Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Kelmendasi]

That’s quite the guess. Let’s not speculate without confirming that he has Greek roots..

Extremely unlikely that BY3880 expanded from Catacomb. They seem to have been predominantly R1b-Z2103, which isn’t surprising at all. Proto-Greek could have come from such a culture but definitely not BY3880.

What makes you think that Y30976 is divers in Pontic-Caspian steppe? I only see one such sample from Armenia who actually doesn’t seem to be that distant from a Pole.

Exactly, the Pole and Armenian share a common ancestor ~2,200 years ago so sometime during the 2nd Century BC. If Y30976 expanded from the Pontic steppe we would expect them to share a common ancestor sometime during the Bronze Age. His argument that Y30977 is as diverse in the Balkans as it is in the steppe is also incorrect. Currently there are no clades under Y30977 that have been found around the steppe area as far as I know, however there are currently 4 different clades of Y30977 in the Balkans (Y37092, BY14160, BY14150 and Y81468). Don't know where he got the evidence for Y30977 being diverse in the steppe.
As a whole Y30977 is very diverse in the Balkans (nearly all of its clades being found there) and has little to no diversity elsewhere, this make a Balkan origin the most likely. I also don't see much evidence being presented by him that CTS1273 itself originated in the steppe, apart from those 2 basal clades from Ossetia (a region which isn't even part of the Pontic-Caspian steppe but the Caucasus).

[Aspurg]

YF12550 is Atanasov (seems Bulgarian), belongs to E-Z5018>BY6219 (with a Czech).
YF14857 is E-Z5017>BY4684>FGC71980 , Greek FGC71980 needs to send his results to YFull (this new BY4684* is likely not him), because YF14857 shares some SNP's with him they will form FGC71980 even though he had no reading for Z5017.

Albanian CTS5856* has dys561=16 and that increases chances of him being BY3880+ (one of important STR's at BY3880 level).

There is a genuine Greek who is CTS1273/BY3880*. N57387 Manolis from Cyprus. His reads: CTS5856+, Z16663-, S3003-, S7461-, PH1246-, Z5017-, Z5018-, Y16729-, Y19509-, CTS9320*, BY6527-, FGC14092/BY5965-.

Yes Italian YF19216 and E-BY6527 might have a connection to Greeks due to their location (Messina).

[Aspurg]

Exactly, the Pole and Armenian share a common ancestor ~2,200 years ago so sometime during the 2nd Century BC. If Y30976 expanded from the Pontic steppe we would expect them to share a common ancestor sometime during the Bronze Age. His argument that Y30977 is as diverse in the Balkans as it is in the steppe is also incorrect. Currently there are no clades under Y30977 that have been found around the steppe area as far as I know, however there are currently 4 different clades of Y30977 in the Balkans (Y37092, BY14160, BY14150 and Y81468). Don't know where he got the evidence for Y30977 being diverse in the steppe.

E-Y84931 itself is diverse in the Steppe. Again YFull doesn't give you a good picture. There is Tatar who is Y84931+ (as I have predicted he will be long ago), and there are Hungarians who are also certainly Y84931+.
Also one Italian from Calabria seems to belong to Y84931. I'm surprised by the low SNP count from those samples. Pole and Armenian (from Istanbul) are 22/67, at this number of STR's they seem abit more distant than 2200 ybp. Maybe more samples change that or they just mutate more slowly or just there were many differences at Y67 but not at 300+. Armenian seems like a most distant member of this cluster, he doesn't share the specific STR that others have (607=14).

About others, mostly BY14150's around Carpathians/Ukraine that I mentioned. Slovak BY14150 (still not confirmed but a certain BY14150) is with Macedonian BY14150 at 12/37, Ukrainian-Macedonian 10/37.

[Kelmendasi]

E-Y84931 itself is diverse in the Steppe. Again YFull doesn't give you a good picture. There is Tatar who is Y84931+ (as I have predicted he will be long ago), and there are Hungarians who are also certainly Y84931+.
Also one Italian from Calabria seems to belong to Y84931. I'm surprised by the low SNP count from those samples. Pole and Armenian (from Istanbul) are 22/67, at this number of STR's they seem abit more distant than 2200 ybp. Maybe more samples change that or they just mutate more slowly or just there were many differences at Y67 but not at 300+. Armenian seems like a most distant member of this cluster, he doesn't share the specific STR that others have (607=14).

About others, mostly BY14150's around Carpathians/Ukraine that I mentioned. Slovak BY14150 (still not confirmed but a certain BY14150) is with Macedonian BY14150 at 12/37, Ukrainian-Macedonian 10/37.

