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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    But your sources are not valid comparison since you aren't just including ftdna. Gjenetika is voluntary and while we have a lot of personal tests with respect to frequency, there arent that many ngs tests or deeper tests beyond 37 markers comparatively.
    I included only Gjenetika because your sample is large enough, I couldn't bother to go through studies and pick up these clusters individually but the percentage would have been similar. For Montenegrins the sample from the sutdy is also good at 404. And it can be seen they had good samples, because only recently some of haplotypes from that study have been appearing. I wanted more samples with STR's for Bulgarian sample so I took into account more sources.
    But you are nitpicking, I remember how common are some clusters like BY4461 and FGC11450's in Arberesh study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Secondly, you have actual studies with proper protocol from the bulgarian side (Karachanak bulgarian Y chromosome diversity for example). Their studies specifically aim to maximise penetration of as many clades as possible, so they are not gonna choose for example 26 tests to do of the Berisha clan or something like that, whereas in gjenetika this is what has happened so you get the same result many times as it is a voluntary project and many people from the same clan do the test even if there are already people of that clan.
    Nope in Bulgarian regional study they only tested E-V13, others from that study were assigned to the cluster by myself because I know V13 clades so well. And I might say I made no mistakes there as some of those clusters are so well defined and they usually match Bulgarians from FTDNA.

    Your own cluster is very common in Kosovo Albanians. In that study on a sample of 113, still about 12% I think were of your cluster. So your cluster is well represented in Kosovo regardless of what methodology is applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Secondly, a big percentage of those clades in bulgarians will be ex-albanians.
    Utterly baseless based upon my analysis. I mean look: 60 % of Albanians are of those 6 clusters, you'd expect Bulgarians also to carry them to a large degree and that's not the case. In Bulgarians no cluster is that significant which is in line with high diversity there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    All the contemproary linguists, even matzinger who argues for Albanian language not being illyrian but balkan hinterland language, says that proto-Albanian does not fit thracian.
    Well from some things I read it doesn't indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    You seem to be pushing for thracian as proto-Albanian, but what is your linguistic evidence for this?
    No, I don't. I know many spoke on that topic, but there are numerous problems for that. Someone better try looking at Orel's proto-Albanian and compare that to Illyrian, Thracian etc. Albanian might have some connection to some other languages potentially too. How about some Paeonian connection?

    At poreklo (and by some Serbian linguists I might add) Thracian theory is pushed to make Albanians into migrants. So that Slavs/Serbs have been there before Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well yes E-V13 seems definitely Cardium related. And it was found in multiple Cardium sites, Dalmatia, Spain, and also some L618 from Sopot might be Cardium related because Sopot culture had Cardium connection. Autosomally Dalmatian E-L618 and others seem to have had minor Natufian like element, some have calculated about 3 % of Iberomaurisian-like. Generally they were close to Barcin Neolithic. More Eastern than usual EEF. But I can tell you they might have been alot more culturally "NA/Natufian", I mentioned some element of burial. They only buried chiefs and important individuals, others were left to be eaten in wilderness by animals etc. That practice is only attested in Maasai according to archaeologist who wrote about Dalmatian Cardium culture.

    I remember some discussions on poreklo about V13's and some would downplay its presence in Albanians by saying "they aren't Illyrian anyway, they are Pelasgian etc". And few even believed that E-V13 descend of Pelasgians from Greece who were assimilated into Vlachs and who spread in Roman era around the Balkans. So non-Greek, non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, but "Neolithic". Some of those "I people" really really dislike E-V13. I've noticed some phenomenon as "I" are mostly non-IE they try to make up non-IEness by being "oldest in Europe", and so they are "lot older than E-V13" etc. In particular I remember one Y3120 mod saying V13 being "non-Greek, non-Illyrian, non-Thracian but Neolithic who disintegrated under IE pressure", I asked him if they "disintegrated" how come they thrived at that particular time. Some projection here as it is I-CTS10228 who disintegrated as they have only one branch-off in 2900 years before the Y3120 expansion.

    About some Albanians having bad feelings toward V13, probably influenced by the fact that E-V13 in general is high in Greeks while J-L283 or BY611 are not (except mostly Arvanites).
    The North African cultural practices which were present in the Cardium Culture are certainly interesting. I was aware of the Maasai practice of leaving their dead in the open due to their belief that burials are bad for the earth, but I wasn't aware that it was only chieftains who got buried. Interestingly, the Maasai oral traditions state that they came from North Africa and their language is usually classified within Nilo-Saharic (a language group which seems to have originated somewhere in Northern Africa).

