical, and Hellenistic periods, Thracian could be used both as an ethnic designation as well as a geographical. Even in a Christian context, don't forget that the greatest Church of Eastern Orthodox Christianity is located in Thrace, namely Hagia Sophia. I know, not related to the ancient origin of the word, but it is an interesting correlation.

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    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "There seems to be some kind of a misunderstanding. I'm not saying that CTS1273 didn't expand from the Western Pontic steppe region, I'm saying that CTS1273 originated in the Balkans but ended up migrating to the Western steppe pretty early on. The sample from Dibra has tested via the V13 SNP pack, he is negative for all of the CTS1273 subclades, however BY3880 wasn't tested so we don't know if he is BY3880*. His BigY failed quality control so we won't know for quite some time, though based on STRs he isn't close to anyone else (no matches on 111, 67 or 37 markers). The sample is my maternal uncle btw.".
    OK then, i kind of misunderstood you there. But still, i vew the Pontic-Caspian steppe origin as more likely especially when you consider the IE migrations and their correlating evidence from other fields of science, namely archaeology, linguistics, etc.. We still cannot explain, how or why CTS1273 coulld or would have migrated from the Balkans to the Pontic-Caspian steppe during the said period, if it was originally a Balkan clade.


    You write, "One of the E-M35 project admins has said that the Jewish sample is actually from Turkey. There are some Ashkenazi Jews that migrated to Turkey from Central Europe, so he could be Ashkenazi. Should also note that the Ottoman Empire had many Sephardic and Romaniote Jews. Anyways, his paternal line is most certainly of European origin. As for the origin of Ashkenazi or Sephardic Jews, it is either Italy or some place in the Aegean (Italy is more likely) based on genetics. Check this out https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tine-admixture.".

    I have studied the Ashkenazim mate. Their origin seems to be Levantine or Near Eastern for a big part of their paternal lines, and mostly European for their maternal lines. Autosomally, they indeed cluster with Southern Italians, Sicilians, and i would also add some Peloponnesian Greeks. This European influence most likely originated from Jewish converts of Magna Graecia. Even the Italian Jews cluster very close to them. And since we are in a thread about the Mycenaeans, so do the Mycenaean Greeks cluster with them. The Pontic hypothesis was put forward by Israeli geneticist Eran Elkaik, and pertains to the Khazar origin of modern Ashkenazim which supposedly per Elhaik came from NE-Turkey and were a mixed Israelite-Greco-Turko-Irano-Slavic population, which doesn't really seem likely when you assess the autosomal studies. But i do think that some Khazar converts could have eventually fused with the rest of the Ashkenazim, maybe even passing their name to them. Here is an article that relates from Eran's blog, https://khazardnaproject.wordpress.com/2016/08/22/the-origin-of-ashkenazic-jews-according-to-gpsorigins/. Furthermore, i do find interesting that their ethnonym "Ashkenazi" has many regional cognates in the region of NE-Turkey, which are obviously of Armenian origin, since Ashkenaz is considered along with Togarmah the Biblical ancestors of the Armenians in their tradition.
    ashkenaz.jpg
    You write, "For CTS1273 to have origins in the Caucasus or steppe itself, it would have to have high diversity there. CTS1273 has highest diversity in the Balkans (especially Bulgaria) and also has many basal clades. Plus, we have quite a few aDNA samples from the Caucasus, none of them were V13. I agree that the MRCA of CTS1273 expanded from someplace close to the steppe, but the clade itself didn't originate there.".

    It's actually its subclade E-BY3880, which does indeed point to E-BY3880 largely expanding from Bulgaria in a Balkan and subsequent European context.

    As for the ancient DNA of Caucasus, well yes. Even i don't suggest that E-V13 originated from there. But it does appear to have been part of the PIEs, hence why we find concentrations of it in the Volga region. My main point in regards to this is that E-BY3880 was one of the palaeo-Balkan IE and subsequent proto-Greek lines that had migrated directly from Catacomb, and that evidence from other fields of science seem to compliment this view. At least that's my view of the said clade, and i certainly don't misjudge someone if he has a different view than my own.


    You write, "Y30977 also is most diverse in the Balkans, the fact that its basal clades (Y37092*) show up there also suggests a Balkan origin. Most of the Y30977 around Eastern Europe is in fact of Balkan origin, as was suggested by Aspurg and the Moldovan samples.".

    But E-Y30977 also has another daughter clade, namely E-Y30976, which has an American E-Y30976* and a subclade (E-Y84931) with a Polish and an Armenian sample. To me this looks it most likely originated from the Pontic-Caspian steppe likewise, but i wouldn't jump to conclusions until i knew more of the aforementioned American sample, namely id:YF08576. If someone can provide more information on him i would be grateful.