I see, wasn't aware of those other Y84931+ samples. Only really mentioned the Armenian and Pole because they were mentioned. Still, we have only one sample that is Y30977>Y84931 who is from around the steppe region, the Tatar guy. From where in Hungary are these Hungarians? Y84931 is still just one clade under Y30977, for Y30977 to have origin from around the steppe the other subclades should also show distribution and diversity around the steppe. I'm open to an origin for Y30977 which is around the steppe, but you're gonna have to show me a lot more evidence for that.

The BY14150 guy could be of a Southern origin.

[Kelmendasi]

Albanian CTS5856* has dys561=16 and that increases chances of him being BY3880+ (one of important STR's at BY3880 level).

Interesting, so based on this you would say that he is E-BY3880*?

[Aspurg]

The BY14150 guy could be of a Southern origin.

He doesn't have any recent Southern origin though, that's why I posted distance. Also BY14150 is extremely rare on Balkans. Other than this Macedonian there is not a single haplotype I've seen that is likely BY14150. Just going from studies at YHRD, you one almost certain BY14150 in: Ireland (where King from YFull if from), 3 from Poland (2 from Gdansk, and 1 from Southern Poland), 1 Slovak, 1 Rusyn, 1 Germany, 1 Spain.

I'm open to an origin for Y30977 which is around the steppe, but you're gonna have to show me a lot more evidence for that.

BY14150 seems far more common around Carpathians than Balkans. Also some evidence could be mustered that E-Y81468 exists around there.

ht11 E-V13 14 24 13 10 16-21 11 12 12 14 11 31 14 10 9 11 12 2
ht12 E-V13 14 24 13 10 16-22 11 12 12 14 11 31 14 10 9 11 12 1


These Moldovans from Karahasani look likely E-Y81468, going by current limited data this is most common Moldovan E-V13 haplotype (albeit only 3).


Slovakia [Slovakian] 13 24 13 10 16-21 13 14 11 31 15 14 19 11 16 10 22


This one also doesn't fit as anything other than Y81468 (maybe one your Y145455 but there are problematic non-matches for that: 391, 389b), and he shows 4-6 STR's difference to current 3 Y81468's. 389=14-31 is defining PH1246 mutation, and one of defining Y81468 mutations is 385b=21.
Interestingly I've seen none of these PH1246 in Romanians nor Bulgarians.


Overall these are not enough to suggest Y37092 has highest diversity near the Steppe area. But at least there are likely there for some time, especially BY14150, and may be also that for example BY14150's path followed more that of some BY3880's.

Interesting, so based on this you would say that he is E-BY3880*?

Well other important STR's are not in the Y111 set but and this one is of more reliable ones, can't say for certain but chances are better he is BY3880+ than BY3880- based on this.


Though there is one interesting possibility I see now: he's maybe be a distant cousin to this Ossetian cluster. Because they too have 561=16, and also they share 497=15 (rare in V13), 456=18, last one is less reliable/faster but all Ossetians have 18 and they are 9/37 so it has some age there, not sure for Albanian as he has no cousins. They are 33/111 so very distant even if they happen to share something. I can't say anything for sure here, these are rare and unprofiled clades. But there is possibility of distant (MBA/EBA) relation here.

[Kelmendasi]

He doesn't have any recent Southern origin though, that's why I posted distance. Also BY14150 is extremely rare on Balkans. Other than this Macedonian there is not a single haplotype I've seen that is likely BY14150. Just going from studies at YHRD, you one almost certain BY14150 in: Ireland (where King from YFull if from), 3 from Poland (2 from Gdansk, and 1 from Southern Poland), 1 Slovak, 1 Rusyn, 1 Germany, 1 Spain.



BY14150 seems far more common around Carpathians than Balkans. Also some evidence could be mustered that E-Y81468 exists around there.

ht11 E-V13 14 24 13 10 16-21 11 12 12 14 11 31 14 10 9 11 12 2
ht12 E-V13 14 24 13 10 16-22 11 12 12 14 11 31 14 10 9 11 12 1


These Moldovans from Karahasani look likely E-Y81468, going by current limited data this is most common Moldovan E-V13 haplotype (albeit only 3).


