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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Interesting, Blevins! Thanks for sharing.

    What is this book? (did you already say in a previous post and I missed it?)
    IMG_3925.jpg



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Attachment 11531

    Consider this as well.


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    Indeed, chariots and swords appeared in the Carpathian short before arriving in the Mycenean world.
    They must have had a common origin, the steppe.
    However I don't think this 3.6 ka Carpathian is the origin of the Celts or Germans.
    Haplo R1b-L21 arrived 4-4.5 ka on the British Isles and 80 % of the Irish still have the same Y-DNA.

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Indeed, chariots and swords appeared in the Carpathian short before arriving in the Mycenean world.
    They must have had a common origin, the steppe.
    However I don't think this 3.6 ka Carpathian is the origin of the Celts or Germans.
    Haplo R1b-L21 arrived 4-4.5 ka on the British Isles and 80 % of the Irish still have the same Y-DNA.
    If I understand it correctly, according to this book Is suggested that Mycenaean came form Anatolia not from the Carpathian Basin


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    If I understand it correctly, according to this book Is suggested that Mycenaean came form Anatolia not from the Carpathian Basin


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    yes, genetics says Minoans are 100 % Anatolian and Mycenians 80 % Anatolian and 20 % steppe
    but some elements came from the steppe, like the charriot, and probably also the swords
    even in the tholos thombs, some see some parallels with Catacomb culture
    again, it is dificult, because there may also be some steppe influences in Trialeti
    just like it is suggested Greek and Armenian languages have some things in common

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "As for Khaldi, his holy city was called Ardini. There was also a Urartian-era god named Ardinis, who seems to have been a separate deity from Khaldi. Anyway, in pagan Armenian, ar=sun and di=god, and the sun was worshipped as the primary god. Khaldi could theoretically have had dialectical variation Hardi, the H being an intensifier, L and R sometimes being transferrable (Araratian=Alarodian, etc). The city of Ardini was called "the city of the raven"--the raven being, if I remember correctly, a creature who's feathers had been scorched black by the sun. However, I also found a reference once to the Greeks of the Near East worshipping Khaldi, but I don't remember where I saw this.".
    There could certainly have been dialectal variation. This letter interchangeability is also common in Greek by the way. Like for example we say both "αδερφός/αδελφός" (aderfos/adelfos) which translates as "brother", among many other examples. Also, take into account that Khaldi, Ardini, and Theispas all formed a male triad in the Urartian pantheon, which can be seen as additional corroboration.


    But we also have to consider the Hurrian word "heldi" (high, tall) which also seems to be related to PIE root *h₂el- (to grow, nourish), https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82el-#Proto-Indo-European. As a sidenote to this, Hurrian seems to possess a huge amount of common roots with PIE, to the point that some scholars even suggest that Hurro-Urartian derived from PIE. Look for example at French linguist Arnaud Fournet, https://www.academia.edu/40055347/PIE_roots_in_Hurrian.

    I haven't looked into whether the Greeks of the Near East began worshiping Khaldi, but i wouldn't be surprised bearing in mind that Greeks were/are highly syncretic people, and if they saw common attributes in relation to one of their Gods and a foreign God, they wouldn't be making distinctions because they understood these attributes as universal.

    Last, we also have an almost identical story to that of Ardini and the raven. With no other than the God of the Sun (among other attributes), Apollo. According to Greek mythology, Apollo sent a white raven to spy on his lover, Coronis (Thessalian princess and mother of Asclepius). When the raven brought back the news that Coronis had been unfaithful to him, Apollo scorched the raven in his fury, turning the animal's feathers black. In fact, the raven is one of Apollo's main symbols.


    You write, "I really like your theory relating many of these names to iron. It would make a lot of sense. I like this theory for the Armenian endonym "Hay" too (originally apparently Hatiyo) much more than I like other theories. I'm not sure if the Chaldoi were connected or not, there was obviously also Chaldea in Mesopotamia, which seems it would have a more direct and better link to Khaldi if Khaldi were an Akkadian god originally (but then there is still the Armenian, or at least Indo-European, -di element to Khaldi's name).".
    I believe Chaldoi, Hay, and other regional people were related in one way or another, and i don't think these Anatolian Chaldoi had anything to do with the Mesopotamian ones, Khaldi (God) aside since he is more complex.

    You write, "
    I have noticed the Di- element in Diana's name too, I just thought that it was interesting that Anahid and Diana were equated with one another and spelling their names backwards almost renders the other name, especially for versions of the name Anahid like Anaitis. I have reservations regarding Anahid being an Iranian loan into Armenian/Anatolian/Greek and think that perhaps she was loaned from the west into the Iranian-sphere. So maybe Anahid was originally Dione. Or maybe there isn't a connection at all.".
    I personally don't think Anahid and Dione or Diana were related directly. But we could hypothesize a relation for the syllable ana/one present in all three, through what appears to be a "lallnamen word" (that is to say words with open syllables that are easily produced by babies and therefore common in many language families) or an extremely old word of some hypothetical proto-proto-language. For example, we find words for mother with versions like Ana/Anna/Ama respectively in many Indo-European languages, the Basque language, the Altaic languages, the Eskimo-Aleut languages, the Semitic languages, and even in Sumerian like with the Sumerian Goddesses Inanna and Geshtinanna or in Hurrian with the Hurrian Mother Goddess Ḫannaḫanna, that all seem to be etymologically related.

    This root could also be related to the Greek word "Ἄναξ" (Anax) which translates as "high king". It was initially used for Mycenaean rulers and later on for Gods. It could in fact be a pre-Greek Neolithic remnant of when there was a central Mother Goddess worship. Who knows, maybe it was one of the Mother Goddess's priest epithets that was eventually inherited by Mycenaean leaders, who were known to have religious responsibilities. Along the same lines, i don't find accidental that their royal palaces known as "ἀνάκτορον" (anáktoron) and situated in acropoleis/citadels, present many similarities to earlier Greek Neolithic sites. In fact, the settlement of Dimini, which succeeded the Sesklo culture (earliest Neolithic culture of Europe), is very similar to later Mycenaean "ἀνάκτορα" (anaktora), with their "Megarons", "Stone Walls" (including 2nd and 3rd interior walls), and "Stone Gates". Have a look at the following related video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odfqc3gvMyY. In fact, it is believed that the great Mycenaean "ἀνάκτορον" (anáktoron) of Iolcus (Jason was from there) is located in modern-day Dimini. Of course i should also mention that IE Greek "ἄνω/ανα" (ánō/aná) meaning "high up or above", could also be related.

    Last, is there any etymology on the suffixes of Armenian last names ending with -ian/-yan. Could it be related to this ancient Hurrian and i should also add Hittite word for mother or grandmother? For example we know that the Hittite word for grandmother is "ḫanna", in Armenian "han", in ancient Greek "ἀννίς" (annís), etc.. Could it have originally been a matrilineal suffix? Again, i am talking about Armenian last names.


    You write, "
    As far as Trialeti-Vanadzor and Hayasa, I don't know if there is any direct archaeological evidence specifically/certainly related to Hayasa at all. However, the Trialeti-Vanazdor ceramic ware did develop into the "Transcaucasian" ceramic ware, which has been associated with the expansion of the Mushki and Urumeans into Assyria and SE Anatolia in the late Bronze Age. One thing that Armenian, Greek, and Turkish academics all agree on is that these groups seem to have come from N
    E Turkey/Armenia and not the west.
    https://docplayer.net/108120425-The-mushki-problem-reconsidered.html
    http://www.mku.edu.tr/files/1113_dosya_1355509802.pdf".

    Yeah, i also view the Mushki as NE-Anatolian or Transcaucasian originally. But what are your views on their linguistic affiliation. Do you view them as originally Kartvelian, North Caucasian, IE, or Hurro-Urartian (which can also be related to IE)? The distribution of what appear to be cognates is regionally broad. Could it even be a Neolithic remnant?