    You write, "Sure the Proto or Early Greeks could've had V13 clades that took part in their ethnogenesis, nobody is denying that. I'm just saying that many of the clades (CTS9320, FGC11450 etc) are of foreign origin (LBA and EIA arrivals)".

    Sure, and nobody is denying that. Besides the Y-DNA talk though, i believe most of us are forgetting that we also have a mother, which seems to be more important from a genetic point of view, since both females and males inherit mtDNA, but only males Y-DNA. And even atDNA (autosomal) is likewise more important, and studies show that both Greeks and Albanians are very similar if not identical, and mostly of Neolithic stock.

    You write, "Y92017 isn't the only clade there that is of Albanian/Arvanite origin. The FGC11450 clades (Y173822, Y146086 etc) are likely of Arvanite origin, they match our FGC11450 Albanian samples pretty closely. FGC11450 itself seems pretty diverse in Albanians and basal clades show up among us. The E-Z5018 sample is in fact an ethnic Albanian from Filiates.".

    Indeed, no arguing on the FGC11450 clades, hence why i wrote that i quickly checked, and actually from memory. And of course the E-Z5018 sample which is designated as "Undefined non-Greek" is very obviously non-Greek even from the name it has, just like the Jewish individuals that are included. My point was that this graph misrepresents reality in the most part.

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    @Leka
    You write, "
    Definitely not as crazy as your ridiculous idea of the possible CTS1273* found in North Albania corroborating its proto-Greek origin.".

    First of all E-CTS1273* isn't found in North Albania. Second, who wrote about E-CTS1273* having a proto-Greek origin? I am referring to its daughter clade E-BY3880* which is only found in a descendant of a Greek colony in Sicily, Magna Graecia. By the way, the reason it was named Magna Graecia is because more Greeks were living there than in Greece itself.

    You write, "Anyway, here is why he mentioned these clusters: Montenegrin/Serb PH1246 samples are from southern Montenegro, and both clans have traditions that relate them to Albanian clans. Y37092* are Vasojevici who believe to be related to multiple Albanian clans (Hoti, Krasniqi etc). While the Serb under BY14160 (Rajovici) claim to have their origin from the Albanian clan Kuqi/Kuci.".

    That's not the only clusters he mentions, he misrepresents the whole thing. It is obvious propaganda. By the way, the so-called PH1246's subclade E-Y37092*, isn't only found in a Montenegrin but a Greek from the Cyclades as well. And even the other sample from his graph, namely Panayiotis Papadakis (born in 1776), has a Cretan last name. So, from any perspective you might look at it, this is most obviously a Greek descendant and has a Greek line, not an Albanian or proto-Albanian, but a proto-Greek. The only other name you could give it per its broader distribution is palaeo-Balkan IE, which includes proto-Greek.

    Just because the same clade is found in Montenegro, doesn't mean it wasn't a proto-Greek line as well. I have even written that it could have been a palaeo-Balkan IE line out of which proto-Greek could have sprang, in addition to other palaeo-Balkan IE languages.

    As for Vasojevici tribe, i have actually read about the folklore traditions. Believe it or not i have studied the "High Albania" by Edith Durham. Here is what Durham recorded, ""The tribe of Hoti," said the old man, "has many relations. Thirteen generations ago, one Gheg Lazar came to this land with his four sons, and it is from these that we of Hoti descend. I cannot tell the year in which they came. It was soon after the building of the church of Gruda, and that is now 380 years ago. Gruda came before we did. Gheg was one of four brothers. The other three were Piper, Vaso, and Krasni. From these descend the Piperi and Vasojevichi of Montenegro and the Krasnichi of North Albania. So we are four–all related–the Lazakechi (we of Hoti), the Piperkechi, the Vasokechi, and the Kraskechi. They all came from Bosnia to escape the Turks, but from what part I do not know. Yes, they were all Christians. Krasnichi only turned Moslem much later."". But despite this folklore tradition, Hoti seem to be making a cluster under J2b-L283 >> Z1296> Z1297> Z1295> CTS11100, http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti/, not E-V13. In any case, i wouldn't like to open another unrelated chapter under this thread, just mentioning this as a sidenote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Leka
    You write, "
    Definitely not as crazy as your ridiculous idea of the possible CTS1273* found in North Albania corroborating its proto-Greek origin.".