Slovakia [Slovakian] 13 24 13 10 16-21 13 14 11 31 15 14 19 11 16 10 22


This one also doesn't fit as anything other than Y81468 (maybe one your Y145455 but there are problematic non-matches for that: 391, 389b), and he shows 4-6 STR's difference to current 3 Y81468's. 389=14-31 is defining PH1246 mutation, and one of defining Y81468 mutations is 385b=21.
Interestingly I've seen none of these PH1246 in Romanians nor Bulgarians.


Overall these are not enough to suggest Y37092 has highest diversity near the Steppe area. But at least there are likely there for some time, especially BY14150, and may be also that for example BY14150's path followed more that of some BY3880's.




Well other important STR's are not in the Y111 set but and this one is of more reliable ones, can't say for certain but chances are better he is BY3880+ than BY3880- based on this.


Though there is one interesting possibility I see now: he's maybe be a distant cousin to this Ossetian cluster. Because they too have 561=16, and also they share 497=15 (rare in V13), 456=18, last one is less reliable/faster but all Ossetians have 18 and they are 9/37 so it has some age there, not sure for Albanian as he has no cousins. They are 33/111 so very distant even if they happen to share something. I can't say anything for sure here, these are rare and unprofiled clades. But there is possibility of distant (MBA/EBA) relation here.

Yh, I do see the possibility of certain clusters under E-Y30977 having migrated around the Carpathian-Steppe area pretty early on based on what has been shown. Though I do think we can agree that Y30977 itself probably had origin in the Balkans. Btw do you know if the Moldovans from Karahasani have any foreign origin? The name of this village is very Turkish sounding, "Kara" means "Black" whilst "Hasan" is a name. The village is also close to the Budjak region of Ukraine, a region which was settled by various groups from the south, even Albanians.

I think I will be able to obtain a new sample from my uncle sometime during the week so we should know if he is BY3880 in a couple of months. Interesting that you bring up the potentially Bronze Age relation to the Ossetians, makes me really eager to see what he truly is. Hopefully it all goes smoothly when I re-submit his sample.

[Leka]

E-Y84931 itself is diverse in the Steppe. Again YFull doesn't give you a good picture. There is Tatar who is Y84931+ (as I have predicted he will be long ago), and there are Hungarians who are also certainly Y84931+.
Also one Italian from Calabria seems to belong to Y84931. I'm surprised by the low SNP count from those samples. Pole and Armenian (from Istanbul) are 22/67, at this number of STR's they seem abit more distant than 2200 ybp. Maybe more samples change that or they just mutate more slowly or just there were many differences at Y67 but not at 300+. Armenian seems like a most distant member of this cluster, he doesn't share the specific STR that others have (607=14).

About others, mostly BY14150's around Carpathians/Ukraine that I mentioned. Slovak BY14150 (still not confirmed but a certain BY14150) is with Macedonian BY14150 at 12/37, Ukrainian-Macedonian 10/37.

Have any of them been SNP confirmed as such?

The Slovak and the two Moldovan you posted do look similar to those clusters but I would be cautious classifying them as such on that resolution.

[Demetrios]

@Leka
You write, "That’s quite the guess. Let’s not speculate without confirming that he has Greek roots..".
Not really quite a guess when you consider that Magna Graecia had more Greeks than Greece itself, and Messina is actually at the very center of Magna Graecia, just opposite the Calabrian coast.

You write, "Extremely unlikely that BY3880 expanded from Catacomb. They seem to have been predominantly R1b-Z2103, which isn’t surprising at all. Proto-Greek could have come from such a culture but definitely not BY3880.".
First of all, i didn't write that i consider E-BY3880 as a predominant Y-DNA haplogroup of proto-Greeks, i wrote that i consider it to have been present among them. Of course Catacomb looks to have been prevalent in R-Z2103 and it seems that the vast majority of R1b-M269 in Greeks is traced to that, but i don't see how this negates the possibility for Catacomb to have contributed other haplogroups as well. That's what i have been suggesting when i associate them with proto-Greeks.

You write, "What makes you think that Y30976 is divers in Pontic-Caspian steppe? I only see one such sample from Armenia who actually doesn’t seem to be that distant from a Pole.".
We keep writing the same stuff over and over again. I have already written where i based my thinking. E-Y30977 has two daughter clades, E-Y30976 and E-Y37092. E-Y37092 seems to have a prevalent distribution in the Balkans, i didn't refuted that. E-Y30976 seems to have had a distribution in the Pontic-Caspian steppe or Eastern Europe, because of this Armenian and Polish samples. I can only evaluate what i see. Now, if the Armenian sample was actually from Istanbul, we have an Italian from Calabria (Magna Graecia) belonging to Y84931, and there are even a Tatar and Hungarians who are Y84931+ as @Aspurg wrote, then this complicates things but it certainly doesn't negate the steppe origin when you consider the IE migrations that began from there and flooded Europe. I have even written that i would be grateful if anyone could give more information on the American E-Y30976* sample that is listed in order to clarify the history of the clade better. Why would i have a problem agreeing to a Balkan origin of E-Y30977? I don't. I am just trying to evaluate as accurate as possible its history and i am certainly not dogmatic about what i write.