    I just thought of something that might relate. Maybe the name "Mushki" relates to the PIE root *mosǵʰ-o-, and the Greek/Armenian words "μόσχος" (móskhos)/"mozi" respectively, which translate as "young cow or bull". Now, we all know the sacredness of bulls throughout much of the ancient world. If the above etymology is correct, it would render the "Mushki" as "people of the Bull/Cow", as in worshipers. Don't know, just an idea.

    You write, "
    I'll check out the studies you linked in the coming few days when I can give them the appropriate amount of attention.".
    Sure, i personally found it very interesting. The Caucasus is central to understanding a lot of things, and this study presented a broad picture of its prehistory. By the way, here is the rest of the supplementary information, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/322347v1.supplementary-material.

    You write, "
    The Greek word "angelos" is believed to have been loaned into Greek from another language. Personally, I believe that it came from Armenian.
    To me, this is supportive of further, very ancient, contacts between Armenians and Greeks.".
    Greek "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) could be an evolution from the respective Mycenaean word "a-ke-ro". But it could also be related to Persian "ángaros" (Persian mounted courier). In Old Persian "angarā" means "letter".

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, genetics says Minoans are 100 % Anatolian and Mycenians 80 % Anatolian and 20 % steppe
    but some elements came from the steppe, like the charriot, and probably also the swords
    even in the tholos thombs, some see some parallels with Catacomb culture
    again, it is dificult, because there may also be some steppe influences in Trialeti
    just like it is suggested Greek and Armenian languages have some things in common
    From the study, "This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry.". Also, "The Minoans could be modelled as a mixture of the Anatolia Neolithic-related substratum with additional ‘eastern’ ancestry, but the other two groups had additional ancestry: the Mycenaeans had ~4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia.......". That makes the approximate Neolithic ancestry (namely Anatolian) of the Minoans and Mycenaeans 74%. By the way, the referenced "eastern ancestry" refers to Caucasus/Iran which in turn relates to the CHGs (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers) from an earlier context. This ancestry was also present in EBA Anatolia, and could have reached the Aegean either through some of the Anatolian people (which included IEs) or could have come directly from Transcaucasia. Steppe ancestry was rather low in Mycenaeans, considering past hypotheses, and ranged between 4-16%, or more precisely 4.4%, 5.2%, 6.5%, 13.3%, and 16.1% for each individual Mycenaean sample listed.

    As for the Mycenaean "tholoi" tombs. It is common to confuse "tholoi" with "kurgans" but they are not the same. In the case of Mycenaeans they appear as direct influence from or common heritage with the Minoans. Minoan "tholoi" tombs have been found earlier than the Mycenaean period, on the Minoan island of Crete. More than seventy of these tombs are known from upwards of forty-five different sites. The vast majority of these tombs are located in the south of the island, mostly in and around the Messara plain. The earliest "tholoi" are dated at approximately 3,000 BCE. For over a millennium, this type of tomb appears to be the only one commonly employed for burial in southern Crete and in some instances such tombs were still being used well into the Late Bronze Age. We also find such "tholoi" tombs in the Chalcolithic/Eneolithic Los Millares culture of Spain. And last, we also see very few but indicative examples of what appear to be early forms of "tholoi" in some Neolithic "passage graves" of Brittany in north-western France.

    Minoan Tholos

    Los Millares Tholos
    ae11217c06c1eededd9c2467a0e8fdb8.jpg

    Reconstruction of the Larmor-Baden Passage Grave (Brittany in north-western France)

    I should also mention that Cretan "Μιτάτα" (Mitata), used today for transhumance purposes, appear to be direct descendants of this architectural tradition.
    Cretan "Μιτάτο" (Mitato)
    Last edited by Demetrios; 04-11-19 at 21:53.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some Mycenaean examples of a "tholos" for comparison. Namely the famous "Treasury of Atreus" in Mycenae.


    And a less fortunate "tholos" at the site of Amblianos in Amphissa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    From the study, "This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry.". Also, "The Minoans could be modelled as a mixture of the Anatolia Neolithic-related substratum with additional ‘eastern’ ancestry, but the other two groups had additional ancestry: the Mycenaeans had ~4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia.......". That makes the approximate Neolithic ancestry (namely Anatolian) of the Minoans and Mycenaeans 74%. By the way, the referenced "eastern ancestry" refers to Caucasus/Iran which in turn relates to the CHGs (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers) from an earlier context. This ancestry was also present in EBA Anatolia, and could have reached the Aegean either through some of the Anatolian people (which included IEs) or could have come directly from Transcaucasia. Steppe ancestry was rather low in Mycenaeans, considering past hypotheses, and ranged between 4-16%, or more precisely 4.4%, 5.2%, 6.5%, 13.3%, and 16.1% for each individual Mycenaean sample listed.

    As for the Mycenaean "tholoi" tombs. It is common to confuse "tholoi" with "kurgans" but they are not the same. In the case of Mycenaeans they appear as direct influence from or common heritage with the Minoans. Minoan "tholoi" tombs have been found earlier than the Mycenaean period, on the Minoan island of Crete. More than seventy of these tombs are known from upwards of forty-five different sites. The vast majority of these tombs are located in the south of the island, mostly in and around the Messara plain. The earliest "tholoi" are dated at approximately 3,000 BCE. For over a millennium, this type of tomb appears to be the only one commonly employed for burial in southern Crete and in some instances such tombs were still being used well into the Late Bronze Age. We also find such "tholoi" tombs in the Chalcolithic/Eneolithic Los Millares culture of Spain. And last, we also see very few but indicative examples of what appear to be early forms of "tholoi" in some Neolithic "passage graves" of Brittany in north-western France.

    Minoan Tholos

    Los Millares Tholos
    ae11217c06c1eededd9c2467a0e8fdb8.jpg

    Reconstruction of the Larmor-Baden Passage Grave (Brittany in north-western France)

    I should also mention that Cretan "Μιτάτα" (Mitata), used today for transhumance purposes, appear to be direct descendants of this architectural tradition.
    Cretan "Μιτάτο" (Mitato)
    It is ridiculous that the science still is not able to answer a simple question, where Mycenaeans came from? Anatolia or Carpathian basin?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    It is ridiculous that the science still is not able to answer a simple question, where Mycenaeans came from? Anatolia or Carpathian basin?


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    Local people I think they were. Occasionally, others from other parts appeared to celebrate them ... or to have cause for war...

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    Yes! I'm familiar with Fournet's and Bomhard's theory regarding the Hurro-Urartians having separated from IE prior to Anatolian. It's absolutely fascinating and I believe makes a lot of sense. If Pre-Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the South Caucasus (Armenia/northern Iran) originally, and if Kura-Araxes was Hurro-Urartian speaking (which has been suggested by some researchers and which I ascribe to) it wouldn't be a stretch at all for PIE and Hurro-Urartian to have had a common ancestor--they originated in the same geographic region and probably around the same time. I think I said this in a post some months ago, but I think that within the next couple of decades, PIE will be reoriented to Armenia/Iran and may include Hurro-Urartian, Yamnaya will be called something like "Classic Indo-European."

    Fascinating story about Apollo and the raven and Khaldi and the raven--which begs the question, was this a Hurro-Urartian story or a Greco-Armenian story?

    I wonder if Ana/Ama, etc are prehistoric words that go back (tens) of thousands of years? According to the prevalent theory, Anahid means something like "without blemish" in Iranian. Again, "an" being a negating prefix like "un". The fact that "ano" meant "high" in Ancient Greek is interesting because the Sumerian god of the sky was "Anu." There is a theory that links Anahid to this word.

    Supposedly Armenian ian/yan originally came from Iranian or PIE. Originally it was -ean, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, -ian means the same thing in English as it does in Armenian. I do think that some Armenian noble names may come from Urartian. Armenian noble names like Yervanduni, Rshtuni, etc. The possessive marker in Armenian is -i (an "ee" sound in English), which may come from Hurro-Urartian (compare with Urartian -hi/-khi/-ni, which are all variations of "belonging to"--the same as Armenian "ian/yan"). I do think that it's possible that Anahid (Ani) is related to "Hanna" via Urartian "Aiaini"/Inuani," which are probably connected to Inanna too. I think Anahid is also connected to Anath.