    The Albanians who try to hate on V13 are usually those from Pro-White forums. They try to make themselves seem as white as possible and so attack anything which doesn't seem white. V13 in their eyes doesn't seem white due to it supposedly being "African" or "black" originally. It's complete nonsense and just stupid to say the least.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The North African cultural practices which were present in the Cardium Culture are certainly interesting. I was aware of the Maasai practice of leaving their dead in the open due to their belief that burials are bad for the earth, but I wasn't aware that it was only chieftains who got buried. Interestingly, the Maasai oral traditions state that they came from North Africa and their language is usually classified within Nilo-Saharic (a language group which seems to have originated somewhere in Northern Africa).
    This practice is weird because only Maasai had it but there are others more important ones which actually might represent some very clear proof of V13 involvement. Still likely V13 arrived from the Levant and descend of Natufians (in a direct way), E-M78 was found in Pre Pottery Neolithic B, and autosomally Dalmatian Cardiums seem to show stronger affinity to PPNB than other EEF's. Nilo-Saharan family is also considered by some not to be real family. Maasai have some V12's which are related to main Somali lineage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The Albanians who try to hate on V13 are usually those from Pro-White forums. They try to make themselves seem as white as possible and so attack anything which doesn't seem white. V13 in their eyes doesn't seem white due to it supposedly being "African" or "black" originally. It's complete nonsense and just stupid to say the least.
    Well E-M35 might have been originally Ancestral North African which is a very distant relative to some proto Bantu's but still very different to them (TMRCA 42 K ybp). But if its about "white" Dalmatian E-L618 8000 years ago had the mutation for light skin, and Old Europeans were not "white", they were black skinned light eyed WHG's. Actually other Dalmatian C-V20 also had it but the 3rd person (female) with little bit of WHG ancestry did not!!! She also had multiple blue eyes mutations due to WHG ancestry. Like 10 k years ago there were no "white people" on the planet. Hg R is of Asian distant origin being related to Amerindian and proto-Turkic Q, but similar thing happened between the original clades of one of most dominant language families Afroasiatic and Indoeuropean. E-M35 pastoralists wandered around taking wives of Eurasians for Milleniums, same happened with R's who took so many WHG genes to make up their new "EHG" and then eradicate the ones whose genes they took.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    What, pray tell, do the last dozens of posts have to do with the origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans?

    Get back on topic, please.

    If you want to discuss these topics, find an appropriate thread and copy paste your discussions there.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post


    Utterly baseless based upon my analysis. I mean look: 60 % of Albanians are of those 6 clusters, you'd expect Bulgarians also to carry them to a large degree and that's not the case. In Bulgarians no cluster is that significant which is in line with high diversity there.
    Check page 152 of Katicic's Ancient Languages of the Balkans. Also, don't forget Shtip, which even Matzinger accepts must have had proto Albanian speakers, and that there are at least 4 towns in Bulgaria today that are named "Arbanasi" and identify as bulgarians today, let alone monasteries and more less obvious Albanian toponyms.


    But, we should move this discussion to another thread, we can agree that for the most part, EV13 is not a really greek lineage and was most likely not in mycenaeans. I stand by the Illyrian proper theory which seems to be the central in between thracian and delmato-pannonian, with its eastern branches mostly absorbed into bulgarians in early medieval times, and western branches put under more bottleneck pressure .
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    with its eastern branches mostly absorbed into bulgarians in early medieval times, and western branches put under more bottleneck pressure .
    You are as hopelessly deluded as a parachutist with a couple of large holes in his parachute expecting a soft landing.


    Now back to the topic. Some J2a clades found in Crete (FTDNA):
    J-Z39482 in 3 Greeks (under M319), these look very Minoan
    J-S15439>Z40068 (predicted), should be Minoan as well
    J-Z2227, nothing under predicted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Something I worked on.

    1. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Albanians represent 60.8 % of Albanian E-V13 linegaes...

    2. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Montenegrins represent 72.0 % of Montenegrin E-V13 linegaes...

    3. Six most common E-V13 clusters in Bulgarians represent 17.0 % of Bulgarian E-V13 linegaes...
    You know this is largely a reflection of clan lineage domination and expansion in the last 500-800 years. Greek and Bulgarian E-V13 obviously would not be affected by this. That is not how diversity works in relation to historical presence btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Montenegrins are an interesting case as NONE of their most common E-V13 clusters is native to Montenegro (Vasojevici likely came from Herzegovina, others from SE). None of these go past Middle Ages. There are some natives like Šaranci (who are maybe PH1246) etc but they are not common.
    I don't think so. They may in fact be from farther south hence their relations to Albanian clans. You have now Bukimiri belonging to their cluster, who were natives in Malesi e Madhe (Kuqi/Trieshi region). Good part of these clusters migrated up north during Ottoman period..