[Demetrios]

@Gales
You write, "The only people related to the Proto-Macedonians were the Thracians, that's what archaeology has demonstrated, with the discovery of the colorful paintings in the important tombs,specific for both cultures.".
Which archaeology is this? Does it relate to the so-called proto-Macedonians (which were just another Greek tribe among many based on the actual evidence) or even proto-Thracians, or does it only appear in Thrace as a result of the Hellenic cultural influence towards the Odrysian kingdom? You do know that the Odrysian kingdom was under heavy Hellenic influence from a cultural point of view, right? Especially when Thrace became part of the Macedonian Empire and its successor States.

You write, "Unlike these two ,the Greeks have remained conservative IE people, admitting many times that they didn't quite understood what the Thracians and Macedonians were really doing,often,trying to copy their culture.".
You don't make any sense here. Elaborate so i can answer appropriately.

You write, "One thing looks quite clear-it seems that nobody else was invited, even now they don't know why Spartacus didn't cross the Alps, after defeating the Romans,and we have a more realistic Australian movie,where he appears different from both the Western or Eastern/SE gladiators.".
Likewise, i don't understand what you are trying to say here.

[Ownstyler]

Of course Catacomb looks to have been prevalent in R-Z2103 and it seems that the vast majority of R1b-M269 in Greeks is traced to that

Is there any evidence for this at all?

[Demetrios]

Is there any evidence for this at all?

Catacomb seems to have been prevalent in R-Z2103 (R-Z2109 is also a subclade of it). The following is a map by Carlos Quiles showing the haplogroups from Catacomb, Poltavka, Balkan EBA, Bell Beaker, and other neighboring groups.

bell-beaker-poltavka.jpg

As for the Greek connection, well, R-Z2103 seems to be the most prevalent R-M269 clade in Greece if you look at haplogroup maps, don't know the exact frequency though. I only know the frequency of R-M269 throughout Greece, which i shared the other day. Here it is again.
North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 13%
Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 11.5%
South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 20.5%
Crete: 15%
Aegean Islands: 19%
Furthermore it seems to have been from very early in Greece, for example look at R-KMS67* found in a Greek from Kefallonia, an Italian from Reggio Calabria (Magna Graecia), and a French from Seine-Maritime. R-KMS67 is a subclade of R-Z2109. And if you look at the distribution and the date of it, it most probably came from the Yamnaya or the Catacomb cultures, could even have been from Armenia if we consider the southern route. But i don't know the frequency of each line, i also told you that the other day. Hence why i wrote that it seems that the vast majority of R1b-M269 in Greeks is traced to that. If you know something more please share, i also asked you about this the other day.

[Ownstyler]

Catacomb seems to have been prevalent in R-Z2103 (R-Z2109 is also a subclade of it)... ...As for the Greek connection, well, R-Z2103 seems to be the most prevalent R-M269 clade in Greece if you look at haplogroup maps, don't know the exact frequency though. I only know the frequency of R-M269 throughout Greece, which i shared the other day. Here it is again.
North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 13%
Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 11.5%
South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 20.5%
Crete: 15%
Aegean Islands: 19%
Furthermore it seems to have been from very early in Greece, for example look at R-KMS67* found in a Greek from Kefallonia, an Italian from Reggio Calabria (Magna Graecia), and a French from Seine-Maritime. R-KMS67 is a subclade of R-Z2109. And if you look at the distribution and the date of it, it most probably came from the Yamnaya or the Catacomb cultures, could even have been from Armenia if we consider the southern route. But i don't know the frequency of each line, i also told you that the other day. Hence why i wrote that it seems that the vast majority of R1b-M269 in Greeks is traced to that. If you know something more please share, i also asked you about this the other day.

When you make claims, the burden of proof is with you. I hoped you had some.

Anyway, I have not looked at possible modern Greek KMS67 in studies, but that one SNP-confirmed result forms a subclade with a Swiss person, most likely tmrca 2000-3000 ybp. KMS67 is also present all over Europe and Eurasia. R1b-Z2103 frequency doesn't mean anything, it is just a broadly IE marker. There is no KMS67 in aDNA and no SNP-defined KMS67 modern Greek cluster. Right now, I do not see any special Greek-Catacomb similarities beyond the normal IE connection.

