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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post

    As for gerd/kert in relation to Greek, i cannot recall anything else other than some Greek people's names which include it. Can you give a couple of examples from Greek nouns that include this root? Probably they do exist, i just can't recall of any currently.

    As for -certa, I guess I was a little bit unclear. It was from Greek renderings of Armenian names such as Tigranagert>Tigranocerta.* I don't know if it was used in Greek outside of such contexts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigranocerta

    Incidentally, the name Tigran is another one of those names which has been etymologized as being an Iranian loan into Armenian, but the name Tigra existed in the region prior to any known Iranian presence (such as Elamite Tigra, the name for the Tigris River).

    ..............
    A good example is gerd/kert, which is something like "city"* (i.e. Tigranakert (city built by Tigran)--I believe the ancient Greeks rendered it as -certa).

    -kert;-gerd means "made, created" .See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdegerd_I

    The name Yazdegerd is a combination of the Old Iranianyazad yazata (divine being) and -karta (made) – "God-made", comparable to the Iranian Bagkart and Greek Theoktistos.[1] It is known in other languages as Yazdekert (Pahlavi); Yazd[e]gerd (New Persian); Yazdegerd, Izdegerd and Yazdeger (Syriac); Yazdkert (Armenian); Izdeger and Azger (in the Talmud); Yazdeijerd (Arabic), and Isdigerdes (Greek).[1]


    From list of Avestan words:

    kar(v. rt.) to do, to make, to create; to produce; cl. 5 (k126)

    -kara(suffix) -working; -producing; -energetic (k127)


    P.S .

    http://languagehat.com/manzikert/

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/armenia-iv

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    -kert;-gerd means "made, created" .See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdegerd_I

    The name Yazdegerd is a combination of the Old Iranianyazad yazata (divine being) and -karta (made) – "God-made", comparable to the Iranian Bagkart and Greek Theoktistos.[1] It is known in other languages as Yazdekert (Pahlavi); Yazd[e]gerd (New Persian); Yazdegerd, Izdegerd and Yazdeger (Syriac); Yazdkert (Armenian); Izdeger and Azger (in the Talmud); Yazdeijerd (Arabic), and Isdigerdes (Greek).[1]


    From list of Avestan words:

    kar(v. rt.) to do, to make, to create; to produce; cl. 5 (k126)

    -kara(suffix) -working; -producing; -energetic (k127)


    P.S .

    http://languagehat.com/manzikert/

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/armenia-iv
    I'm aware of this, but I have trouble believing it considering that the city of Sarduriqurda was mentioned more than a century and a half prior to Iranian dominance in the region. If Armenian is genetically closest to Indo-Iranian as well as Greek, I'm not sure why Armenian wouldn't have native forms of words that had phonetically close Indo-Iranian counterparts. Additionally, most scholars now believe that Armenians were present in the region by the foundation of Urartu, if not before. Why would the Urartians adopt words from newcomers who were their enemies?

    NOTE: I don't think anybody denies that Iranians have had a massive influence on Armenians, both linguistically and culturally (something like 4000 "Armenian" root word are actually Iranian), however, I do not believe that all Armenian word etymologized as loans from Iranian are actually loans from Iranian. I think some are native words that have been misidentified as Iranian loans. There are something like 90 Iranian languages, and Iranian languages have a 3000 year written record. There is one Armenian language with 1500 years of direct written record. It's easy to just explain things away as loans.

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    4 members found this post helpful.


    Minoans' affinity to modern populations.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post


    Minoans' affinity to modern populations.

    It peters out a bit by the time it gets to my area of Italy, but still pretty strong. Good. It's my favorite ancient culture. :)

    Interesting how it's a bit darker around Marseilles than around Liguria. It's the effects of Greek colonization around Massalia, perhaps?

    There's also a big difference between Cyprus and neighboring areas of the Levant and Turkey. For Turkey I always think the actual relatively recent actual "Turkic" ancestry screws up the similarities a bit.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here's the samples I get. Not the best fits, but perhaps it is relative to others?


    22. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.52 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    23. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.54 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    26. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 15.26 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    42. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 16.93 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

    54. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.77 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

    69. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 21.03 - I9005 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

    73. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 21.92 - I0071 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It peters out a bit by the time it gets to my area of Italy, but still pretty strong. Good. It's my favorite ancient culture. :)

    Interesting how it's a bit darker around Marseilles than around Liguria. It's the effects of Greek colonization around Massalia, perhaps?

