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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Angel is from Greek
    Αγγελος virb Aγγελω
    and means messenger



    Angel is the messenger
    either by God, either by governor, either by what ever

    But Angel is messenger that brings Good News.

    there are 3 kind of messenger
    the one who brings good news is Αγγελος Αγγελειν Αγγελιαν (messenger pronouncing good news)
    the one who brings a message of order, of justice etc is Μηνυτης from μηνυω
    and the who brings governors voice is Κηρυκας


    So
    Angel from pure Greek Αγγελος = God's messenger
    God's messages are always good,

    Notice

    Ω ξειν, αγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι






    IT IS PURE GREEK

    Notice

    Euaggelion = eu+aggelia = Good News
    Eu-
    angel-ist = the 4 writers of Gospel books at New Testament, from Ευαγγελιστης -Euangelistis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
    According to Demetrios, it's either Mycenaean or Iranian. The link I provided suggested that it was a loan. If it's a loan, it's not "pure Greek." If it's an Iranian loan, it may only have been present in Greek for 3000 years. If it's an Armenian loan (and maybe not even a loan, but a Greco-Armenian word), it could have a lot earlier presence in Greek.

    I think Demitrios' Iranian etymology makes a lot of sense, but I don't think that my theory regarding Armenian "angegh" is completely ridiculous either. You're thinking about this term through a Christian lens, and maybe that's not exactly the right way to view them.

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    "The Necropolises of Nerkin and Verin Naver are indeed very interesting. They complement the Hayk/Bel dates as well. I haven't looked much into those but i will when i find some time. In addition to the previous article by Eurogenes that i shared, here is another where he writes of Chalcolithic steppe migrations into Transcaucasia, http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/11/steppe-ancestry-in-chalcolithic.html. Namely before the aforementioned Necropolises, but it goes on to show that steppe migration into Transcaucasia was early and could have been periodic in frequency."

    Which is exactly why I thought it was possible that there were colonies established in southern Turkey/northern Syria, such as Armani. I'm still curious too who made the Alaca Tombs if not Hittites.

    "The bulk of the Hyksos population was most certainly Semitic. It is the upper classes that appear more mixed, specifically in relation to the second wave. There was a segment of either a paper or a book i had read many months ago that gave etymologies on the Hyksos names, but i cannot find it. Nonetheless i do like the Salitis/Zaluti relation. But, the Hyksos IE names as well as the Umman Manda have been mostly associated with Indo-Aryan peoples. Especially the Umman Manda, i have seen them related to the Medes. "Umman Manda" in Akkadian means "troops of Manda". Furthermore, the more precise name of the Medes, namely "Māda/Mādai", could be related to "Manda".

    We are in agreement here. I think the proposed etymology was Egyptian?

    "It's actually Allan Bomhard's paper. David Anthony, namely the author of the famous book "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" simply commented on it. You may read Bomhard's response to the comments here, https://www.academia.edu/39993204/Response_to_the_Comments_JIES_Volume_47_Number_1_a nd_2_Spring_Summer_2019_pre-print_. It was published in the Journal of Indo-European Studies (Volume 47 - 2019). In addition to David Anthony, John Colarusso and Frederik Kortlandt were even more supportive. Of course i personally have a somewhat more varying hypothesis on PIE, which is nonetheless related to Bomhard's and Fournet's views."

    Ah. I see. What do you mean that you have more varying hypothesis on PIE?

    "Yeah, it could be related. Read this "Etymology" segment as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartli#Etymology."

    Thanks. I wonder, then, if Kartvelian is just a really early IE language branch?

    "Certainly, there are relations. But i wouldn't give credit to Hittite and/or Luwian for all of these. Some could indeed be Graeco-Armenian while others Hurrian."


    Very good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    According to Demetrios, it's either Mycenaean or Iranian. The link I provided suggested that it was a loan. If it's a loan, it's not "pure Greek." If it's an Iranian loan, it may only have been present in Greek for 3000 years. If it's an Armenian loan (and maybe not even a loan, but a Greco-Armenian word), it could have a lot earlier presence in Greek.

    I think Demitrios' Iranian etymology makes a lot of sense, but I don't think that my theory regarding Armenian "angegh" is completely ridiculous either. You're thinking about this term through a Christian lens, and maybe that's not exactly the right way to view them.