PS: the website of the map is full of speculative arguments based on thin evidence.

[Aspurg]

Have any of them been SNP confirmed as such?


The Slovak and the two Moldovan you posted do look similar to those clusters but I would be cautious classifying them as such on that resolution.

Yes, I said they are likely Y81468, if they had more STR's I might have said something more. Tatar is SNP confirmed. Hungarians not but they don't need to be confirmed either, they are certainly of those clusters at Y37.

There is no KMS67 in aDNA

KMS67 was found in Yamnaya. And yes it is very likely this Greek and also Italian KMS67 are some proto-Greeks.


Now there's been this talk about V13 with Albanians emphasizing the West-Balkan origin etc.


Lets cut the crap shall we and get to the point. I have a problem when someone tries to denigrate my haplogroup. Denial of participation in important Bronze Age migrations and ethnogenesis is an attempt of denigration.


I already have experience with various PH908+ admins at poreklo who tried to indicate that diversification of E-V13 is from the West Balkan area (Illurian). Why? Because if so considering Neolithic presence of V13's there then V13 are just a bunch of people who were cucked by other newcomers. So as they say not really Illyrian either. But nobodies.


What is my problem there? First I respect somethings IE's brought: primarily war and secondarily (though don't want to be understood as "chauvinist" here) patriarchalism. That is good part of reason why many try to associate themselves with such groups. Neolithic Europe was not about that hence I don't have much respect for it, except the these Natufian-likes who were little bit different. After all they are pastoral E-M35's. So my job is to ensure V13 is as IE as possible and also as North African/AA as possible and as un-EEF as possible at the same time.

If the V13 was the hg some V13 haters would have us believe it would not have diversified in Bronze Age so it must have been a major factor somewhere. And it was in Thracian areas. I'm sure many non-V13's would find it problematic that "despicable E's" are a factor somewhere and it seems some Albo's have similar mindset:

From Albanians in another forum:

"topic - Happy I'm Not E1b
Oct 2, 2016 - I was afraid of that haplogroup because it exists in Somalia but J2b2, R1b does not.


EV13 are the Short Swarthy Gracile, Curlyhaired Meds while J2b2 are us tall, robust, light featured tribal Ghegnians who came down through the mountains and pushed everyone else the **** aside."

Except V13's are largely proto-Thracian and most of them didn't get cucked by J2b2's or BY611's.


Is is not symptomatic that there isn't a single Albanian V13+ who has a clue about V13.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes, I said they are likely Y81468, if they had more STR's I might have said something more. Tatar is SNP confirmed. Hungarians not but they don't need to be confirmed either, they are certainly of those clusters at Y37.






KMS67 was found in Yamnaya. And yes it is very likely this Greek and also Italian KMS67 are some proto-Greeks.


Now there's been this talk about V13 with Albanians emphasizing the West-Balkan origin etc.


Lets cut the crap shall we and get to the point. I have a problem when someone tries to denigrate my haplogroup. Denial of participation in important Bronze Age migrations and ethnogenesis is an attempt of denigration.


I already have experience with various PH908+ admins at poreklo who tried to indicate that diversification of E-V13 is from the West Balkan area (Illurian). Why? Because if so considering Neolithic presence of V13's there then V13 are just a bunch of people who were cucked by other newcomers. So as they say not really Illyrian either. But nobodies.


What is my problem there? First I respect somethings IE's brought: primarily war and secondarily (though don't want to be understood as "chauvinist" here) patriarchalism. That is good part of reason why many try to associate themselves with such groups. Neolithic Europe was not about that hence I don't have much respect for it, except the these Natufian-likes who were little bit different. After all they are pastoral E-M35's. So my job is to ensure V13 is as IE as possible and also as North African/AA as possible and as un-EEF as possible at the same time.

If the V13 was the hg some V13 haters would have us believe it would not have diversified in Bronze Age so it must have been a major factor somewhere. And it was in Thracian areas. I'm sure many non-V13's would find it problematic that "despicable E's" are a factor somewhere and it seems some Albo's have similar mindset:

From Albanians in another forum:


Except V13's are largely proto-Thracian and most of them didn't get cucked by J2b2's or BY611's.


Is is not symptomatic that there isn't a single Albanian V13+ who has a clue about V13.