    As for the Mushki, there isn't much about them, but we do know that one of their kings was named Mita, which is an Anatolian IE name and generally regarded as being connected to Greek/Phrygian Midas. One theory about the name Mushki is that the root is "mush" or "mus" and the k is the Classical Armenian plural marker "k'" (for example, Armenians still call Persians "Barsik," which literally means "Parsis" in English). Or maybe it's a dialectical version of Urartian "khi" (although the Urartians called them Mushkini)? "Tribe of Mush" (there is a city near Lake Van called Mush). What very little we know about them points toward them being Indo-European. Their allies were the Urumu (as written in Akkadian cuneiform). This could have been Aramu/Arama (U and A were interchangeable in cuneiform). So perhaps Diakonoff was right after all, but he got the direction wrong--they didn't come from the west but came from the east. Long story short, the circumstantial evidence points to them having been an Indo-European people.

    I think that Persian "angaros" makes more sense than Mycenaean "a-ke-ro," especially if "agaros" could be rendered "angalos," however, I think that the idea of Armenian "Angel/Angegh," meaning "invisible"/"supernatural" seems as apt, if not more, than "messenger" (but I've heard this "messenger" theory before). Interesting though how "angaros" does look like a Greek word.
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 05-11-19 at 08:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Very interesting stuff, Demetrios!".
    Thanks.


    You write, "
    A few other possible connections that I've read:
    The Urartian god Khaldi (sometimes written Haldi) may have been related to Helios, the -di possibly being the Classical Armenian word for "god." It should be noted that Khaldi is presumed to be a loan into the Urartian pantheon, possibly from the Akkadians.".
    I have read of this hypothesis which i find interesting but i have a different view when it comes to "Ἥλιος" (Hḗlios). The original proto-Greek was ᾱ̓ϝέλιος (hāwélios), which had actually survived in the ancient Cretan dialect. In the other Dorian dialects as well as the Aeolic and Arcadocypriot it had evolved as ᾱ̓έλιος (hāélios), while in Ionic, Attic, Koine, and Modern as "ἥλιος" (hḗlios). Etymologically it could be of either pre-Greek or IE origin, and both have been suggested.

    Furthermore, i see the name of the Urartian god "Khaldi" as a cognate of the very interesting pre-IE Anatolian people known as "Khaldi/Haldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes". These people seem to have been related to pre-IE Hatti (of whom their name could be a cognate), Hayašans (of whom their name could be a cognate), and maybe Hurro-Urartians as well. Their name is certainly related to the Hattic word "ḫapalki" (in Hurrian "ḫabalgi") which means hard iron, namely "steel", hence the Greek word "χάλυψ/χάλυβας" (chalyps/chalybas) which translates as "steel". As a sidenote, a famous etymology of Hayašans is also related to metals through PIE áyos (metal). Could these roots be related as a result of a pre-proto-language, or because one influenced the other, i don't know but it is an interesting correlation. They (Chaldoi) played a central role in the initiation of the Iron Age, which in their case had began some 1000 years earlier than the official chronology. Interestingly enough, it's not accidental that iron/steel began spreading after the collapse of the Hittite Empire, which had subjugated the aforementioned people and valued their knowledge as a State secret. This is something very few people know or notice.

    In any case, i also believe that "Khaldi" (God) could be related to Gr
    aeco-Armenian or broader Indo-European for that matter, since we also have Greek "Δίας" (Días - alternative name of Zeus) and Latin "Deus" (God or deity) among others. At least for the last syllable. Along the same lines, i also find interesting that the Mycenaean Linear B (adapted from Minoan Linear A) sign for the syllable "KA/KHA/CHA" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B#/media/File:Linear_B_Syllable_B077_KA.svg) is the famous solar symbol known as the "Sun cross" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross). Who knows, maybe "Khaldi" translates as "Sun God" or "Heavenly God" or "Heavenly Father" or "Divine Sun".

    It is also of interest to note that the Mycenaean Linear B word for copper is "KA-KO", while in later Greek copper became "χαλκός" (chalkos). Μaybe the root is related to the etymology of the aforementioned metal folks. Could add more but my answer is too compacted, just providing ideas.

    You write, "
    There is a theory that Artemis was of Hurrian origins. (https://pies.ucla.edu/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf)".
    You had proposed that in the past as well but i wasn't very fond of it back then. In any case, i just went through the aforementioned Ivanov paper and i found his arguments compelling. It can very well be the case, especially onomatologically.

    You write, "
    There is a theory that Diana was a form of Anahid (perhaps the name was considered too holy and said backwards--Diana backwards is Anaid).".
    I have a different view on this. "Diana" seems to be a cognate of the Indo-European root i mentioned above which pertains to "God, deity, or divine". There is also an interesting correlation to Greek "Διώνη" (Dione) which is viewed as the female side/counterpart of "Δίας" (Días - alternative name of Zeus). Both of them were actually venerated as patron/matron deities in the oldest Greek oracle and second in prestige after the one of Delphi, namely the one at Dodona. They represented a syzygy, namely a pair of opposites like Yin and Yang in Chinese philosophy. Syncretistically their case is similar to the Latin Janus and Jana, Jupiter (equivalent of Zeus) and Juno (equivalent of Hera - wife of Zeus), or the twins Apollo (same in Greek) and Diana (equivalent of Artemis) which are most probably an anachronistic archetype of the same story. It's not accidental that Apollo and Diana/Artemis are also Gods of the Sun and Moon respectively, and we all know of the symbolic duality attached to these astronomical objects.

    Last, there were many characters with the name "Διώνη" (Dione) in Greek mythology as you can read here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_(mythology). I only mention the above version because it is so emphatically related to the aforementioned IE root for "God, deity, or divine", being the counterpart for the King of the Gods, namely "Δίας" (Días).

    You write, "
    There is a somewhat popular, but far from universally accepted, theory that Hurro-Urartian was somehow connected to Etruscan. If they made it to Italy why couldn't some of them have stayed in the Greek islands along the way?".
    The whole Etruscan story is very complicated, i cannot really comment on that now. I would wait until the upcoming Italian studies get published as it concerns their genetics. But personally i am more of the view that the majority of Etruscans were largely indigenous or broadly northern Italian, also taking into account the related Rhaetian language that was spoken in the eastern Alps. Now, that doesn't negate the possibility of being related to Hurro-Urartian, if we look at it from a Neolithic or Chalcolithic/Eneolithic context. But for now all these are far from universally accepted and certainly hypothetical.

    You write, "
    Just saw the above Trialeti link. Researchers seem to be veering toward Trialeti-Vanadzor being Indo-European, or at least having an Indo-European element. I think it's very likely that they were the Proto-Armenians. They expanded throughout modern Armenian and about as far west as Erzerum, Turkey. Soon after they "disappeared" Hayasa-Azzi materialized in modern NE Turkey. I suspect that Trialeti-Vanadzor either transitioned into Hayasa (perhaps the tribes confederated to protect themselves from the Hittites and/or Assyrians) in the mid-2nd millennium BCE or were already called Hayasa, but the Hittite records from the mid-2nd millennium are merely the first (or first surviving) records of that name. Hayasa is presumably a Hittite rendering of Hayk'/Hayastan, both Armenian names for Armenia.".
    It is a nice hypothesis. But is there any archaeological corroboration in order to associate Trialeti-Vanadzor to Hayasa-Azzi? Furthermore, i also consider the possibility that Hayk/Hayastan could be a pre-Armenian adoption by proto-Armenians, maybe i am wrong though. I am certainly not jumping to conclusions on this because the etymologies are mixed, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B0%D5%A1%D5%B5#Old_Armenian. In any case, that doesn't mean they are relatively different people, i am only referring to the language here. Proto-Armenian could have been adopted by pre-Armenian people, while they kept their original pre-Armenian name. But again, this is just a hypothesis which also takes into account the Armenian autosomal profile.