    Same thing for Kuqi, Bjelopavlici and Bjelica clusters. Also add to that the PH2180 fellas.

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    OK.

    If you guys don't stop all these off topic Albanian discussions I will close the thread temporarily and I will also delete all these posts.

    ENOUGH.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    .
    Very interesting posts guys.
    I will just deal with the tittle of the thread which is allready "strange" for me and I mean by that: -How different could they be?
    More or less I have allready express my opinion at other threads, ( for Griffin warrior and for the engraved funeral items) I dont want to repeat myself ,as
    also not to prove something to anybody.

    I believe that they are not dramatically so different from the biological perspective for the issue, as for example it may be for the differences beetween them
    if compared as composed and advanced societies.

    Someone could say that the absolut indication for the question -to whom they are-, is their genetic profile. (haplogroups etc, etc.) Unfortunatelly for them the
    samples are few to have a concrete conclusion from that aspect. So if it is not unstable to build on theories up on few findings, at least is bit silly to consider
    that civilizations emerged from "special" or -what's next -, from not so special "haplogroups;
    -Please guys...


    Allthough all that new informations of the "newborn" science (genetics;) look indisputable, the fancy coloured maps, the long lettered and numberd codes, etc
    etc. we are very far to conclude safely for a population, if not also for an individual iself.


    At least for my case:
    "...I am not a number(haplogroup), I'm a free mαn..."
    I was about to give you a downthumb for this post, but I did not because I think it has been written without "malice". Maybe I misunderstood your post?
    You may think what you want, but I think the aim of this thread and the whole genetic thing attached to it is to find out if some important enough modification in genes, so surely a demic external input, is involved in the cultural and linguistical change, whatever the weight of it. As almost all our threads here. How much can genetics help us to understand history changes?
    Sure, everyones can think it's without importance. Life runs, and we pass, all of us, and our civilisations too in someway. So, it would be better to stay without to think or have questions?
    If you are a free man, your are lucky.
    just a technical point: if a population is stable and homogenous, 5 autosomal ADN is enough to have a correct sketche. For uniparental haplo's it's an other question.
    No offense, it is not my gaol.

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    Nm, let's do get back on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I was about to give you a downthumb for this post, but I did not because I think it has been written without "malice". Maybe I misunderstood your post?
    You may think what you want, but I think the aim of this thread and the whole genetic thing attached to it is to find out if some important enough modification in genes, so surely a demic external input, is involved in the cultural and linguistical change, whatever the weight of it. As almost all our threads here. How much can genetics help us to understand history changes?
    Sure, everyones can think it's without importance. Life runs, and we pass, all of us, and our civilisations too in someway. So, it would be better to stay without to think or have questions?
    If you are a free man, your are lucky.
    just a technical point: if a population is stable and homogenous, 5 autosomal ADN is enough to have a correct sketche. For uniparental haplo's it's an other question.
    No offense, it is not my gaol.
    My point was that people dont sprew like carrots as well the cultures and civilizations. I meant by that, that all civilizations are mix of two or more other previous ones. I think is more simple now and sorry for my English.
    The genetics is not my forte, so I dont carry any heavy opinion for the matter and I dont participate to any threads of that kind for that raeson, allthough I inform my self from the forums, like reading a newspaper. -My posts are few and sorry for being naive.., but malicious; Sorry.


    Anyway, thanks for the technical points. I suppose that would be helpfull as well for the more experted members...
    Also I would like to guaranty you that I never said that: The biological aspect of the matter it is without "importance", as well I would never recommend someone not to "think" or stay without "questions". Not at all, but the opposite amd I am clear about that.
    I just said that is more philosophical than biological the question "Who I am" or "Who we are" or "Who are they..." because at the end of the story we are all engaged to that giving "name things".I meant that the genetic profile of a person is not the absolut criterion of the big question -"who am I ?"


    The line "I am not a number, I am a free man" is from a movie...
    I personally I am not yet "free" like all of us I suppose, but sure I am lucky.
    I didn;t offended because I think that you missed my really point and maybe the reason is my bad english.
    I did not derailed the thread.
    Best luck to your goals, and thanks for the "interaction".

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    @ΠΑΝΑΞ

    OK for kind answer.
    I did not opposed to your views, but the most of us was/is aware of this psychological philosophical aspect of culture.
    I had understood your english, for the most!
    But anybody can and may open a thread on these non-genetical aspect.
    Good week-end.

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