First of all, who here is trying to say that V13 didn't take part in the Bronze Age expansion of IE speaking populations? Basically all of us agree that the most important clade under V13, CTS1273, took part in the Bronze Age expansion. We are also open to the idea of other clades under E-Y30977 having been present in the Carpathian-Steppe region for quite some time.

E-V13 itself does seem to have origins within EEF groups from the Balkans, the Cardium Pottery Culture is by far the most likely. I know there is some archaeological evidence suggesting some kind of North African cultural influence in this culture, but it still was EEF in the end of the day.

By "Some Albo's" you mean the odd one or two who have no idea what they are talking about and probably just trying to provoke others. Don't see why you're even them seriously to be honest.

[Leka]

I remember looking at the Catacomb BAM files a while ago: RK4002, RK4001 and SA6003. All three were Z2103+ but nothing on Z2106 level, so I left it with that.


Lmao Aspurg

[Ownstyler]

KMS67 was found in Yamnaya.

Yes, as I mentioned there is an IE connection, but we were talking about Greece and Catacomb culture. It has not been found in aDNA from either one so far. Just because because it is an IE line currently present in Greece does not make it Catacomb or proto-Greek.

And yes it is very likely this Greek and also Italian KMS67 are some proto-Greeks.

Could be, but you need either a SNP-defined Greek cluster or some KMS67 in aDNA in Greece, or at least a Greek match for the Italian, all of which are currently lacking.

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
Very interesting posts guys.
I will just deal with the tittle of the thread which is allready "strange" for me and I mean by that: -How different could they be?
More or less I have allready express my opinion at other threads, ( for Griffin warrior and for the engraved funeral items) I dont want to repeat myself ,as
also not to prove something to anybody.

I believe that they are not dramatically so different from the biological perspective for the issue, as for example it may be for the differences beetween them
if compared as composed and advanced societies.

Someone could say that the absolut indication for the question -to whom they are-, is their genetic profile. (haplogroups etc, etc.) Unfortunatelly for them the
samples are few to have a concrete conclusion from that aspect. So if it is not unstable to build on theories up on few findings, at least is bit silly to consider
that civilizations emerged from "special" or -what's next -, from not so special "haplogroups;
-Please guys...


Allthough all that new informations of the "newborn" science (genetics;) look indisputable, the fancy coloured maps, the long lettered and numberd codes, etc
etc. we are very far to conclude safely for a population, if not also for an individual iself.


At least for my case:
"...I am not a number(haplogroup), I'm a free mαn..."

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
Well actually the issue for me, firstly is philosophical not genetical, and it is about how we name things...
It is about how we "nominate", how we "signify", and how we "classify" that is the prime elements of how we communicate with the terms of our
meanings. (Gr: το σημείο, το σημαίνον και το σημαινόμενο.)
Have in mind that, because the indications are not conclusions. Allthough series of indications -could- advise conclusions.


Hope not to come back for that, but for the moment keep that "Myceneans" and "Minoans" are names without legitimate value.
For example, how we name -today- the citizens of Pylos; or Thebes; -of course Thebeans or Pyleans but as "Myceneans"; Are they?
It is a bit risky the giving name things, as well nescessary, but not definetely absolut for our understanding.


I personaly prefer the -well chery picked- photo game, it is more funny and instant to our perception.

[Aspurg]

Something I worked on.

1. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Albanians represent 60.8 % of Albanian E-V13 linegaes.
Gjenetika.com 141/232
E-Z38456>BY4461 35
E-Y146086 30
E-FGC33625 26
E-PH2180 22
E-Y173822 17
E-Z27131 11




2. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Montenegrins represent 72.0 % of Montenegrin E-V13 linegaes.
Mirabal et al. 77/107
E-BY165837 Kuchi 27
E-BY14151 Vasojevici 21
E-Y133830 Bjelopavlici 11
E-A18833 Bjelice 7
E-Z38456>BY4461 7
E-PH1173 4






3. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Bulgarians represent 17.0 % of Bulgarian E-V13 linegaes.
24/141 (Bulgarian FTDNA project, Karachanak et al, Begona Martinez-Cruz et al)
E-S7461(389b=29) 6
E-A18833 5
E-Y3183* 4
E-S7461>BY5465 3
E-PH1173 3
E-Z5018* 3


I remember once Leki was talking about Bulgaria being "repopulated" when he tried to downplay diversity in Bulgaria, is this proof of Bulgarian E-V13 deriving from Albanians?? Most of Albanians fall under bottlenecks with recent expansion. Albanian clusters may only comprise a negligible percentage of Bulgarian E-V13 lineages.