    Ok

    Lesson No 1 in Linguistics,

    A loan keeps its Sounds, and does not change,

    example,

    Greek Aggelos becomes Angel
    Greek Euaggelistis becomes Evagelist
    Greek Basiliki becomes Basilica
    as
    Iranian qurabiye becomes κουραμπιες
    word corvette, enter as Loan κορβεττα,
    etc

    SO the possibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek
    by Armenian angegh IS TOTTALY A FANTASY, AND ABSOLUTELY WRONG
    cause then it would be Aggeghos Αγγεγχος

    notice,
    the word computer is the today international term,
    if translated in Greek is υπολογιστης
    BUT if used as loan its κομπιουτερ

    So the posibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek is absolutely Wrong
    Theories out of laws, are wrong,

    The word Aggelos is pure Greek
    and possible IE origin
    and it might/possible be connected with
    Germanic Gale
    Slavic Slovo

    except if you can prove that a phthongue, a sound of PIE turns to 'gh in Armenian and 'l to Greek



    plz Notice
    English House -> Housekeeping / house holdings
    Greek Οικος -> οικονομια (economia)
    but as loan in English is economy
    LOANS KEEP THE ORIGINAL SOUNDS
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Which is exactly why I thought it was possible that there were colonies established in southern Turkey/northern Syria, such as Armani. I'm still curious too who made the Alaca Tombs if not Hittites.".
    Yeah, the Alaca Höyük tombs are very obscure in terms of who made them. But i do believe they were IE. Identity-wise there have been multiple proposals. Are you aware of any genetic publications in relation to them?

    You write, "
    We are in agreement here. I think the proposed etymology was Egyptian?".
    Yes, the name "ὑκσώς" (hyksṓs) is the Greek rendering of Egyptian "ḥqꜣ-ḫꜣst" (heqa-khaset), meaning "rulers of foreign lands". But i wasn't referring to this etymology, but rather the individual names of their Kings. Unfortunately i cannot find it in order to share it.

    You write, "
    Ah. I see. What do you mean that you have more varying hypothesis on PIE?".
    First of all, i suspect two independent Caucasian events to have taken place.

    The first, to have been from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture, at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-Proto-Indo-European or a Proto-North-Caucasian language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well.


    Second, i see a following Transcaucasian migration which settled in the northwest Caucasus, at approximately 4500-4000 BCE, which i term "pre-Maykop". This "pre-Maykop" migration is archaeologically corroborated by a number of raised fortresses which were evidently introduced from Transcaucasia. I am certain this second migration is what gave rise to the Proto-Northwest-Caucasian languages as well as played its part in the formation of PIE, where we would later see the formation of the proper Maykop culture, beginning at approximately 3900 BCE. Therefore per my view, PIE was formed in the broader Maykop region (not necessarily culture) when Khvalynsk's pre-PIE and pre-Maykop's PNWC met, between 4500-3900 BCE.


    On the other hand, if the first migratory event brought a PNC language to Khvalynsk, instead of a pre-PIE language, then PIE most likely formed in Khvalynsk, and was only later affected by PNWC through interaction at the steppe Maykop outliers. Nonetheless both of the above migratory events evidently happened.


    I do have corroborating evidence for the above, but i am not trying to expand. In any case, i am open-minded to all scenarios and not dogmatic about what i write.


    You write, "
    Thanks. I wonder, then, if Kartvelian is just a really early IE language branch?".
    Kartvelian is an independent language family, nonetheless it is widely thought that Proto-Kartvelian interacted with Indo-European at a relatively early date. Along the same lines, i do find interesting the medieval Georgian legend of hailing from a place called "Aryan-Kartli" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Kartli).

    ************************************************** ************************************************** **********************

    PostScript: In regards to "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) i had written that i don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this was certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task" in Greek, a
    nd we know that delivering messages was a "task". Furthermore, the Greeks knew of the Persian institution known as "ἀγγαρήιον" (angareion) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angarium). Herodotus had written about it at approximately 440 BCE, but again this was way after the first appearance of the Greek word "ἄγγελος" (ángelos). Last, the the subjugation of Ionia by the Persians and the Ionian Revolt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Anatolia#The_subjugation_of_Ionia_and_th e_Ionian_Revolt_(500%E2%80%93493_BC)) happened at approximately 500 BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    you are right,
    I think I repair it,

    plz erase the quote.
    I tried deleting my comment but i don't see any button that relates, therefore i simply edited it by leaving some dots. I don't think deleting comments is possible for non-admins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ok

    Lesson No 1 in Linguistics,

    A loan keeps its Sounds, and does not change,

    example,

    Greek Aggelos becomes Angel
    Greek Euaggelistis becomes Evagelist
    Greek Basiliki becomes Basilica
    ...
    LOANS KEEP THE ORIGINAL SOUNDS
    Well this is an exaggeration. Here is an example:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kirche

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Well this is an exaggeration. Here is an example:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kirche

    Indeed, you have just proved how correct is linguistic law,
    with your example, instead of breaking down the law

    Κυριακον -Kiriak(on) -> Kir(ia)k -> Kirk -> Kirk-(he)
    possibly due to Latin alphabet and preach the K turn to C,
    typical among Latin and Greek, the C-K change
    example
    βασιλικ(η) basilic(a)


    as you see the sounds remain the same.

