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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Never heard about Bardhuniotes for example? It seems that with the arrival of the Albanians the Mellingi and the Ezeritae have disappeared.
    Barduniotes weren't considered as Maniots, they weren't even Christian. They also came rather late in the region, namely around 1715. No reason to expand on unrelated material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I'm familiar with that graphic.

    I remember combing the data in the paper and supplement over and over again trying to get a handle on what "Italian" in the context of the paper means for the authors. It seems and seemed to me that it changed its meaning as to whom it includes depending on the particular graphic or paragraph, but they never clarify it. That's what I meant when I said that it wasn't very clearly or well written. We talked a lot about it in the early parts of the thread.

    Yes, the Mani icon just barely misses the "Italian" icon, but is that the Tuscans? If it is, then the Mani icon would be right over where the Southern Italians might plot. Plus, there really is almost no difference between certain Sicilians and certain Calabresi, for example.

    Even ignoring that, the graphic supports the conclusion reached by the authors that the Mani aren't very similar to anyone with, the exception of the Sicilians. Even in that case it's only some of the Mani. I would add some similarity to a few people in East Tay. Only one sample, but still.

    I don't think their distance from everyone is all that unusual considering their isolation.

    I don't think that means we can't draw some conclusions, however. Sardegna also plots far away from everyone else because of drift, but we can and do study them, and draw a lot of conclusions from them. The Ogliastra region is even more isolated, with less influence from the outside world, but it still tells us a lot about Copper Age/early Bronze Age unadmixed "Old Europe". It's just that conclusions have to be cautious ones.

    Anyway, that's how I see it.
    No arguing here, but i would still like to see more studies on them. They seem to make a very widespread cluster, and the Deep Mani sub-cluster which is also the most conservative with almost no Slavic admixture, isn't close to anyone. On the other hand, East Tayetos which is the sub-cluster closer to Sicilians, have some 5.7%-10.9% Slavic admixture. That's why i appear reserved with my aforementioned comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Barduniotes weren't considered as Maniots, they weren't even Christian. They also came rather late in the region, namely around 1715. No reason to expand on unrelated material.
    I didn't said that Bardhuniotes were Maniates. We don't know when they arrived there, it's not clear. We don't know when they converted in Muslims but we know that some of them converted in Christianity, the same with Laliotes.
    BTW, this theory about this connection of Maniates with the Illyrian tribe with the same name from the today territory of Montenegro is a Greek theory supported during the last two centuries by various Greek scholars.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I didn't said that Bardhuniotes were Maniates. We don't know when they arrived there, it's not clear. We don't know when they converted in Muslims but we know that some of them converted in Christianity, the same with Laliotes.
    BTW, this theory about this connection of Maniates with the Illyrian tribe with the same name from the today territory of Montenegro is a Greek theory supported during the last two centuries by various Greek scholars.
    Barduniotes make their appearance with the arrival of the Turks in the region, namely around 1715. They were placed at the borders of Mani to essentially guard the pass, because Mani was autonomous and never really under Ottoman rule. The name of their region most probably stems from the Venetian word "bardia" meaning guard. As for their religious affiliation, they only converted to Christianity after the Hellenic Republic was established. Last, Laliotes weren't in Laconia but in Elia (northwestern Peloponnese). Again, no reason to continue with unrelated subjects.

    There are countless of hypotheses for the name of Mani, literally. Greek scholars don't have one but many.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Barduniotes make their appearance with the arrival of the Turks in the region, namely around 1715. They were placed at the borders of Mani to essentially guard the pass, because Mani was autonomous and never really under Ottoman rule. The name of their region most probably stems from the Venetian word "bardia" meaning guard. As for their religious affiliation, they only converted to Christianity after the Hellenic Republic was established. Last, Laliotes weren't in Laconia but in Elia (northwestern Peloponnese). Again, no reason to continue with unrelated subjects.

    There are countless of hypotheses for the name of Mani, literally. Greek scholars don't have one but many.

    Game and point.

    No more provocative posts based on lack of knowledge of the subject matter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Demetrios, Kelmandasi,

    Yes, that's what I thought. I didn't remember the figures for J1 being all that high in Cyprus. Some late arriving J2 clades might also have carried some Levantine, yes?