    You write, "
    The question is, did Trialeti-Vanadzor, if indeed Indo-European, come from the direct north or come from the west. The potentially Armenian-like DNA component in the Mycenaean genetic results suggests to me that it's possible that the Greco-Armenians came from the north. However, they could also have come from eastern Europe.
    Have there been DNA analysis of Trialeti-Vanadzor specimen?".
    Well. We do have two samples from Kaps in north-western Armenia dated earlier, at approximately 3000 BCE, if they help. They are designated as Kura-Araxes, and they are a male and a female. The male belongs to Y-DNA G2b and mtDNA K3, while the female to mtDNA R1a1. AtDNA shows that they were relatively indigenous and hadn't migrated from the North, belonging to a profile that the respective genetic study, namely "The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus" (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf), terms as "Caucasus cluster", differentiated by the northern profile which is termed as "Steppe cluster". Here is the figure that relates. In figure A you can distinguish between the two autosomal clusters that were initially formed in the Eneolithic (hence the respective sample designations). I also drew a black rectangle which pertains to the aforementioned samples from Kaps. As for the colors in relation to the presented components, we have Anatolian Neolithic (orange), CHG/Iran Neolithic (green), European Hunter-Gatherers - WHG/EHG (blue), and Ancient North Eurasians - ANE (red and light green). There are a few others but they are insignificant components. In figure B you can distinguish the approximate dates of each individual sample by matching the referenced colors (left of the components) shown in figure A, or simply looking parallel to the samples. Take note that the dates refer to BP (Before Present), not BCE.
    Attachment 11529
    The same study also included A
    rmenian samples from other studies, belonging to a number of different regions and ancient periods. For reference of each individual sample please review the following excel file by searching their respective codes, https://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/98916/field_highwire_adjunct_files/4/322347-5.xlsx.
    Attachment 11530
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Attachment 11531

    Consider this as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, genetics says Minoans are 100 % Anatolian and Mycenians 80 % Anatolian and 20 % steppe
    but some elements came from the steppe, like the charriot, and probably also the swords
    even in the tholos thombs, some see some parallels with Catacomb culture
    again, it is dificult, because there may also be some steppe influences in Trialeti
    just like it is suggested Greek and Armenian languages have some things in common
    I don't think that Trialeti-Vanadzor was Greco-Armenian, it was too late. But I do think that they were Proto-Armenian, and still culturally close enough/in contact with their Proto-Greek (Mycenaean) cousins.

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    Interesting results here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Interesting results here.
    What do you mean?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    It is ridiculous that the science still is not able to answer a simple question, where Mycenaeans came from? Anatolia or Carpathian basin?


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    Well, science has already proven that Mycenaeans were largely indigenous to Greece, just like their fellow Minoans. That is to say, they were largely of Neolithic stock. Now, their steppe component is a different matter, and science can only evaluate what data we feed into it. And bearing in mind we are discussing prehistory, it's understandable it might take some time before we come to safe conclusions, academically. At our current stage, evidence (e.g. absence of steppe ancestry in BA Anatolia) suggests a northern route (namely Balkan) for this steppe component, but even this was minimal in terms of their overall ancestry. Last, it's this minimal steppe component we consider as signature of proto-Greek ancestry. Namely, proto-Greeks came in Greece as a minority, which eventually assimilated the pre-Greek populations. By the way, that is true for most of southern Europe likewise. This is evident in the following figure as well, which is taken from the "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5048219/) study. Green represents the so-called "steppe" ancestry, here designated as Yamnaya. This study is in line with the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" as well.


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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Yes! I'm familiar with Fournet's and Bomhard's theory regarding the Hurro-Urartians having separated from IE prior to Anatolian. It's absolutely fascinating and I believe makes a lot of sense. If Pre-Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the South Caucasus (Armenia/northern Iran) originally, and if Kura-Araxes was Hurro-Urartian speaking (which has been suggested by some researchers and which I ascribe to) it wouldn't be a stretch at all for PIE and Hurro-Urartian to have had a common ancestor--they originated in the same geographic region and probably around the same time. I think I said this in a post some months ago, but I think that within the next couple of decades, PIE will be reoriented to Armenia/Iran and may include Hurro-Urartian, Yamnaya will be called something like "Classic Indo-European."".
    Yeah. I also ascribe to what you write above, and i am also a fan of Fournet's and Bomhard's works. Now, that is a whole different discussion, and i have my own share of varying hypotheses, but one pertains to the Dnieper-Donets/Samara cultures and their influence from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture (6000-4000 BCE). The thing is we don't have enough Neolithic and Eneolithic samples from these significant regions. I personally still don't know of any that relates to the Shulaveri-Shomu culture (especially before 5000 BCE), which based on indirect data seems to be the cause for the considerable increase of the CHG autosomal component we see in the Ukrainian (Dnieper-Donets)/Samara Eneolithic samples. I reason that this migration happened at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-PIE (pre-Proto-Indo-European) or a PNC (Proto-North Caucasian) language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well. There is much more to add into all these but they are not related to the topic of this thread.

    You write, "Fascinating story about Apollo and the raven and Khaldi and the raven--which begs the question, was this a Hurro-Urartian story or a Greco-Armenian story?".
    Well, the name could have followed this evolution, Apollo (Greek)<Apaliunas (Trojan)<Apeljōn (Hittite)<Aplu (Hurrian)<Aplu Enlil (Akkadian - Son of Enlil, namely Nergal). As a sidenote, notice that the Etruscan name for Greek God Apollo, was also "Apulu, Aplu". In terms of attributes, they were all solar Gods and related to plague. But i don't think the raven story has anything to do with the origin of the name and even the God's respective attributes. For one, ravens aren't mentioned in any Nergal story that i am aware of. I believe it to be an IE story, and therefore Graeco-Armenian. Ravens were also central in other IE mythologies, like for example Germanic (which includes Norse). Look at "Huginn and Muninn" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn) for example. Odin's pair of ravens. Ravens are also present in Celtic mythology. The aforementioned story could also be Hurro-Urartian in origin, but not much has survived on Hurrian "Aplu" in order to come to any conclusion.

    You write, "I wonder if Ana/Ama, etc are prehistoric words that go back (tens) of thousands of years? According to the prevalent theory, Anahid means something like "without blemish" in Iranian. Again, "an" being a negating prefix like "un". The fact that "ano" meant "high" in Ancient Greek is interesting because the Sumerian god of the sky was "Anu." There is a theory that links Anahid to this word.".
    Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian, because they seem to be absent from Africa. If they were indeed "lallnamen" words, you would expect to find them in Africa as well, but there aren't any based on my knowledge.

    We also have this prefix, indicating "something opposite". It has a number of Greek versions, depending on grammatical rules, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1-#Greek. It comes from PIE *n̥-, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%CC%A5-#Proto-Indo-European. Now, i don't think this has anything to do with the aforementioned etymologies.

    Yeah, i am aware of Sumerian Anu. I believe all these aforementioned etymologies from my previous post are interrelated with Anu as well.

    Along this Eurasian approach, maybe the Ainu/Aynu of Japan are also related to this root. In the Ainu/Aynu language, their name translates as "person or mankind". Also the word for father is "Aca" (certainly related to Ata, etc.), while for mother "Nanna" (certainly related to Anna) and "Hapo".

    You write, "Supposedly Armenian ian/yan originally came from Iranian or PIE. Originally it was -ean, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, -ian means the same thing in English as it does in Armenian. I do think that some Armenian noble names may come from Urartian. Armenian noble names like Yervanduni, Rshtuni, etc. The possessive marker in Armenian is -i (an "ee" sound in English), which may come from Hurro-Urartian (compare with Urartian -hi/-khi/-ni, which are all variations of "belonging to"--the same as Armenian "ian/yan"). I do think that it's possible that Anahid (Ani) is related to "Hanna" via Urartian "Aiaini"/Inuani," which are probably connected to Inanna too. I think Anahid is also connected to Anath.".
    I was unaware of "Aiaini/Inuani" . Yeah, they seem related as well.