    Kiriak(on) Kirk(he)

    SO LOANS DO KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUNDS

    Kiriak-on -> Kirk-he -> Kirc-he (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
    Basilik-e -> Basilic-a (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
    here both Greek K and Latin C have same sound

    oposite version example
    Latin compono->compositus,
    English composite, compost,
    Greek komposta

    LOANS KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUND

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    Indeed, you have just proved how correct is linguistic law,
    with your example, instead of breaking down the law

    Κυριακον -Kiriak(on) -> Kir(ia)k -> Kirk -> Kirk-(he)
    possibly due to Latin alphabet and preach the K turn to C,
    typical among Latin and Greek, the C-K change
    example
    βασιλικ(η) basilic(a)


    as you see the sounds remain the same.

    Kiriak(on) Kirk(he)

    SO LOANS DO KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUNDS

    Kiriak-on -> Kirk-he -> Kirc-he (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
    Basilik-e -> Basilic-a (due to latin alphabet-grammar)
    here both Greek K and Latin C have same sound

    oposite version example
    Latin compono->compositus,
    English composite, compost,
    Greek komposta

    LOANS KEEP THEIR ORIGINAL SOUND
    the ch in kirche is not pronounced as kh but as ch, deeper in the throat. in swiss german you have chilchä, or chilä. so there is quite a lot missing from the original word an k is ch, r is l.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ok

    Lesson No 1 in Linguistics,

    A loan keeps its Sounds, and does not change,

    example,

    Greek Aggelos becomes Angel
    Greek Euaggelistis becomes Evagelist
    Greek Basiliki becomes Basilica
    as
    Iranian qurabiye becomes κουραμπιες
    word corvette, enter as Loan κορβεττα,
    etc

    SO the possibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek
    by Armenian angegh IS TOTTALY A FANTASY, AND ABSOLUTELY WRONG
    cause then it would be Aggeghos Αγγεγχος

    notice,
    the word computer is the today international term,
    if translated in Greek is υπολογιστης
    BUT if used as loan its κομπιουτερ

    So the posibility the word Aggelos to be a loan in Greek is absolutely Wrong
    Theories out of laws, are wrong,

    The word Aggelos is pure Greek
    and possible IE origin
    and it might/possible be connected with
    Germanic Gale
    Slavic Slovo

    except if you can prove that a phthongue, a sound of PIE turns to 'gh in Armenian and 'l to Greek



    plz Notice
    English House -> Housekeeping / house holdings
    Greek Οικος -> οικονομια (economia)
    but as loan in English is economy
    LOANS KEEP THE ORIGINAL SOUNDS
    I did not realize that the Greek word was aggelos originally. The reconstructed original Armenian word I was talking about was not angegh but angel, from PIE *wel. I already linked this https://www.etymonline.com/word/angel, which states " from Greek angelos, literally "messenger, envoy, one that announces," in the New Testament "divine messenger," which is possibly related to angaros "mounted courier," both from an unknown Oriental word (Watkins compares Sanskrit ajira- "swift;" Klein suggests Semitic sources)."

    You're right, the Gh in Armenian=L in Greek, but I believe that this must be a Classical or post-Classical phenomenon. Regardless, that sound change is exactly my point.

    Personally, I don't know what you're so offended by. I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point, I a) never said that I was right and b) also conceded that Demitros' suggestions were better.

    The conversation was about pre-Classical Armenian and Greek connections.

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    "Yeah, the Alaca Höyük tombs are very obscure in terms of who made them. But i do believe they were IE. Identity-wise there have been multiple proposals. Are you aware of any genetic publications in relation to them?"

    Yes. It seems that the consensus is that the people who made the Alaca tombs were Indo-European but I know that some top Hittitologists (or at least Macqueen) doubted that they were created by an Anatolian IE culture such as the Hittites. I used to wonder if maybe they were pre-Mycenaean Greeks, but you (who are much more knowledgable about Greek history than I am) have compelling theories that the Greeks came from the north of Greece and not east (the builders of Alaca seem to have come from the Caucasus/Pontus). I wonder if they were Phrygians?

    No, I haven't seen any genetic studies about the inhabitants.



    Yes, the name "ὑκσώς" (hyksṓs) is the Greek rendering of Egyptian "ḥqꜣ-ḫꜣst" (heqa-khaset), meaning "rulers of foreign lands". But i wasn't referring to this etymology, but rather the individual names of their Kings. Unfortunately i cannot find it in order to share it.

    Zaluti seems Hurrian to me. I'd be interested in seeing a list of their kings/etymologies if you do stumble upon them again at some time.


    First of all, i suspect two independent Caucasian events to have taken place.

    The first, to have been from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture, at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-Proto-Indo-European or a Proto-North-Caucasian language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well.


    Second, i see a following Transcaucasian migration which settled in the northwest Caucasus, at approximately 4500-4000 BCE, which i term "pre-Maykop". This "pre-Maykop" migration is archaeologically corroborated by a number of raised fortresses which were evidently introduced from Transcaucasia. I am certain this second migration is what gave rise to the Proto-Northwest-Caucasian languages as well as played its part in the formation of PIE, where we would later see the formation of the proper Maykop culture, beginning at approximately 3900 BCE. Therefore per my view, PIE was formed in the broader Maykop region (not necessarily culture) when Khvalynsk's pre-PIE and pre-Maykop's PNWC met, between 4500-3900 BCE.