    There's also a big difference between Cyprus and neighboring areas of the Levant and Turkey.
    Angela, on this map, the darker area is around Nice (Nikaia?), not Marseille.
    concerning Cyprus, Turkey had a lot of new influences since the Minoans, as well as Near-East, but if reliable we see here that southern Levant is closer (more "EEF"+Natufian) than Syria, current Anatolia and Armenia, and even more than today Iran (more Iranlike + bits of East-Asians and Steppics?). THat said, I thought they would have been closer one to another...
    Besides, I red the Y-haplos lineages of Cyprian Truks and Greeks were very close one to another: a bit surprising.
    I find very attractive all those maps based on G25, spite they are not always too contrasted in the between very mixed regions. It's an amateur 's work on Anhtrogenica, I think.

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    Agree with you Angela, Turks without their 15% C.Asian ancestry would be probably the closest population to Minoans (along with mainland Greeks without their Slavic ancestry)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Angela, on this map, the darker area is around Nice (Nikaia?), not Marseille.
    concerning Cyprus, Turkey had a lot of new influences since the Minoans, as well as Near-East, but if reliable we see here that southern Levant is closer (more "EEF"+Natufian) than Syria, current Anatolia and Armenia, and even more than today Iran (more Iranlike + bits of East-Asians and Steppics?). THat said, I thought they would have been closer one to another...
    Besides, I red the Y-haplos lineages of Cyprian Truks and Greeks were very close one to another: a bit surprising.
    I find very attractive all those maps based on G25, spite they are not always too contrasted in the between very mixed regions. It's an amateur 's work on Anhtrogenica, I think.
    Even if it's Nice, what would explain that other than the Greek settlement? There was no actual Greek settlement in Liguria. I'm not sure why, since the harbors are good there too. Maybe the Ligures were not so open to trade.

    Yes, as I said, the Turkic component is pretty high in some Turks, so it will affect maps like this.

    The G25 results are not always what one would expect. As you said, an amateur tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Agree with you Angela, Turks without their 15% C.Asian ancestry would be probably the closest population to Minoans (along with mainland Greeks without their Slavic ancestry)
    Moesan brought up a good point, though, in that with G25 the Levant is pretty dark too. Maybe they would be about equal? Mainland Greece got more steppe even before the Slavs, right?

    Minoans seem to have been a particular mix of Anatolian Neolithic overlaid with new migrations from Anatolia which were higher in CHG/Iran Neo.

    Then add in about, what, 15% steppe ancestry and you get the Mycenaeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's the samples I get. Not the best fits, but perhaps it is relative to others?


    22. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.52 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    23. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.54 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    26. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 15.26 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
    Top 98% match vs all users

    42. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 16.93 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

    54. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.77 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

    69. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 21.03 - I9005 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users

    73. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 21.92 - I0071 - (Click for more info)
    Top 96% match vs all users
    Now I'm jealous. I don't get a single Minoan hit. :)

    I looked up my husband's.

    14. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 12.09 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    99
    % match vs all users

    47. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.0 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    95
    % match vs all users

    52. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.57 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    96
    % match vs all users


    53. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.65 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    96
    % match vs all users

    I don't know why there's such a difference between the score for his best match and the others. Yours all cluster together

    He gets only I Minoan.


    57. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.14 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    97
    % match vs all users


    You'd think from the map posted that the similarities would be higher.

    Has anyone done one for a Mycenaean sample?

    I really wish some Greeks would post their results here. It might help to clarify things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now I'm jealous. I don't get a single Minoan hit. :)

    I looked up my husband's.

    14. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 12.09 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    99
    % match vs all users

    47. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.0 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    95
    % match vs all users

    52. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.57 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    96
    % match vs all users


    53. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.65 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    96
    % match vs all users

    I don't know why there's such a difference between the score for his best match and the others. Yours all cluster together

    He gets only I Minoan.


    57. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.14 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
    Top
    97
    % match vs all users


    You'd think from the map posted that the similarities would be higher.

    Has anyone done one for a Mycenaean sample?