In Bulgarians most common clusters don't make any significant difference. They and especially Romanians have have far more still unprofiled E-V13's. On the other hand in Albanians and Montenegrins they make a lot of difference.


Montenegrins are an interesting case as NONE of their most common E-V13 clusters is native to Montenegro (Vasojevici likely came from Herzegovina, others from SE). None of these go past Middle Ages. There are some natives like Šaranci (who are maybe PH1246) etc but they are not common.

I haven't done this for Greeks but they have lots of unclassifiable haplotypes too, while having some numerous clusters like E-PH1173 subcluster and others.

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
Well actually the issue for me, firstly is philosophical not genetical, and it is about how we name things...
It is about how we "nominate", how we "signify", and how we "classify" that is the prime elements of how we communicate with the terms of our
meanings. (Gr: το σημείο, το σημαίνον και το σημαινόμενο.)
Have in mind that, because the indications are not conclusions. Allthough series of indications -could- advise conclusions.


Hope not to come back for that, but for the moment keep that "Myceneans" and "Minoans" are names without legitimate value.
For example, how we name -today- the citizens of Pylos; or Thebes; -of course Thebeans or Pyleans but as "Myceneans"; Are they?
It is a bit risky the giving name things, as well nescessary, but not definetely absolut for our understanding.


I personaly prefer the -well chery picked- photo game, it is more funny and instant to our perception.

I have the conviction that mostly they are quite different economies in a bit different time frame at the late Bronze age
The "Minoans" appear like under a totalitarian; authority; maybe as a very theocratic regime, They succesfully deploy all their "diplomatic" (commercial) geopolitic abbilities and the "Myceneans" appear as the infancy of an early federalism model , allthough "omnimum es pares" alike (first among equals) which
advance themselves with raw-war, real politics. -At modern terms.
That dont means nescessary are from different genetic stock as well dont prove that are from the same, but again how different could be.

The same goes as well at a parallel analogy with the Dorians and the so called "Myceneans" I think that mostly different social complexes mostly than
anything else. I use to reffer to them as the people of "inside" or "outside" the city walls.

Aegean is a place that very early applied advanced naval technology (and still today is). Good hardwood, full of waterproof renzins, support with the best way their efforts,
Islands are visible from the coast and the curiosity or a big need push them further and further... I dont really know what actually we have as minoan labyrinth in our mind but if it was something true about it, maybe that could be the Aegean itself and all the islands.
That maybe was the impression of the first sailors...


(The last paragraph was good for the example how we nominate/signify/classify, etc.)

[LABERIA]

From Albanians in another forum:

"topic - Happy I'm Not E1b
Oct 2, 2016 - I was afraid of that haplogroup because it exists in Somalia but J2b2, R1b does not.


EV13 are the Short Swarthy Gracile, Curlyhaired Meds while J2b2 are us tall, robust, light featured tribal Ghegnians who came down through the mountains and pushed everyone else the **** aside."

Come on, this can't be true, you are joking, lol.

[Aspurg]

Come on, this can't be true, you are joking, lol.

Nope, it is from that Apricity forum. Topic titled "Happy I'm Not E1b", just google the quote and you'll find it. That topic has been deleted though but it's still on the net.

[Aspurg]

First of all, who here is trying to say that V13 didn't take part in the Bronze Age expansion of IE speaking populations? Basically all of us agree that the most important clade under V13, CTS1273, took part in the Bronze Age expansion. We are also open to the idea of other clades under E-Y30977 having been present in the Carpathian-Steppe region for quite some time.

E-V13 itself does seem to have origins within EEF groups from the Balkans, the Cardium Pottery Culture is by far the most likely. I know there is some archaeological evidence suggesting some kind of North African cultural influence in this culture, but it still was EEF in the end of the day.

By "Some Albo's" you mean the odd one or two who have no idea what they are talking about and probably just trying to provoke others. Don't see why you're even them seriously to be honest.

Well yes E-V13 seems definitely Cardium related. And it was found in multiple Cardium sites, Dalmatia, Spain, and also some L618 from Sopot might be Cardium related because Sopot culture had Cardium connection. Autosomally Dalmatian E-L618 and others seem to have had minor Natufian like element, some have calculated about 3 % of Iberomaurisian-like. Generally they were close to Barcin Neolithic. More Eastern than usual EEF. But I can tell you they might have been alot more culturally "NA/Natufian", I mentioned some element of burial. They only buried chiefs and important individuals, others were left to be eaten in wilderness by animals etc. That practice is only attested in Maasai according to archaeologist who wrote about Dalmatian Cardium culture.