    On the other hand, if the first migratory event brought a PNC language to Khvalynsk, instead of a pre-PIE language, then PIE most likely formed in Khvalynsk, and was only later affected by PNWC through interaction at the steppe Maykop outliers. Nonetheless both of the above migratory events evidently happened.


    I do have corroborating evidence for the above, but i am not trying to expand. In any case, i am open-minded to all scenarios and not dogmatic about what i write.


    Fascinating.


    Kartvelian is an independent language family, nonetheless it is widely thought that Proto-Kartvelian interacted with Indo-European at a relatively early date. Along the same lines, i do find interesting the medieval Georgian legend of hailing from a place called "Aryan-Kartli" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Kartli).

    Yes. They definitely (long) have influences from Greek, Iranian, and Armenian though. What I meant was, I wonder if they split off from the main body of PIE early, like Fournet/Bomhard suggest Hurro-Urartian did.


    PostScript: In regards to "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) i had written that i don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this was certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task" in Greek, and we know that delivering messages was a "task". Furthermore, the Greeks knew of the Persian institution known as "ἀγγαρήιον" (angareion) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angarium). Herodotus had written about it at approximately 440 BCE, but again this was way after the first appearance of the Greek word "ἄγγελος" (ángelos). Last, the the subjugation of Ionia by the Persians and the Ionian Revolt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Anatolia#The_subjugation_of_Ionia_and_th e_Ionian_Revolt_(500%E2%80%93493_BC)) happened at approximately 500 BCE.

    All very interesting. Thank you. What does "
    ἀγγελίη" mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    the ch in kirche is not pronounced as kh but as ch, deeper in the throat. in swiss german you have chilchä, or chilä. so there is quite a lot missing from the original word an k is ch, r is l.
    plz do not play kids games.

    Yes but the proto form sound in Germanic is Kirk
    compare Dutch Kerk

    2 forms
    Kirk in Germanic
    but due to Latin alhabet has also the form Cirica ->Ciric-ha -> Chiric-ha ->Church
    while in Dutch kept the K Kirica

    the modern sound of C is after



    Proto-Germanic sound of Kirch church etc is KIRIKO

    so Κυριακον (του Κυριου, Lords place/house) enters protogermanic as Kiriko sound but as Cirico written in Latin alphabet and remains as Kirk Kerk to some, or Cirica ->Chiricha Chirihha etc to other dialects,

    the K or C or Ch
    It has to do mainly with timing era of each German dialect got the loan, their own writting, and the time they change to chistianity and by who,



    an example simmilar to Kirche
    Greeκ Ελλας Latin Grecia
    from Latin Grecia enters Germanic languages
    but
    English Gree-c-e but Gree-k
    Deutsch Grie-ch-enland (ch=kh=h ?)
    Danish Grea-k-enland
    Dutch Grie-k-enland

    Notice the laryngeal aspirations (k g h γ kh) is probably after medieval languages.
    compare Roman Latin Grecia (Grekia) with Italian Grecia (Gretsia), and you realize the change of C sound timing.
    Last edited by Yetos; 09-11-19 at 05:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    I did not realize that the Greek word was aggelos originally. The reconstructed original Armenian word I was talking about was not angegh but angel, from PIE *wel. I already linked this https://www.etymonline.com/word/angel, which states " from Greek angelos, literally "messenger, envoy, one that announces," in the New Testament "divine messenger," which is possibly related to angaros "mounted courier," both from an unknown Oriental word (Watkins compares Sanskrit ajira- "swift;" Klein suggests Semitic sources)."

    You're right, the Gh in Armenian=L in Greek, but I believe that this must be a Classical or post-Classical phenomenon. Regardless, that sound change is exactly my point.

    Personally, I don't know what you're so offended by. I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point, I a) never said that I was right and b) also conceded that Demitros' suggestions were better.

    The conversation was about pre-Classical Armenian and Greek connections.
    No personal feelings,
    just happened.

    the word is older in Greek centuries before New testament.

    the Armenian Angegh is connected with Greek agos Aγος and/or Αγιος (with psilosis), not with Aggelos
    which cognates with Sansqrit agas Iranian Agaros and exists also in Mycenean names like Aga-memnon and is IE not Semitic, from h2ago or Yeh2g,



    terminology
    Aγος = curse, divine wrath, impiety, miasma
    Αγιος = saint holly, divine (Holly Ghost = Aγιον Πνευμα = Spiritus Sanctus)


    Agos Agios has nothing to do with Aggelos-angel

    Angel- Aggelos is pure Greek word,
    with IE roots, cognated with Germanic gale
    Agos Agios,
    Armenian Agegh, Sanskrit Agas, have connection, either as loans, either as PIE evolution.