    I really wish some Greeks would post their results here. It might help to clarify things.
    I bet he would get the others too, at higher numbers past 60. He has an even closer affinity to the samples than me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Angela, on this map, the darker area is around Nice (Nikaia?), not Marseille.
    concerning Cyprus, Turkey had a lot of new influences since the Minoans, as well as Near-East, but if reliable we see here that southern Levant is closer (more "EEF"+Natufian) than Syria, current Anatolia and Armenia, and even more than today Iran (more Iranlike + bits of East-Asians and Steppics?). THat said, I thought they would have been closer one to another...
    Besides, I red the Y-haplos lineages of Cyprian Truks and Greeks were very close one to another: a bit surprising.
    I find very attractive all those maps based on G25, spite they are not always too contrasted in the between very mixed regions. It's an amateur 's work on Anhtrogenica, I think.
    Southern Levant is closer probably due to the Philistine colonies established there during the LBA/EIA. Interestingly enough, the thread from Anthrogenetica (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18960-G25-Distance-Maps-To-Modern-Europeans&p=622055&viewfull=1#post622055) where these maps were originally published, also has a number of ancient Ashkelon samples (Ashkelon being part of the Philistine pentapolis or five cities). Some of the samples appear to have mixed with the locals, hence why they also carry some Levantine ancestry.




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    Well since I am only 70% Greek, I am not sure I would be the best representative but I am willing to try. What are you guys using to generate these results?

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    Of course southern Levant is related to Ashkenazim's and Sephardim's S-Italian/Aegean genetic affinity. Here is an other thread that relates to this, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture. But this common ancestry came from the Aegean originally, it wasn't Levantine. This is evident in the "Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans" study.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Has anyone done one for a Mycenaean sample?
    Yeah, here it is. Pretty much what the study also described, "finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy". Italy (especially south) seems to have preserved its Aegean ancestry a little more, as a result of not assimilating any Slavic elements. Although i should stress again that Slavic frequency varies throughout Greece, being more dense in the north than in the south. For example, Peloponnese has between 0.2%-14.4%, with the lowest being in Deep Mani (0.7%-1%) and South Tsakonia (0.2%-0.9%), both of them in Laconia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I bet he would get the others too, at higher numbers past 60. He has an even closer affinity to the samples than me.
    He's closer to the Minoan sample, but he's only closer to one of the Mycenaean ones. I don't know what's different about that particular one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Southern Levant is closer probably due to the Philistine colonies established there during the LBA/EIA. Interestingly enough, the thread from Anthrogenetica (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18960-G25-Distance-Maps-To-Modern-Europeans&p=622055&viewfull=1#post622055) where these maps were originally published, also has a number of ancient Ashkelon samples (Ashkelon being part of the Philistine pentapolis or five cities). Some of the samples appear to have mixed with the locals, hence why they also carry some Levantine ancestry.



    Didn't they find that the Philistine genetic influence mostly disappeared, though?

    Or are these the samples "with" the Philistine influence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, here it is. Pretty much what the study also described, "finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy". Italy (especially south) seems to have preserved its Aegean ancestry a little more, as a result of not assimilating any Slavic elements. Although i should stress again that Slavic frequency varies throughout Greece, being more dense in the north than in the south. For example, Peloponnese has between 0.2%-14.4%, with the lowest being in Deep Mani (0.7%-1%) and South Tsakonia (0.2%-0.9%), both of them in Laconia.
    Yes, I remember those discussions. Those areas are where their closest Greek mainland descendants can be found perhaps? The fierce Spartans became the fierce Mani? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Even if it's Nice, what would explain that other than the Greek settlement? There was no actual Greek settlement in Liguria. I'm not sure why, since the harbors are good there too. Maybe the Ligures were not so open to trade.

    Yes, as I said, the Turkic component is pretty high in some Turks, so it will affect maps like this.



    The G25 results are not always what one would expect. As you said, an amateur tool.
    Angela, I was not challenging your interpretation involving Greeks. I suppose Nice received Greek influence too, we are OK.
    That said, concerning today Ligurians, I don't know where come the dense enough Y-E-V13 from?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I remember those discussions. Those areas are where their closest Greek mainland descendants can be found perhaps? The fierce Spartans became the fierce Mani? :)
    Yep, you don't mess with the Maniotes or the Sfakiotes (from the Sfakia area of Crete). As the saying goes, they'd knife you before they'd talk to you. An exaggeration of course but they did have a certain reputation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Didn't they find that the Philistine genetic influence mostly disappeared, though?