    As to Demetrios' specific point here:
    "Regarding J1, there was also a southwestern Anatolian EBA sample that had it from the study of this thread. Namely one from Isparta, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/. And in addition the study also had the following statement, "while the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.". I wouldn't find it surprising if some also made its way to Cyprus, it's certain it did."

    I've been trying to get this point across to people since I don't know when.

    Some of the "Levantine" they find in other groups might have arrived with Anatolians, not just with Arabs or Jews.

    I'm thinking of Crete as just one example.

    The Early Bronze Age Anatolian sample was Z1828*, a clade which today is primarily found in the Caucasus. It's safe to say that the Z1828 clades in Cyprus may be of Anatolian origin, though thus far I haven't come across any Z1828+ Cypriots.

    Majority of Cypriot J1 is P58, and most of those P58 clades are bound to be positive for Z2313 or YSC234. Z2313 and Z2313>YSC234 are associated with Proto-Semitic speakers and their subclades definitely expanded with Semitic speaking groups. Not likely that they would be of local Anatolia origin. I checked the STR values for some of the J1 Greek Cypriots from the study and it does seem that most should be YSC234+.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."
    I like this interpretation; so, modern Greeks are just middle pigmented people for hair, light and dark being the exception?
    But in fact, very dark brown hair is closer to black than to middle brown hair, what a mess! And it is not the first time I see this kind of statement, concerning rather dark pigmented Europeans.

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    I'm sorry fo this late reaction I had when I looked again better to the beginning of this thread; I assume my remark but it is a bit out off topic concerning ancient Greeks. I flied a bit too quickly over this thread, at first. I 'll try to to best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I like this interpretation; so, modern Greeks are just middle pigmented people for hair, light and dark being the exception?
    But in fact, very dark brown hair is closer to black than to middle brown hair, what a mess! And it is not the first time I see this kind of statement, concerning rather dark pigmented Europeans.
    I was quoting someone, I think. :)

    Strictly from observation, "most",not all, Greek Islanders I've seen have dark brown to black hair.

    There is quite a large Greek population here around me, and the mainlanders very rarely have what I would consider black hair, and some have light brown hair, but the majority is still medium to dark brown.

    Our Greek members are free to criticize that. :)

    This is a "Greek" thread, so I won't run on about Italians, but I don't think I ever saw a "black" haired Italian in my parts. Dark brown hair, yes. I have it, inherited from my mother.

    My husband, on the other hand, has as close to black hair as a non Asian, non African can get, but even in his own family it's very much the minority, although present, specifically in his maternal Calabrian grandfather and his mother, from whom he inherited it. The rest are either blonde and blue eyed like his Neapolitan grandmother, or dark brown haired and brown eyed. Strangely, on his father's side, they are lighter: medium and even some light brown haired, and green or hazel eyes. You never know what you're going to get in Italy. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was quoting someone, I think. :)

    Strictly from observation, "most",not all, Greek Islanders I've seen have dark brown to black hair.

    There is quite a large Greek population here around me, and the mainlanders very rarely have what I would consider black hair, and some have light brown hair, but the majority is still medium to dark brown.

    Our Greek members are free to criticize that. :)

    This is a "Greek" thread, so I won't run on about Italians, but I don't think I ever saw a "black" haired Italian in my parts. Dark brown hair, yes. I have it, inherited from my mother.

    My husband, on the other hand, has as close to black hair as a non Asian, non African can get, but even in his own family it's very much the minority, although present, specifically in his maternal Calabrian grandfather and his mother, from whom he inherited it. The rest are either blonde and blue eyed like his Neapolitan grandmother, or dark brown haired and brown eyed. Strangely, on his father's side, they are lighter: medium and even some light brown haired, and green or hazel eyes. You never know what you're going to get in Italy. :)
    It's mostly as you write. Here is also a more specified report based on 119 samples from a paper, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497312001810#tbl0005. I was personally born blonde, but after 3 years of age or so it turned light brown, and i have light brown eyes.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think this thread is a Greek one. It's about Minoans and Mycenians and concerns Greek in the sense they are for a great part descendants of Mycenians, but it concerns other southern Europeans and in some way, culturally speaking, all Europeans. But even if recent history is interesting, it would not be too profitable to speak of too recent events in Greece history, without too much links with the Proto-historic period. Not to say nothing is interesting in some points made in the last parts of the thread.
    I have the impression this thread could turn into an Albania-Greece contest. (half LOL)

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    You write, "Correct, by the end of the 19th century the Arvanite communities of Peloponnese were concentrated in Argolis, Corinth, Messenia, Elis, and Eastern Lakonia, and sporadically found elsewhere too.".
    Arvanites constituted approximately 1/6 of Peloponnese. And they inhabited these regions by the 19th century,
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG.