    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...#Ancient_Greek

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...#Ancient_Greek
    Last edited by Yetos; 09-11-19 at 05:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    No personal feelings,
    just happened.

    the word is older in Greek centuries before New testament.

    the Armenian Angegh is connected with Greek agos Aγος and/or Αγιος (with psilosis), not with Aggelos
    which cognates with Sansqrit agas Iranian Agaros and exists also in Mycenean names like Aga-memnon and is IE not Semitic, from h2ago or Yeh2g,



    terminology
    Aγος = curse, divine wrath, impiety, miasma
    Αγιος = saint holly, divine (Holly Ghost = Aγιον Πνευμα = Spiritus Sanctus)


    Agos Agios has nothing to do with Aggelos-angel

    Angel- Aggelos is pure Greek word,
    with IE roots, cognated with Germanic gale
    Agos Agios,
    Armenian Agegh, Sanskrit Agas, have connection, either as loans, either as PIE evolution.


    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...#Ancient_Greek

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...#Ancient_Greek
    Do you happen to have a source for Angel/Angegh=Agos?

    The root of agos is PIE Hyeh₂ǵ- (to revere).

    The root of Armenian angegh is PIE *wel (to see). Angel/Angegh meant "unseen" (i.e. "invisible") not "holy" or "to worship."

    https://www.academia.edu/33109045/In...-2_pp._129-146 (according to this article, the Greek analogy is "aides"--I don't know if this is correct though, as aides seems to come from PIE *weyd).

    So I do not think that agos/agios are analogs with "angegh."

    Angegh'tun/Angel'tun, the cult center of Angegh, was possibly the Ingalene of Greek sources. Presumably then, Armenian angel would be ingal in Greek.

    Edit: note footnote 5 on page 137 in the article that I linked above. I'm not saying that it's correct or that I endorse it, but worth reading.

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Yes. It seems that the consensus is that the people who made the Alaca tombs were Indo-European but I know that some top Hittitologists (or at least Macqueen) doubted that they were created by an Anatolian IE culture such as the Hittites. I used to wonder if maybe they were pre-Mycenaean Greeks, but you (who are much more knowledgable about Greek history than I am) have compelling theories that the Greeks came from the north of Greece and not east (the builders of Alaca seem to have come from the Caucasus/Pontus). I wonder if they were Phrygians?
    No, I haven't seen any genetic studies about the inhabitants.
    ".
    My disapproval for a southern (Anatolian) route for proto-Greek, mainly has to do with the absence of steppe ancestry in all the Anatolian samples that have been tested till now, be it Chalcolithic or Bronze Age. The first time we see steppe ancestry in the Anatolian samples is during the Iron Age, namely too late. On the other hand though, i still keep the southern (Anatolian) route as a possibility. We just need more samples that relate regionally and chronologically in order to solidify our hypotheses in the end.

    I do like Phrygians as an idea, truly. We would need genetics to back this up though since it also ties with the proto-Greek migration. Fortunately we do have the remains of five individuals from Alaca Höyük, but i don't think they have been genetically studied yet. If anyone fro
    m the rest of the readers knows something more, please enlighten us. Here is a paper on them by the way, "A NOTE ON THE HUMAN SKELETONS IN THE ALACA HÖYÜK MUSEUM" (http://dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/26/1004/12189.pdf). Haven't gone through the paper myself yet, only the first page.

    You write, "
    Zaluti seems Hurrian to me. I'd be interested in seeing a list of their kings/etymologies if you do stumble upon them again at some time.".
    I will certainly do if i find it.

    You write, "
    Yes. They definitely (long) have influences from Greek, Iranian, and Armenian though. What I meant was, I wonder if they split off from the main body of PIE early, like Fournet/Bomhard suggest Hurro-Urartian did.".
    No, i don't think this was the case for Proto-Kartvelian. I personally haven't come by any paper to suggest that.


    You write, "
    All very interesting. Thank you. What does "ἀγγελίη" mean?".
    The word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) is simply the Epic and Ionic dialectological form of "ἀγγελία" (angelía), meaning "message/announcement/news". It was present in the Homeric Epics, which are generally accepted as composed around the late 8th or early 7th centuries BCE (certainly based on Bronze Age material that was transmitted orally). Here you can in fact see all the instances where this word appears in both the Iliad and the Odyssey, with a number of inflectional endings of course.