    You write, "As for the Mushki, there isn't much about them, but we do know that one of their kings was named Mita, which is an Anatolian IE name and generally regarded as being connected to Greek/Phrygian Midas. One theory about the name Mushki is that the root is "mush" or "mush" and the k is the Classical Armenian plural marker "k'" (for example, Armenians still call Persians "Barsik," which literally means "Parsis" in English). Or maybe it's a dialectical version of Urartian "khi" (although the Urartians called them Mushkini)? "Tribe of Mush" (there is a city near Lake Van called Mush). What very little we know about them points toward them being Indo-European. Their allies were the Urumu (as written in Akkadian cuneiform). This could have been Aramu/Arama (U and A were interchangeable in cuneiform). So perhaps Diakonoff was right after all, but he got the direction wrong--they didn't come from the west but came from the east. Long story short, the circumstantial evidence points to them having been an Indo-European people.".
    Fair points. There was also the Mush dialect in western Armenia (proper), in the city you mention. Is there any peculiarity in their dialect? Probably it isn't spoken any more after the genocide, but do we know of any peculiarity in relation to it? It is also a western Armenian dialect, like the Hamshen dialect you had mentioned in the past.

    You write, "I think that Persian "angaros" makes more sense than Mycenaean "a-ke-ro," especially if "agaros" could be rendered "angalos," however, I think that the idea of Armenian "Angel/Angegh," meaning "invisible"/"supernatural" seems as apt, if not more, than "messenger" (but I've heard this "messenger" theory before). Interesting though how "angaros" does look like a Greek word.".
    Greek "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) also translates as "messenger", hence why i also see it as a cognate of the Persian word. It was later introduced into Judeo-Christian theology in replacement of "מַלְאָךְ" (mal’akh) meaning "messenger - both divine and human", therefore taking a religious role, hence why you can attach a supernatural background to it, but originally it wasn't like that.

    It's like the other Greek word "ἀγγελιαφόρος" (angeliaphóros) which means "the one who bears the message", namely another word for "messenger", or "ἀγγελία" (angelíā) which means "message". I don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this is certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task", and we know that delivering messages was a "task".


    You write, "I don't think that Trialeti-Vanadzor was Greco-Armenian, it was too late. But I do think that they were Proto-Armenian, and still culturally close enough/in contact with their Proto-Greek (Mycenaean) cousins.".
    I want to stress that i don't view Mycenaeans as proro-Greeks, bearing in mind that Mycenaean Greek which is documented to have been spoken from at least 1450 BCE is already fully recognizable Greek, so it must have been Greek for quite a while before. Not to mention that Mycenaean Greek was also dialectal Greek, so its divergence from Proto-Greek must be pushed into the past. Mycenaean Greek was in fact similar to Arcadocypriot Greek (which is considered a direct descendant of the first). I believe Mycenaean divergence from proto-Greek must be dated to the appearance of Minyan ware in the Helladic peninsula, namely 2200-1900 BCE. Therefore proto-Greek would be placed before that horizon.

    If we view Trialeti-Vanadzor as IE, as some scholars have suggested, then it could very well be proto-Armenian. But we run again into the question, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, with proto-Greek speakers entering Greece through the Balkans and proto-Armenians through the Caucasus? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in Transcaucasia? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Balkans?

    If we are to consider Trialeti-Vanadzor proto-Armenian, then the first scenario seems more likely, namely the Pontic-Caspian steppe divergence. That is because Anatolia is absent of any steppe ancestry before the Iron Age, negating the possibility that one or the other moved through Anatolia. But even in that scenario, i believe proto-Greek began its migration towards the Balkans before proto-Armenian began its own towards Transcaucasia. I mean that proto-Greek first left the Pontic-Caspian steppe sometime around 2500 BCE, and then proto-Armenian began its descent around the time of Trialeti-Vanadzor.

    If on the other hand proto-Armenian reached Armenia during the Iron Age, it is almost certain that it must have diverged in the Balkans.

    I personally exclude the southern Anatolian route for proto-Greek, exactly because of this absence in steppe ancestry throughout Anatolia, at least before the Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Yes! I'm familiar with Fournet's and Bomhard's theory regarding the Hurro-Urartians having separated from IE prior to Anatolian. It's absolutely fascinating and I believe makes a lot of sense. If Pre-Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the South Caucasus (Armenia/northern Iran) originally, and if Kura-Araxes was Hurro-Urartian speaking (which has been suggested by some researchers and which I ascribe to) it wouldn't be a stretch at all for PIE and Hurro-Urartian to have had a common ancestor--they originated in the same geographic region and probably around the same time. I think I said this in a post some months ago, but I think that within the next couple of decades, PIE will be reoriented to Armenia/Iran and may include Hurro-Urartian, Yamnaya will be called something like "Classic Indo-European."".
    Yeah. I also ascribe to what you write above, and i am also a fan of Fournet's and Bomhard's works. Now, that is a whole different discussion, and i have my own share of varying hypotheses, but one pertains to the Dnieper-Donets/Samara cultures and their influence from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture (6000-4000 BCE). The thing is we don't have enough Neolithic and Eneolithic samples from these significant regions. I personally still don't know of any that relates to the Shulaveri-Shomu culture (especially before 5000 BCE), which based on indirect data seems to be the cause for the considerable increase of the CHG autosomal component we see in the Ukrainian (Dnieper-Donets)/Samara Eneolithic samples. I reason that this migration happened at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-PIE (pre-Proto-Indo-European) or a PNC (Proto-North Caucasian) language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well. There is much more to add into all these but they are not related to the topic of this thread.

    You write, "Fascinating story about Apollo and the raven and Khaldi and the raven--which begs the question, was this a Hurro-Urartian story or a Greco-Armenian story?".
    Well, the name could have followed this evolution, Apollo (Greek)<Apaliunas (Trojan)<Apeljōn (Hittite)<Aplu (Hurrian)<Aplu Enlil (Akkadian - Son of Enlil, namely Nergal). As a sidenote, notice that the Etruscan name for Greek God Apollo, was also "Apulu, Aplu". In terms of attributes, they were all solar Gods and related to plague. But i don't think the raven story has anything to do with the origin of the name and even the God's respective attributes. For one, ravens aren't mentioned in any Nergal story that i am aware of. I believe it to be an IE story, and therefore Graeco-Armenian. Ravens were also central in other IE mythologies, like for example Germanic (which includes Norse). Look at "Huginn and Muninn" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn) for example. Odin's pair of ravens. Ravens are also present in Celtic mythology. The aforementioned story could also be Hurro-Urartian in origin, but not much has survived on Hurrian "Aplu" in order to come to any conclusion.

    You write, "I wonder if Ana/Ama, etc are prehistoric words that go back (tens) of thousands of years? According to the prevalent theory, Anahid means something like "without blemish" in Iranian. Again, "an" being a negating prefix like "un". The fact that "ano" meant "high" in Ancient Greek is interesting because the Sumerian god of the sky was "Anu." There is a theory that links Anahid to this word.".
    Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian, because they seem to be absent from Africa. If they were indeed "lallnamen" words, you would expect to find them in Africa as well, but there aren't any based on my knowledge.

    We also have this prefix, indicating "something opposite". It has a number of Greek versions, depending on grammatical rules, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1-#Greek. It comes from PIE *n̥-, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%CC%A5-#Proto-Indo-European. Now, i don't think this has anything to do with the aforementioned etymologies.

    Yeah, i am aware of Sumerian Anu. I believe all these aforementioned etymologies from my previous post are interrelated with Anu as well.

    Along this Eurasian approach, maybe the Ainu/Aynu of Japan are also related to this root. In the Ainu/Aynu language, their name translates as "person or mankind". Also the word for father is "Aca" (certainly related to Ata, etc.), while for mother "Nanna" (certainly related to Anna) and "Hapo".