I remember some discussions on poreklo about V13's and some would downplay its presence in Albanians by saying "they aren't Illyrian anyway, they are Pelasgian etc". And few even believed that E-V13 descend of Pelasgians from Greece who were assimilated into Vlachs and who spread in Roman era around the Balkans. So non-Greek, non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, but "Neolithic". Some of those "I people" really really dislike E-V13. I've noticed some phenomenon as "I" are mostly non-IE they try to make up non-IEness by being "oldest in Europe", and so they are "lot older than E-V13" etc. In particular I remember one Y3120 mod saying V13 being "non-Greek, non-Illyrian, non-Thracian but Neolithic who disintegrated under IE pressure", I asked him if they "disintegrated" how come they thrived at that particular time. Some projection here as it is I-CTS10228 who disintegrated as they have only one branch-off in 2900 years before the Y3120 expansion.

About some Albanians having bad feelings toward V13, probably influenced by the fact that E-V13 in general is high in Greeks while J-L283 or BY611 are not (except mostly Arvanites).

[Johane Derite]

Something I worked on.

1. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Albanians represent 60.8 % of Albanian E-V13 linegaes.
Gjenetika.com 141/232
E-Z38456>BY4461 35
E-Y146086 30
E-FGC33625 26
E-PH2180 22
E-Y173822 17
E-Z27131 11




2. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Montenegrins represent 72.0 % of Montenegrin E-V13 linegaes.
Mirabal et al. 77/107
E-BY165837 Kuchi 27
E-BY14151 Vasojevici 21
E-Y133830 Bjelopavlici 11
E-A18833 Bjelice 7
E-Z38456>BY4461 7
E-PH1173 4






3. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Bulgarians represent 17.0 % of Bulgarian E-V13 linegaes.
24/141 (Bulgarian FTDNA project, Karachanak et al, Begona Martinez-Cruz et al)
E-S7461(389b=29) 6
E-A18833 5
E-Y3183* 4
E-S7461>BY5465 3
E-PH1173 3
E-Z5018* 3


I remember once Leki was talking about Bulgaria being "repopulated" when he tried to downplay diversity in Bulgaria, is this proof of Bulgarian E-V13 deriving from Albanians?? Most of Albanians fall under bottlenecks with recent expansion. Albanian clusters may only comprise a negligible percentage of Bulgarian E-V13 lineages.

In Bulgarians most common clusters don't make any significant difference. They and especially Romanians have have far more still unprofiled E-V13's. On the other hand in Albanians and Montenegrins they make a lot of difference.


Montenegrins are an interesting case as NONE of their most common E-V13 clusters is native to Montenegro (Vasojevici likely came from Herzegovina, others from SE). None of these go past Middle Ages. There are some natives like � aranci (who are maybe PH1246) etc but they are not common.

I haven't done this for Greeks but they have lots of unclassifiable haplotypes too, while having some numerous clusters like E-PH1173 subcluster and others.

But your sources are not valid comparison since you aren't just including ftdna. Gjenetika is voluntary and while we have a lot of personal tests with respect to frequency, there arent that many ngs tests or deeper tests beyond 37 markers comparatively.

Secondly, you have actual studies with proper protocol from the bulgarian side (Karachanak bulgarian Y chromosome diversity for example). Their studies specifically aim to maximise penetration of as many clades as possible, so they are not gonna choose for example 26 tests to do of the Berisha clan or something like that, whereas in gjenetika this is what has happened so you get the same result many times as it is a voluntary project and many people from the same clan do the test even if there are already people of that clan.

If we have a proper study of Y-lineage diversity across all albanian villages, clans, territories, i'm sure we will see much more diversity.

Secondly, a big percentage of those clades in bulgarians will be ex-albanians.

All the contemproary linguists, even matzinger who argues for Albanian language not being illyrian but balkan hinterland language, says that proto-Albanian does not fit thracian.

He says that Shtip and Nish are secure locations for proto-Albanian speakers definitely were when slavs invaded. Shkup is also likely. But obviously these territories do not exhaust where proto-albanians were, rather it is just the ones that are definitely 100% secure from the linguistic perspective. West balkans like Vlora, Ragusa, etc also have many Albanian phonetic transformations, so we know Albanian speakers were there also.

You seem to be pushing for thracian as proto-Albanian, but what is your linguistic evidence for this?