    Iliad (18 times) - Press the "more" blue button on the upper right corner of the respective grey table.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=greek&inContent=true&q=a%29gg eli%2Fan+a%29ggeli%2Fhn+a%29ggeli%2Fa%3Ds+a%29ggel i%2Fa+a%29ggeli%2Fas+a%29ggeli%2Fais+a%29ggeliw%3D n+%5Ba%29g%5Dgeli%2Fan+a%29ggeli%2Fh%7Cs+a%29ggeli %2Fai+a%29ggeli%2Fh%7C+a%29ggeli%2Fa%7C+a%29%5Bgge li%2Fais+a%29ggelia%2Fwn+a%29ggeli%2Fhs+a%29ggeli% 2Fh+a%29ggeli%2Fwn+a%29ggeli%2Fa_&doc=Perseus%3Ate xt%3A1999.01.0133&expand=yes

    Odyssey (20 times) - Press the "more" blue button on the upper right corner of the respective grey table.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=greek&all_words=&all_words_ex pand=on&phrase=&any_words=a%29ggeli%2Fan+a%29ggeli %2Fhn+a%29ggeli%2Fa%3Ds+a%29ggeli%2Fa+a%29ggeli%2F as+a%29ggeli%2Fais+a%29ggeliw%3Dn+%5Ba%29g%5Dgeli% 2Fan+a%29ggeli%2Fh%7Cs+a%29ggeli%2Fai+a%29ggeli%2F h%7C+a%29ggeli%2Fa%7C+a%29%5Bggeli%2Fais+a%29ggeli a%2Fwn+a%29ggeli%2Fhs+a%29ggeli%2Fh+a%29ggeli%2Fwn +a%29ggeli%2Fa_&exclude_words=&documents=Perseus%3 Atext%3A1999.01.0135

    Hence why i think it is simply common linguistic heritage in relation to the respective Persian word, and not a loanword from the Classical period. We also have Mycenaean Linear B "a-ke-ro" which is its cognate. Also, take note of Sanskrit "अजिरा" (a
    jirā) meaning "agile/swift" (central ability of messengers), which also seems to be related.

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    My disapproval for a southern (Anatolian) route for proto-Greek, mainly has to do with the absence of steppe ancestry in all the Anatolian samples that have been tested till now, be it Chalcolithic or Bronze Age. The first time we see steppe ancestry in the Anatolian samples is during the Iron Age, namely too late. On the other hand though, i still keep the southern (Anatolian) route as a possibility. We just need more samples that relate regionally and chronologically in order to solidify our hypotheses in the end.

    I do like Phrygians as an idea, truly. We would need genetics to back this up though since it also ties with the proto-Greek migration. Fortunately we do have the remains of five individuals from Alaca Höyük, but i don't think they have been genetically studied yet. If anyone from the rest of the readers knows something more, please enlighten us. Here is a paper on them by the way, "A NOTE ON THE HUMAN SKELETONS IN THE ALACA HÖYÜK MUSEUM" (http://dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/26/1004/12189.pdf). Haven't gone through the paper myself yet, only the first page.

    Yes. A Phrygian connection could make geographical sense too since Alaca Hoyuk is very close to the later site of Gordium.

    I'd love to know what you think of this:

    Other slightly later tombs with similar metalwork have been discovered at sites which are closer to the Black Sea coast than Alaca, ands it has been suggested that the Alaca tombs show the temporary expansion of a northern culture into central Anatolia. Excavations in the northern area are now revealing a good deal more about this northern culture, and ir can be seen that its metalwork is in many ways related to that found at Maikop and Tsarkaja in the basin of the Cuban, north of the Caucasus [...] But there is no sign of any spread of this kurgan culture further south into Anatolia, so it cannot be linked with the spread of Hittite, to say nothing of Palaic or Luwian. The language of the rulers who were buried in the Alaca tombs, although probably Indo-European, was almost certainly not proto-Hittite.
    Macqueen, J. G. The Hittites, and Their Contemporaries in Asia Minor, revised and enlarged, Ancient Peoples and Places series, Thames and Hudson, 1996 ISBN 0-500-02108-2 p. 32

    I'd love to know if those skeletons were tested. It seems that they are likely Steppic.

    The word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) is simply the Epic and Ionic dialectological form of "ἀγγελία" (angelía), meaning "message/announcement/news". It was present in the Homeric Epics, which are generally accepted as composed around the late 8th or early 7th centuries BCE (certainly based on Bronze Age material that was transmitted orally). Here you can in fact see all the instances where this word appears in both the Iliad and the Odyssey, with a number of inflectional endings of course.

    Iliad (18 times) - Press the "more" blue button on the upper right corner of the respective grey table.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=greek&inContent=true&q=a%29gg eli%2Fan+a%29ggeli%2Fhn+a%29ggeli%2Fa%3Ds+a%29ggel i%2Fa+a%29ggeli%2Fas+a%29ggeli%2Fais+a%29ggeliw%3D n+%5Ba%29g%5Dgeli%2Fan+a%29ggeli%2Fh%7Cs+a%29ggeli %2Fai+a%29ggeli%2Fh%7C+a%29ggeli%2Fa%7C+a%29%5Bgge li%2Fais+a%29ggelia%2Fwn+a%29ggeli%2Fhs+a%29ggeli% 2Fh+a%29ggeli%2Fwn+a%29ggeli%2Fa_&doc=Perseus%3Ate xt%3A1999.01.0133&expand=yes