    You write, "Supposedly Armenian ian/yan originally came from Iranian or PIE. Originally it was -ean, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, -ian means the same thing in English as it does in Armenian. I do think that some Armenian noble names may come from Urartian. Armenian noble names like Yervanduni, Rshtuni, etc. The possessive marker in Armenian is -i (an "ee" sound in English), which may come from Hurro-Urartian (compare with Urartian -hi/-khi/-ni, which are all variations of "belonging to"--the same as Armenian "ian/yan"). I do think that it's possible that Anahid (Ani) is related to "Hanna" via Urartian "Aiaini"/Inuani," which are probably connected to Inanna too. I think Anahid is also connected to Anath.".
    I was unaware of "Aiaini/Inuani" . Yeah, they seem related as well.

    You write, "As for the Mushki, there isn't much about them, but we do know that one of their kings was named Mita, which is an Anatolian IE name and generally regarded as being connected to Greek/Phrygian Midas. One theory about the name Mushki is that the root is "mush" or "mush" and the k is the Classical Armenian plural marker "k'" (for example, Armenians still call Persians "Barsik," which literally means "Parsis" in English). Or maybe it's a dialectical version of Urartian "khi" (although the Urartians called them Mushkini)? "Tribe of Mush" (there is a city near Lake Van called Mush). What very little we know about them points toward them being Indo-European. Their allies were the Urumu (as written in Akkadian cuneiform). This could have been Aramu/Arama (U and A were interchangeable in cuneiform). So perhaps Diakonoff was right after all, but he got the direction wrong--they didn't come from the west but came from the east. Long story short, the circumstantial evidence points to them having been an Indo-European people.".
    Fair points. There was also the Mush dialect in western Armenia (proper), in the city you mention. Is there any peculiarity in their dialect? Probably it isn't spoken any more after the genocide, but do we know of any peculiarity in relation to it? It is also a western Armenian dialect, like the Hamshen dialect you had mentioned in the past.

    You write, "I think that Persian "angaros" makes more sense than Mycenaean "a-ke-ro," especially if "agaros" could be rendered "angalos," however, I think that the idea of Armenian "Angel/Angegh," meaning "invisible"/"supernatural" seems as apt, if not more, than "messenger" (but I've heard this "messenger" theory before). Interesting though how "angaros" does look like a Greek word.".
    Greek "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) also translates as "messenger", hence why i also see it as a cognate of the Persian word. It was later introduced into Judeo-Christian theology in replacement of "מַלְאָךְ" (mal’akh) meaning "messenger - both divine and human", therefore taking a religious role, hence why you can attach a supernatural background to it, but originally it wasn't like that.

    It's like the other Greek word "ἀγγελιαφόρος" (angeliaphóros) which means "the one who bears the message", namely another word for "messenger", or "ἀγγελία" (angelíā) which means "message". I don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this is certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task", and we know that delivering messages was a "task".


    You write, "I don't think that Trialeti-Vanadzor was Greco-Armenian, it was too late. But I do think that they were Proto-Armenian, and still culturally close enough/in contact with their Proto-Greek (Mycenaean) cousins.".
    I want to stress that i don't view Mycenaeans as proro-Greeks, bearing in mind that Mycenaean Greek which is documented to have been spoken from at least 1450 BCE is already fully recognizable Greek, so it must have been Greek for quite a while before. Not to mention that Mycenaean Greek was also dialectal Greek, so its divergence from Proto-Greek must be pushed into the past. Mycenaean Greek was in fact similar to Arcadocypriot Greek (which is considered a direct descendant of the first). I believe Mycenaean divergence from proto-Greek must be dated to the appearance of Minyan ware in the Helladic peninsula, namely 2200-1900 BCE. Therefore proto-Greek would be placed before that horizon.

    If we view Trialeti-Vanadzor as IE, as some scholars have suggested, then it could very well be proto-Armenian. But we run again into the question, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, with proto-Greek speakers entering Greece through the Balkans and proto-Armenians through the Caucasus? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in Transcaucasia? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Balkans?

    If we are to consider Trialeti-Vanadzor proto-Armenian, then the first scenario seems more likely, namely the Pontic-Caspian steppe divergence. That is because Anatolia is absent of any steppe ancestry before the Iron Age, negating the possibility that one or the other moved through Anatolia. But even in that scenario, i believe proto-Greek began its migration towards the Balkans before proto-Armenian began its own towards Transcaucasia. I mean that proto-Greek first left the Pontic-Caspian steppe sometime around 2500 BCE, and then proto-Armenian began its descent around the time of Trialeti-Vanadzor.

    If on the other hand proto-Armenian reached Armenia during the Iron Age, it is almost certain that it must have diverged in the Balkans.

    I personally exclude the southern Anatolian route for proto-Greek, exactly because of this absence in steppe ancestry throughout Anatolia, at least before the Iron Age.
    I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.

    I didn't make the connection to Odin's ravens--very interesting!

    "Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian"--my conclusion as well.

    I believe that the Mushki are thought to have/recorded as having settled in the vicinity of Mush. There was (or still is) a Mush dialect of Western Armenian. I guess it's still spoken in parts of northern Armenia and Georgia by the descendants of people from Mush who fled to the Russian Empire during the Genocide. I don't really know enough to get into the mechanics of what makes it unique or how it compares with Hamshen Armenian, however. I'm assuming that they both have a fair amount of Turkish (and Iranian) loans but Hamshen probably has more Turkish influence than Mush dialect, if I had to venture to guess. But I'd imagine that the modern Mush dialect has been influenced by Yerevan Armenian and Russian too. Here's some comparisons between various Armenian dialects, including Mush dialect and Hamshetsi: https://www.academia.edu/38064007/Th..._6_2018_46-105

    Mush dialect is used in a lot of folk songs, but the Polis (Constantinople/Istanbul) dialect is considered the standard Western Armenian dialect.

    I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east since nobody thinks that Indo-Iranians were in the Balkans or South Caucasus prior to being in Central Asia-->South Asia. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.

    Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?

    So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.

    Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 06-11-19 at 06:38.

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.".
    Personally i don't view them as related. The "Apishlu" you refer to is actually the exonym version recorded by Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser I in the 12th century BCE, to render one of the Kaskian tribal names, "Abešla". Supposedly, this Kaskian tribal name is a cognate with the Abkhazian endonym "Aṕswaа", but personally i am not so certain of this.


    Kaskian has been speculated to belong to both Kartvelian and Hattian. I will agree with Itamar Singer (RIP) that it was more likely related to Hattic. Some others speculate that Kaskians were simply displaced Hattians from central Anatolia who sough
    t refuge in the mountains and lived a life of anarchy there. That could be the reason why they never gave up fighting the Hittites and were possibly one of the reasons of the Hittite Empire's fall.

    By the way, the more correct version of the name, namely "Kaška" (as is in Hittite records), brings to mind the legendary forefather of the Vainakhs (Chechen and Ingush), "Kaukas/Kavkas" (
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucas). Which by the way, is where the word "Caucasus" derives from.

    All these also bring to mind the ancient Cretan word of aforementioned "χαλκός" (khalkós) meaning "copper", which is "καυχός" (kaukhós). And we do know that the root "khal-/chal-" is related with the metallurgical people "Khaldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes" we were discussing. To me the roots of Khaldi, Kaška, and Kaukas all seem etymologically related.


    You write, "
    I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.".
    This view is somewhat along the lines of the "Graeco-Aryan" or "Graeco-Armeno-Aryan" hypothesis, which proposes a common ancestor for the Greek, Armenian, and Indo-Iranian languages, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan. I am personally keeping an open mind about all possibilities since further research is required. In the end, these are still very hypothetical views. But i want to stress that i am personally more in favor of the "Graeco-Armenian" hypothesis, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian. In any case, it has been suggested that the eastern successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Poltavka culture", was proto-Indo-Iranian. While the western successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Catacomb culture", has been suggested as the origin of the proto-Greeks among other groups.