    First of all E-CTS1273* isn't found in North Albania. Second, who wrote about E-CTS1273* having a proto-Greek origin? I am referring to its daughter clade E-BY3880* which is only found in a descendant of a Greek colony in Sicily, Magna Graecia. By the way, the reason it was named Magna Graecia is because more Greeks were living there than in Greece itself.

    You write, "Anyway, here is why he mentioned these clusters: Montenegrin/Serb PH1246 samples are from southern Montenegro, and both clans have traditions that relate them to Albanian clans. Y37092* are Vasojevici who believe to be related to multiple Albanian clans (Hoti, Krasniqi etc). While the Serb under BY14160 (Rajovici) claim to have their origin from the Albanian clan Kuqi/Kuci.".

    That's not the only clusters he mentions, he misrepresents the whole thing. It is obvious propaganda. By the way, the so-called PH1246's subclade E-Y37092*, isn't only found in a Montenegrin but a Greek from the Cyclades as well. And even the other sample from his graph, namely Panayiotis Papadakis (born in 1776), has a Cretan last name. So, from any perspective you might look at it, this is most obviously a Greek descendant and has a Greek line, not an Albanian or proto-Albanian, but a proto-Greek. The only other name you could give it per its broader distribution is palaeo-Balkan IE, which includes proto-Greek.

    Just because the same clade is found in Montenegro, doesn't mean it wasn't a proto-Greek line as well. I have even written that it could have been a palaeo-Balkan IE line out of which proto-Greek could have sprang, in addition to other palaeo-Balkan IE languages.

    As for Vasojevici tribe, i have actually read about the folklore traditions. Believe it or not i have studied the "High Albania" by Edith Durham. Here is what Durham recorded, ""The tribe of Hoti," said the old man, "has many relations. Thirteen generations ago, one Gheg Lazar came to this land with his four sons, and it is from these that we of Hoti descend. I cannot tell the year in which they came. It was soon after the building of the church of Gruda, and that is now 380 years ago. Gruda came before we did. Gheg was one of four brothers. The other three were Piper, Vaso, and Krasni. From these descend the Piperi and Vasojevichi of Montenegro and the Krasnichi of North Albania. So we are four–all related–the Lazakechi (we of Hoti), the Piperkechi, the Vasokechi, and the Kraskechi. They all came from Bosnia to escape the Turks, but from what part I do not know. Yes, they were all Christians. Krasnichi only turned Moslem much later."". But despite this folklore tradition, Hoti seem to be making a cluster under J2b-L283 >> Z1296> Z1297> Z1295> CTS11100, http://www.gjenetika.com/fisi-hoti/, not E-V13. In any case, i wouldn't like to open another unrelated chapter under this thread, just mentioning this as a sidenote.
    You mentioned it while discussing with Kelmendasi.

    I think you are misinterpreting the yfull tree. The Greek fella under BY3880 is not BY3880*, meaning negative for all subclades downstream. He is currently under BY3880 because of the low coverage of his BigY, the status on Z5017 and Z5018 is not known. But let just say that he was negative for all subclades below, it still wouldn't mean much. He just represents a parallel subclade that hasn't been encountered yet, nothing more. It would add more diversity to Greece, I give you that. But it seems like a minor linage that we can't even confidently say that is native to Greece.

    PH1246 seems a lot more diverse up north, just in the North Albania/Southern Montenegro region we have encountered three subclades. As a whole though PH1246 is a minor linage, besides Montenegro where it expanded with Vasojevici clan. Especially in Greece, so kind of irrelevant. I would rather focus on those other subclades that are more numerous, like BY4461, Y146086, Y173822, L241 etc.

    Clan traditions what we have seen so far, genetically speaking, seem quite complex. Main reason being because in most cases they seem to have started as heterogeneous regions/tribes. Over time certain clans grew and came to dominate the tribe and eventually in the process displaced other smaller families/clans. The interesting thing is that most of these displaced clans/families still identify with the region they hail from, and in some cases they also believe to be related to the clan that actually displaced them. This phenomenon can be observed in many families in Kosove, Montenegro and the region known as Sanxhak (southern Serbia).

    Hoti aren't related to the Albanian clans either on that tradition that you quoted, like Krasniqi and Bankeqi. Not just to Vasojevici and Piperi. Piperi for example that are Z2705 could very well be related to the Old Hoti, who are a mere minority now days within their tribal lands (that seem to also belong to this line, partially perhaps). What I am trying to say is that those traditions didn't form out of thin air. They obviously had close relations at some point in time, and perhaps even spoke the same language.
    Last edited by Leka; 25-09-19 at 07:16.