    Or are these the samples "with" the Philistine influence?
    These samples appeared in the "Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6609216/) study, which mentioned the following "While our modeling suggests a southern European gene pool as a plausible source, future sampling in regions such as Cyprus, Sardinia, and the Aegean, as well as in the southern Levant, could better resolve this question.". As for your first question, it includes the following "Our analysis suggests that this genetic distinction is due to a European-related gene flow introduced in Ashkelon during either the end of the Bronze Age or the beginning of the Iron Age. This timing is in accord with estimates of the Philistines arrival to the coast of the Levant, based on archeological and textual records. We find that, within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine-related gene pool.", therefore you are right, but my answer was mainly in response to this rather small frequency of Minoan ancestry observed in the Levant. Of course, Philistines aside, we should also consider the Greek colonization of the Levant during the Hellenistic period, with examples such as the "Decapolis" (or ten cities - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Angela, I was not challenging your interpretation involving Greeks. I suppose Nice received Greek influence too, we are OK.
    That said, concerning today Ligurians, I don't know where come the dense enough Y-E-V13 from?
    No problem.

    That's what I don't get about Liguria. We have a lot of EV13, which I always assumed came straight from Greece. Yet, we seem to be slightly lower in Minoan and Mycenaean affinity than either coastal Provence or even neighboring areas in Italy. Strange.

    Although, this "affinity" is pretty attenuated. The maps are somewhat misleading. My husband, as I said above, gets Mycenaean and Minoan hits on mytrueancestry, but the fits are bad. Well, one Mycenaean is about 12, which isn't bad for an ancient sample, I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Agree with you Angela, Turks without their 15% C.Asian ancestry would be probably the closest population to Minoans (along with mainland Greeks without their Slavic ancestry)
    Affinities, sure, but maybe a little less than you think. Even before Turkic tribes introgression, the 'west-asian' part was already stronger at those times (after Chalco, Bronze, Iron) in Anatolia than in Cyprus, and less 'levant' than in Cyprus, I think. Even the quality of 'west-asian' or say, 'Caucasus-Iranlike'was maybe different: isolation in Cyprus and drift? But concerning Y-lineages, Cyprus and today Anatolia are considered as very close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I remember those discussions. Those areas are where their closest Greek mainland descendants can be found perhaps? The fierce Spartans became the fierce Mani? :)
    In regards to Maniots i can tell you that they consider themselves direct descendants of the ancient Spartans, and that their lifestyle was a testament of that as well, although their dialect is pretty much common to the other Greek dialects, as a descendant of Medieval or Byzantine Greek. On the other hand, Tsakonia is home to the only modern dialectological descendant of Doric Greek, in contrast to the other modern Greek dialects which evolved from Koine Greek. Here is a small presentation on it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    These samples appeared in the "Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6609216/) study, which mentioned the following "While our modeling suggests a southern European gene pool as a plausible source, future sampling in regions such as Cyprus, Sardinia, and the Aegean, as well as in the southern Levant, could better resolve this question.". As for your first question, it includes the following "Our analysis suggests that this genetic distinction is due to a European-related gene flow introduced in Ashkelon during either the end of the Bronze Age or the beginning of the Iron Age. This timing is in accord with estimates of the Philistines arrival to the coast of the Levant, based on archeological and textual records. We find that, within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine-related gene pool.", therefore you are right, but my answer was mainly in response to this rather small frequency of Minoan ancestry observed in the Levant. Of course, Philistines aside, we should also consider the Greek colonization of the Levant during the Hellenistic period, with examples such as the "Decapolis" (or ten cities - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis).
    Yes, that's the paper I meant.

    I'd REALLY like to see samples from the Decapolis analyzed. :)

    As I said in the prior post, the maps are somewhat deceiving. Yes, there's an affinity, but actual fits aren't great.

    If some island or mainland Greeks have signed up with mta, I'd love to see them post their results in the mta thread.

    Wouldn't it be great to see the results of a Mani?

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