    Along these lines, there was recently an article by Eurogenes (Davidski) which could corroborate for an early steppe (Catacomb culture) migration towards T
    ranscaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/catacomb-armeniamlba.html.

    As for your last point on steppe IE intrusion of Assyrian territory. Well Mitanni were known to have had an IE ruling class (evidently Indo-Aryan), therefore they surely were present in the region during the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE. The same has also been suggested for the second wave of the Hyksos in Egypt. While the majority of the Hyksos is thought to have been Semitic, the Hyksos are usually believed to have contained Indo-Europeans and Hurrians as well. There were two Hyksos waves into Egypt. The first was certainly Semitic and entered at around 1800 BCE. The second wave at around 1650 BCE which gave rise to the 15th Dynasty under "Salitis" is thought to have been more mixed.


    You write, "
    Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?".
    I had totally forgotten about this Kalavan male sample. He is included in the excel file i shared a couple of posts ago. He belongs to Y-DNA R1b1a1 and mtDNA X2f. But R1b1a1 cannot be considered proto-Armenian, it's too much of an early line, namely Neolithic.

    The dates in relation to the legendary conflict between Hayk and Bel are interesting nonetheless. Both 2492 BCE (Armenian traditional chronology) and 2107 BCE (Mikael Chamchian).


    You write, "
    So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.".
    Yeah, i like this hypothesis as well.

    You write, "
    Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).".
    Bomhard has a different view though in terms of PIE. He has come up with the "Caucasian Substrate hypothesis", which deals with the following statement of his, "Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language — to use Greenberg’s term — on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages.". By the way, even David Anthony cautiously supports his views. Here is his updated paper (2019), https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335676918_The_Origins_of_Proto-Indo-European_The_Caucasian_Substrate_Hypothesis_JIES_V olume_47_Number_1_2_SpringSummer_2019_pre-print. An older version (2015) which is on Academia is outdated.

    As for Proto-Kartvelian, it is placed around northeastern Anatolia and western Transcaucasia, which is more or less where its descendants are spoken today. Probably something like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.".
    Personally i don't view them as related. The "Apishlu" you refer to is actually the exonym version recorded by Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser I in the 12th century BCE, to render one of the Kaskian tribal names, "Abešla". Supposedly, this Kaskian tribal name is a cognate with the Abkhazian endonym "Aṕswaа", but personally i am not so certain of this.


    Kaskian has been speculated to belong to both Kartvelian and Hattian. I will agree with Itamar Singer (RIP) that it was more likely related to Hattic. Some others speculate that Kaskians were simply displaced Hattians from central Anatolia who sough
    t refuge in the mountains and lived a life of anarchy there. That could be the reason why they never gave up fighting the Hittites and were possibly one of the reasons of the Hittite Empire's fall.

    By the way, the more correct version of the name, namely "Kaška" (as is in Hittite records), brings to mind the legendary forefather of the Vainakhs (Chechen and Ingush), "Kaukas/Kavkas" (
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucas). Which by the way, is where the word "Caucasus" derives from.

    All these also bring to mind the ancient Cretan word of aforementioned "χαλκός" (khalkós) meaning "copper", which is "καυχός" (kaukhós). And we do know that the root "khal-/chal-" is related with the metallurgical people "Khaldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes" we were discussing. To me the roots of Khaldi, Kaška, and Kaukas all seem etymologically related.


    You write, "
    I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.".
    This view is somewhat along the lines of the "Graeco-Aryan" or "Graeco-Armeno-Aryan" hypothesis, which proposes a common ancestor for the Greek, Armenian, and Indo-Iranian languages, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan. I am personally keeping an open mind about all possibilities since further research is required. In the end, these are still very hypothetical views. But i want to stress that i am personally more in favor of the "Graeco-Armenian" hypothesis, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian. In any case, it has been suggested that the eastern successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Poltavka culture", was proto-Indo-Iranian. While the western successor of the "Yamnaya culture", namely the "Catacomb culture", has been suggested as the origin of the proto-Greeks among other groups.

    Along these lines, there was recently an article by Eurogenes (Davidski) which could corroborate for an early steppe (Catacomb culture) migration towards T
    ranscaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/catacomb-armeniamlba.html.

    As for your last point on steppe IE intrusion of Assyrian territory. Well Mitanni were known to have had an IE ruling class (evidently Indo-Aryan), therefore they surely were present in the region during the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE. The same has also been suggested for the second wave of the Hyksos in Egypt. While the majority of the Hyksos is thought to have been Semitic, the Hyksos are usually believed to have contained Indo-Europeans and Hurrians as well. There were two Hyksos waves into Egypt. The first was certainly Semitic and entered at around 1800 BCE. The second wave at around 1650 BCE which gave rise to the 15th Dynasty under "Salitis" is thought to have been more mixed.


    You write, "
    Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?".
    I had totally forgotten about this Kalavan male sample. He is included in the excel file i shared a couple of posts ago. He belongs to Y-DNA R1b1a1 and mtDNA X2f. But R1b1a1 cannot be considered proto-Armenian, it's too much of an early line, namely Neolithic.

    The dates in relation to the legendary conflict between Hayk and Bel are interesting nonetheless. Both 2492 BCE (Armenian traditional chronology) and 2107 BCE (Mikael Chamchian).


    You write, "
    So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.".
    Yeah, i like this hypothesis as well.

    You write, "
    Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).".
    Bomhard has a different view though in terms of PIE. He has come up with the "Caucasian Substrate hypothesis", which deals with the following statement of his, "Evidence will be presented to demonstrate that Proto-Indo-European is the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language — to use Greenberg’s term — on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages.". By the way, even David Anthony cautiously supports his views. Here is his updated paper (2019), https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335676918_The_Origins_of_Proto-Indo-European_The_Caucasian_Substrate_Hypothesis_JIES_V olume_47_Number_1_2_SpringSummer_2019_pre-print. An older version (2015) which is on Academia is outdated.

    As for Proto-Kartvelian, it is placed around northeastern Anatolia and western Transcaucasia, which is more or less where its descendants are spoken today. Probably something like this.
    Ah yes, Abesla! I remember that now! Thanks. Yes, I agree, the comparison with Abkhazian is kind of weak.

    The Mitanni emerged around 1500 BCE. The same with whoever the potential Kassite Indo-Iranian/Indic contacts were. And as you mentioned, the second Hyksos wave was around the same time. The early (apparently Steppe) Indo-European presence in Armenia was around 2300 BCE (see Verin and Nerkin Naver, etc). So 800 years before the emergence of Indo-Iranians/Indics in the Middle East. Plus, as far as we know, the Mitanni, etc. were not in the Aragats and Sevan regions. So if these 3rd millennium sites in Armenia were indeed Indo-European as many researchers have suggested, it's likely that they were not made by Indo-Iranians. The two best options are Armenians or Anatolian IEs. If Anatolians IEs were not Steppe-derived, and these Armenian specimens/horses were Steppe-derived, it is suggestive that they were probably Armenian-speakers, unless there was another Indo-European language present in Armenia that died out unbeknownst to us (the Mushki? Somebody else?) Since these locations play a role in Armenian mythology and the burial practices are consistent with legendary Armenian burial rites, it points to them probably being Armenians. This is a big reason why I think Armenians came straight down from the Steppes as opposed to a more circuitous western route.

    I don't necessarily believe this, and I know that there are alternate, and probably better explanations, but there is a theory connecting the Hyksos to the Hayk'. However, its generally agreed that they were a blend of Hurrian and Indo-Europeans of uncertain origins, so maybe it's not that outside the realm of possibility. You mentioned Salitis, the Hyksos ruler, has been compared to Zaluti, the Umman Manda ruler. The Umman Manda homeland is generally placed in Armenia, although their cultural/linguistic affiliation is usually identified as Indo-Iranian or Hurrian.