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    @Leka
    You write, "You mentioned it while discussing with Kelmendasi.".
    I cannot recall mentioning that i consider E-CTS1273* as proto-Greek. Maybe you misunderstood me, i referred to its daughter clade E-BY3880*, which personally i wouldn't even have a problem terming as palaeo-Balkan IE out of which proto-Greek could have sprang. The point i was suggesting and indeed personally support, is that E-BY3880* came originally from the Catacomb culture.

    You write, "I think you are misinterpreting the yfull tree. The Greek fella under BY3880 is not BY3880*, meaning negative for all subclades downstream. He is currently under BY3880 because of the low coverage of his BigY, the status on Z5017 and Z5018 is not known. But let just say that he was negative for all subclades below, it still wouldn't mean much. He just represents a parallel subclade that hasn't been encountered yet, nothing more. It would add more diversity to Greece, I give you that. But it seems like a minor linage that we can't even confidently say that is native to Greece.".
    I didn't refer to the Greek fella under BY3880, i referred to the only BY3880* listed, who is an Italian and probably a descendant of Greek colonists in Sicily, namely from Messina which was founded in the 8th century BCE.

    You write, "PH1246 seems a lot more diverse up north, just in the North Albania/Southern Montenegro region we have encountered three subclades. As a whole though PH1246 is a minor linage, besides Montenegro where it expanded with Vasojevici clan. Especially in Greece, so kind of irrelevant. I would rather focus on those other sublaces that are more numerous, like BY4461, Y146086, Y173822, L241 etc.".
    PH1246 seems to have been diverse in both the Balkans (including Greece) through its E-Y37092 clade, as well as the Pontic-Caspian steppe through its E-Y30976 clade. Along with archaeological and linguistic evidence, it's what makes me believe for PH1246 to have most likely originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. As for E-Y37092, the fact we see a Greek man from Cyclades being E-Y37092*, and a Cretan Greek PH1246, suggests for the clade to have been deeply rooted in Greece. Even if it is not prevalent today, my point is that it was probably present from the proto-Greek period. In any case, it seems that most Greeks fall under E-CTS1273 through it's daughter clade E-BY3880 which (E-CTS1273 ) likewise seems to have originated from the Pontic-Caspian steppe originally, and has a variety of lines which in a Greek context can be considered anything from proto-Greek, post-Bronze-Age collapse, and Medieval. More samples are needed to come to safe conclusions though.

    PostScript: As for the tribal discussion, i mostly agree with you but don't want to expand on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Right now there is zero proof that Y18331 came to Greece as part of the Slavic migrations. The Dinaric branches formed a long time before the Slavic migrations. Without evidence, who is to say that they all migrated to Greece at the same time? Were there not previous northern invasions of Greece, like the Goths? Where are the Balkan Slavs and even East European Slavs with Y18331 to back it up? There are none yet.

    More evidence than just the Mycenaean study supports that modern Greeks have genetic continuity with the earlier Greeks. Greeks from the Peloponnese are shown to be close to and overlap a bit with Sicilians, for example. Another clue is the language. How could there have been Greek speakers if there were no Greeks around? Were other ethnic groups that insecure to give up their language and religion and become Greek with no other Greeks around to teach or compel them?

    Its like Alexander the Great and Macedonians. If they were not Greek, why did they spread around the Greek language and culture? Were they ashamed of their own language—people as bold as the world-conquering Alexander?
    There are plenty of cases in human history where the ruling class used as official another language. Turkic Bulgars for example. Greek language was used as lingua Franka in Mediterranean at that time. Even in Rome it was co official with Latin.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    There are plenty of cases in human history where the ruling class used as official another language. Turkic Bulgars for example. Greek language was used as lingua Franka in Mediterranean at that time. Even in Rome it was co official with Latin.
    But in the case of the Macedonians the rabbit whole goes far deeper. All the material evidence emphasizes their Greekness. They have Greek personal names. Their lands and the areas from which they hail have Greek geographical names. More importantly, there is no trace of a hypothetical non-Greek Macedonian language. Moreover, we do have evidence of the fact that some other Balkan tribes had non-Greek elements. It would be quite remarkable that these Balkan tribes have somehow left their unique mark in history, while the Ancient Macedonians have left nothing.

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    That’s quite the guess. Let’s not speculate without confirming that he has Greek roots..

    Extremely unlikely that BY3880 expanded from Catacomb. They seem to have been predominantly R1b-Z2103, which isn’t surprising at all. Proto-Greek could have come from such a culture but definitely not BY3880.

    What makes you think that Y30976 is divers in Pontic-Caspian steppe? I only see one such sample from Armenia who actually doesn’t seem to be that distant from a Pole.

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