    Odyssey (20 times) - Press the "more" blue button on the upper right corner of the respective grey table.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=greek&all_words=&all_words_ex pand=on&phrase=&any_words=a%29ggeli%2Fan+a%29ggeli %2Fhn+a%29ggeli%2Fa%3Ds+a%29ggeli%2Fa+a%29ggeli%2F as+a%29ggeli%2Fais+a%29ggeliw%3Dn+%5Ba%29g%5Dgeli% 2Fan+a%29ggeli%2Fh%7Cs+a%29ggeli%2Fai+a%29ggeli%2F h%7C+a%29ggeli%2Fa%7C+a%29%5Bggeli%2Fais+a%29ggeli a%2Fwn+a%29ggeli%2Fhs+a%29ggeli%2Fh+a%29ggeli%2Fwn +a%29ggeli%2Fa_&exclude_words=&documents=Perseus%3 Atext%3A1999.01.0135

    Hence why i think it is simply common linguistic heritage in relation to the respective Persian word, and not a loanword from the Classical period. We also have Mycenaean Linear B "a-ke-ro" which is its cognate. Also, take note of Sanskrit "अजिरा" (ajirā) meaning "agile/swift" (central ability of messengers), which also seems to be related.


    Makes sense. I feel that this happens a lot with Armenian too (which obviously has far less documentation than Greek), where a word is simply identified as being an Iranian loan. A good example is gerd/kert, which is something like "city"* (i.e. Tigranakert (city built by Tigran)--I believe the ancient Greeks rendered it as -certa). Anyway, it's identified as an Iranian loan, but the Urartians had a version of it (-qurda, as in Sarduriqurda), which likely pre-dates Iranian influence, or even presence, in the region. Also, this word exists in other IE language families such as Germanic (gard, garden) and Slavic (grad). Nobody suggests that the Germanic or Slavic are Iranian loans.

    *I think it actually means "enclosure" more specifically

    Another example is the Armenian-Greek name Yervant (Eruand)/Orontes, which supposedly comes from Iranian "Auurant". The Hittites had a name Aruwanda, which nobody suggests is an Iranian loan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Do you happen to have a source for Angel/Angegh=Agos?

    The root of agos is PIE Hyeh₂ǵ- (to revere).

    The root of Armenian angegh is PIE *wel (to see). Angel/Angegh meant "unseen" (i.e. "invisible") not "holy" or "to worship."

    https://www.academia.edu/33109045/In...-2_pp._129-146 (according to this article, the Greek analogy is "aides"--I don't know if this is correct though, as aides seems to come from PIE *weyd).

    So I do not think that agos/agios are analogs with "angegh."

    Angegh'tun/Angel'tun, the cult center of Angegh, was possibly the Ingalene of Greek sources. Presumably then, Armenian angel would be ingal in Greek.

    Edit: note footnote 5 on page 137 in the article that I linked above. I'm not saying that it's correct or that I endorse it, but worth reading.
    the ternination of angel is well known before 470 BC by Simonides from Kea, dedication script to Leonidas tomp

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simonides_of_Ceos

    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἄγγειλον Λακεδαιμονίοις

    Tell them in Lacedaimon, passer-by

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the ternination of angel is well known before 470 BC by Simonides from Kea, dedication script to Leonidas tomp

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simonides_of_Ceos

    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἄγγειλον Λακεδαιμονίοις

    Tell them in Lacedaimon, passer-by
    Okay, but that doesn't answer my question regarding agos=Angegh.

    And if it were a loan from Armenian (note: I'm NOT saying that it is a loan from Armenian) it would be during the 2nd millennium BCE, likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Okay, but that doesn't answer my question regarding agos=Angegh.

    And if it were a loan from Armenian (note: I'm NOT saying that it is a loan from Armenian) it would be during the 2nd millennium BCE, likely.

    there is no publication of connecting Agos and or Agios with Armenian Angegh, it is a fast thought of me, cause both have to do with a divine creature/spirit/deity.
    BUT there is connection with Sansqrit Aga

    BTW
    If we are talking about Tork Angegh, then there is strange connection with Norwegian Thor, Tyr, and Aegir by some,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ...
    If we are talking about Tork Angegh, then there is strange connection with Norwegian Thor, Tyr, and Aegir by some,
    :) ιστορία ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    there is no publication of connecting Agos and or Agios with Armenian Angegh, it is a fast thought of me, cause both have to do with a divine creature/spirit/deity.
    BUT there is connection with Sansqrit Aga

    BTW
    If we are talking about Tork Angegh, then there is strange connection with Norwegian Thor, Tyr, and Aegir by some,
    Aga, possibly, but it seems to come from a different PIE root (*h₂egʰ-).

    For Angegh (a separate deity from Tork Angegh), a connection has been made to Nergal and Tarhu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Aga, possibly, but it seems to come from a different PIE root (*h₂egʰ-).

    For Angegh (a separate deity from Tork Angegh), a connection has been made to Nergal and Tarhu.
    Tarhunna and Illuyanka ?
    the weather deities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Tarhunna and Illuyanka ?
    the weather deities?
    Yes, Taru/Tarhu/Tahunna/Tarhunt, etc.