    As for that DNA sample, northern Armenia is where Hrachya Martirosyan places the earliest Proto-Armenian presence in Armenia--basically from Mt. Ararat to Lake Sevan. Kalavan is located on Lake Sevan.

    Thanks for the Anthony article, I am looking forward to reading it!

    One last thing--the name Kartlos (from which the Kartvelians apparently take their name) seems to fit in well with your iron/metal theory as well.

    As for Greek connections, the surviving Hayasan kings' names--Hakkani/Hukkana, Karanni/Lanni, Mariyas, Anniyas and some of the Urartians kings' names--Argisti, Menua(s)--could have Greek analogs. Karanni has been compared to Karanos. Argisti to Argus+di. Menua(s) I believe to Minas. Obviously Mita to Midas. Mushegh to Mursilos. Some of these seem to have had Hittite or Luwian origins and that were loaned to Armenian and Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Speaking of the Black Sea, there is an ancient, pagan Armenian legend that survived into the Christian-era (I think maybe mentioned by Moses of Khorene) about Tork Angegh, who was a (possibly physically hideous and/or blind) hero. The surviving tale of Tork Angegh involves him hurling massive boulders from shore at invading enemy ships in the Black Sea. Presumably this is a legendary account of a real historical battle. This could support the Hayasa theory. But I wonder if these invaders were Greek seafarers en route to Georgia, perhaps?

    Incidentally, the name "angegh" seems to mean "unseen" literally, but perhaps we would use the word "invisible" today. I think in this context it was used to mean something like "supernatural." "An" is a negating denotation, related to "un" in English. "Gegh" comes from PIE "wel." So at one time "angegh" was "angel" in Proto or Pre-Classical Armenian. The Greek word "angelos" is believed to have been loaned into Greek from another language. Personally, I believe that it came from Armenian.

    To me, this is supportive of further, very ancient, contacts between Armenians and Greeks.
    I think you do not know what you say,

    can you tell us what is an angel?
    what means the word angel?
    and why not Greek?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  20. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I think you do not know what you say,

    can you tell us what is an angel?
    what means the word angel?
    and why not Greek?
    An angel is a religious, spiritual being. Spiritual beings are often invisible.

    The Greek word "angelos" is considered to be a loan into Greek from another, eastern language. https://www.etymonline.com/word/angel

    Demitrios' Iranian etymology suffices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I think you do not know what you say,

    can you tell us what is an angel?
    what means the word angel?
    and why not Greek?
    I haven’t seen you being active lately, what happened?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    The Mitanni emerged around 1500 BCE. The same with whoever the potential Kassite Indo-Iranian/Indic contacts were. And as you mentioned, the second Hyksos wave was around the same time. The early (apparently Steppe) Indo-European presence in Armenia was around 2300 BCE (see Verin and Nerkin Naver, etc). So 800 years before the emergence of Indo-Iranians/Indics in the Middle East. Plus, as far as we know, the Mitanni, etc. were not in the Aragats and Sevan regions. So if these 3rd millennium sites in Armenia were indeed Indo-European as many researchers have suggested, it's likely that they were not made by Indo-Iranians. The two best options are Armenians or Anatolian IEs. If Anatolians IEs were not Steppe-derived, and these Armenian specimens/horses were Steppe-derived, it is suggestive that they were probably Armenian-speakers, unless there was another Indo-European language present in Armenia that died out unbeknownst to us (the Mushki? Somebody else?) Since these locations play a role in Armenian mythology and the burial practices are consistent with legendary Armenian burial rites, it points to them probably being Armenians. This is a big reason why I think Armenians came straight down from the Steppes as opposed to a more circuitous western route.".
    The Necropolises of Nerkin and Verin Naver are indeed very interesting. They complement the Hayk/Bel dates as well. I haven't looked much into those but i will when i find some time. In addition to the previous article by Eurogenes that i shared, here is another where he writes of Chalcolithic steppe migrations into Transcaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/11/steppe-ancestry-in-chalcolithic.html. Namely before the aforementioned Necropolises, but it goes on to show that steppe migration into Transcaucasia was early and could have been periodic in frequency.

    You write, "I don't necessarily believe this, and I know that there are alternate, and probably better explanations, but there is a theory connecting the Hyksos to the Hayk'. However, its generally agreed that they were a blend of Hurrian and Indo-Europeans of uncertain origins, so maybe it's not that outside the realm of possibility. You mentioned Salitis, the Hyksos ruler, has been compared to Zaluti, the Umman Manda ruler. The Umman Manda homeland is generally placed in Armenia, although their cultural/linguistic affiliation is usually identified as Indo-Iranian or Hurrian.".
    The bulk of the Hyksos population was most certainly Semitic. It is the upper classes that appear more mixed, specifically in relation to the second wave. There was a segment of either a paper or a book i had read many months ago that gave etymologies on the Hyksos names, but i cannot find it. Nonetheless i do like the Salitis/Zaluti relation. But, the Hyksos IE names as well as the Umman Manda have been mostly associated with Indo-Aryan peoples. Especially the Umman Manda, i have seen them related to the Medes. "Umman Manda" in Akkadian means "troops of Manda". Furthermore, the more precise name of the Medes, namely "Māda/Mādai", could be related to "Manda".

    You write, "Thanks for the Anthony article, I am looking forward to reading it!".
    It's actually Allan Bomhard's paper. David Anthony, namely the author of the famous book "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" simply commented on it. You may read Bomhard's response to the comments here, https://www.academia.edu/39993204/Response_to_the_Comments_JIES_Volume_47_Number_1_a nd_2_Spring_Summer_2019_pre-print_. It was published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies (Volume 47 - 2019). In addition to David Anthony, John Colarusso and Frederik Kortlandt were even more supportive. Of course i personally have a somewhat more varying hypothesis on PIE, which is nonetheless related to Bomhard's and Fournet's views.

    You write, "One last thing--the name Kartlos (from which the Kartvelians apparently take their name) seems to fit in well with your iron/metal theory as well.".
    Yeah, it could be related. Read this "Etymology" segment as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartli#Etymology.

    You write, "
    As for Greek connections, the surviving Hayasan kings' names--Hakkani/Hukkana, Karanni/Lanni, Mariyas, Anniyas and some of the Urartians kings' names--Argisti, Menua(s)--could have Greek analogs. Karanni has been compared to Karanos. Argisti to Argus+di. Menua(s) I believe to Minas. Obviously Mita to Midas. Mushegh to Mursilos. Some of these seem to have had Hittite or Luwian origins and that were loaned to Armenian and Greek.".
    Certainly, there are relations. But i wouldn't give credit to Hittite and/or Luwian for all of these. Some could indeed be Graeco-Armenian while others Hurrian.

  23. #1648
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    An angel is a religious, spiritual being. Spiritual beings are often invisible.

    The Greek word "angelos" is considered to be a loan into Greek from another, eastern language. https://www.etymonline.com/word/angel

    Demitrios' Iranian etymology suffices.

    Angel is from Greek
    Αγγελος virb Aγγελω
    and means messenger



    Angel is the messenger
    either by God, either by governor, either by what ever

    But Angel is messenger that brings Good News.

    there are 3 kind of messenger
    the one who brings good news is Αγγελος Αγγελειν Αγγελιαν (messenger pronouncing good news)
    the one who brings a message of order, of justice etc is Μηνυτης from μηνυω
    and the who brings governors voice is Κηρυκας


    So
    Angel from pure Greek Αγγελος = God's messenger
    God's messages are always good,

    Notice

    Ω ξειν, αγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι






    IT IS PURE GREEK

    Notice

    Euaggelion = eu+aggelia = Good News
    Eu-
    angel-ist = the 4 writers of Gospel books at New Testament, from Ευαγγελιστης -Euangelistis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
    Last edited by Yetos; 08-11-19 at 03:19.

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    ..........
    Last edited by Demetrios; 08-11-19 at 09:03.

  25. #1650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    There is no reason to be offensive mate. His comments/views aren't expressed in a negative way.
    you are right,
    I think I repair it,

    plz erase the quote.

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