    Illuyanka was a dragon. And I didn't say Illuyanka. But I do think that Illuyanka may come from the same PIE *wel root as gel/gegh. Wel also meant "to turn, to coil" and was used for snakes.

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Yes. A Phrygian connection could make geographical sense too since Alaca Hoyuk is very close to the later site of Gordium.I'd love to know what you think of this:
    Other slightly later tombs with similar metalwork have been discovered at sites which are closer to the Black Sea coast than Alaca, ands it has been suggested that the Alaca tombs show the temporary expansion of a northern culture into central Anatolia. Excavations in the northern area are now revealing a good deal more about this northern culture, and ir can be seen that its metalwork is in many ways related to that found at Maikop and Tsarkaja in the basin of the Cuban, north of the Caucasus [...] But there is no sign of any spread of this kurgan culture further south into Anatolia, so it cannot be linked with the spread of Hittite, to say nothing of Palaic or Luwian. The language of the rulers who were buried in the Alaca tombs, although probably Indo-European, was almost certainly not proto-Hittite.
    Macqueen, J. G. The Hittites, and Their Contemporaries in Asia Minor, revised and enlarged, Ancient Peoples and Places series, Thames and Hudson, 1996 ISBN 0-500-02108-2 p. 32
    I'd love to know if those skeletons were tested. It seems that they are likely Steppic.".
    I really liked this comment. Yeah, i do believe we should be contemplating the possibility of a southern route. It's just that we need genetics to back it up. Hopefully we will get a publication on the remains of the five individuals from Alaca Höyük sometime soon. I can't wait to study their results.


    You write, "
    Makes sense. I feel that this happens a lot with Armenian too (which obviously has far less documentation than Greek), where a word is simply identified as being an Iranian loan. A good example is gerd/kert, which is something like "city"* (i.e. Tigranakert (city built by Tigran)--I believe the ancient Greeks rendered it as -certa). Anyway, it's identified as an Iranian loan, but the Urartians had a version of it (-qurda, as in Sarduriqurda), which likely pre-dates Iranian influence, or even presence, in the region. Also, this word exists in other IE language families such as Germanic (the word "garden" comes from this root). Nobody suggests that the Germanic is an Iranian loan.
    *I think it actually means "enclosure" more specifically
    Another example is the Armenian name Yervant (Eruand), which supposedly comes from Iranian "Auurant". Orontes is the Greek version. Anyway, the Hittites had a name Aruwanda, which nobody suggests is an Iranian loan.".
    Certainly. I have noticed that as well.

    As for gerd/kert in relation to Greek, i cannot recall anything else other than some Greek people's names which include it. Can you give a couple of examples from Greek nouns that include this root? Probably they do exist, i just can't recall of any currently.

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    I really liked this comment. Yeah, i do believe we should be contemplating the possibility of a southern route. It's just that we need genetics to back it up. Hopefully we will get a publication on the remains of the five individuals from Alaca Höyük sometime soon. I can't wait to study their results.

    Thanks.

    Maybe even if the Greeks and the Phrygians were originally one people but the Greeks went through the Balkans and Phrygians though the Caucasus? Maybe that's unreasonable or overly complicated.

    As for gerd/kert in relation to Greek, i cannot recall anything else other than some Greek people's names which include it. Can you give a couple of examples from Greek nouns that include this root? Probably they do exist, i just can't recall of any currently.

    As for -certa, I guess I was a little bit unclear. It was from Greek renderings of Armenian names such as Tigranagert>Tigranocerta.* I don't know if it was used in Greek outside of such contexts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigranocerta

    Incidentally, the name Tigran is another one of those names which has been etymologized as being an Iranian loan into Armenian, but the name Tigra existed in the region prior to any known Iranian presence (such as Elamite Tigra, the name for the Tigris River).

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    @tyuiopman
    You write, "
    Maybe even if the Greeks and the Phrygians were originally one people but the Greeks went through the Balkans and Phrygians though the Caucasus? Maybe that's unreasonable or overly complicated.".
    I don't think this is the case personally.


    You write, "
    As for -certa, I guess I was a little bit unclear. It was from Greek renderings of Armenian names such as Tigranagert>Tigranocerta.* I don't know if it was used in Greek outside of such contexts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigranocerta
    Incidentally, the name Tigran is another one of th
    ose names which has been etymologized as being an Iranian loan into Armenian, but the name Tigra existed in the region prior to any known Iranian presence (such as Elamite Tigra, the name for the Tigris River).".
    I see what you meant now. It's like the Greek words with "πόλις" (pólis) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis). With examples such as Constantinopolis, Acropolis, Adrianopolis, Alexandroupolis, Tripolis, Persepolis, Sevastopolis, Stauropolis, Nicopolis, etc.. There is also the dialectological Epic/Homeric form of the word, namely "πτόλις" (ptólis). "Τιγρανόκερτα" (Tigranókerta) and other similar examples are simply renderings of foreign words.

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