    You write, "
    Correct again, Arvanites shouldn't necessarily cluster with Maniots or Tsakones, although we don't have data for that. It's unfortunate that the previous study on Peloponnese focused only on how "Slavic" they were and used as comparison only South Italians and Sicilians.
    Correct again, Greeks and Albanians have to be quite similar since we're neighbours, and on top of that many migrations brought us genetically closer.
    ".
    You don't seem to understand that there were also plenty of samples from areas that were prevalent in Arvanites in the study,
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718/figures/1. They also don't cluster close to Maniots and Tsakones, none from Peloponnese or Greece in general does. And i write again, Albanians and Greeks do cluster close autosomally, yet you suggest that two of the most conservative populations in the Peloponnese would cluster with Arvanites but none of the rest of the Greeks which after all cluster with Albanians. Also, comparison isn't just with southern Italians and Sicilians, but with many other people as well. Go study the supplementary information.

    Genetic affinity of Greeks and Albanians is mainly due to both being palaeo-Balkan populations. As for migrations, take note that much of modern Albania in antiquity was designated as "Illyria Graeca" due to the many coastal Greek colonies and the fact that its residents were essentially Hellenized. On the other hand, the descendants of Arvanites throughout Greece are some 200,000-250,000 in a total Greek population of some 10,000,000. Peloponnese alone is home to 1,200,000 Greeks in total.

    You write, "
    It's ok, you can ask. Don't let my Albanian ethnicity make you think I'm here to steal your people.".
    To be honest most of the comments coming from Albanians are provocative, unrelated, and appear to have a nationalistic agenda. I am not worrying of you stealing my people, i know what my people are.

    You write, "
    Perhaps, but most of Arvanites came from Epirus, Thessally, and Aetolia, eventually moving South with time. You're indirectly hinting at the fact that Albanians in Epirus and Thessaly had never heard Greek before.
    So we can't know if those Arvanites carried the word Shklerishte from modern Northern Greece or maybe found actual still not assimilated Slavs there in the 13th-15th century.
    ".
    The Arvanites don't come from Epirus, Thessaly, and Aetolia, but from Central and Northern Albania. They are part of the broader Albanian migrations to the South,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#/media/File:13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png during the Middle Ages. I am not referring to intermediate locations such as Thessaly. Before migrating South, there were certainly many instances during their history that they were only surrounded by Slavic populations, hence how "shklerishte" formed and later got generalized. The term wasn't only used by the Arvanites of Laconia, but generally throughout them.

    You write, "
    Anyway my point is that I mentioned only 1 migration scenario that can complicate things and I'm using this scenario to express my opinion that despite Tsakonia and Mani being isolated during the last 1000 years, there's still another 1000 years or more gap since antiquity which could have enriched these areas genetically. Therefore, it's dubious they represent the real ancient Lakonians. The closest modern population to them, maybe. Although Crete deserves to be included too in this topic.".
    Enriched by who again? It is certain Tsakonians and Maniots are conservative ancient populations. I mention again that in the case of Tsakonians we have a preserved Doric dialect (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw), and in the cases of both Maniots and Tsakonians we know that they converted to Christianity rather late, namely during the 10th-12th centuries CE (similar to the case of Scandinavia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula#Religion). Before that they followed ancient Greek religious practices.

    You write, "
    FYI, the first and most of the Arbereshe Albanians in Sicily came specifically from these areas, namely Morea, as they sing about it calling it their homeland. And that paper on Peloponnese was really disappointing, so I wouldn't be surprised if they messed up many details in there, especially when using small samples where 1 coincidence makes you draw 100 conclusions.".
    I know of Arbereshe people. It's interesting that they sing of Peloponnese despite the fact that they arrived there approximately during the 14th century CE and left during the 15th century CE. Nonetheless, Arbereshe also included migrants from Albania. Furthermore, don't forget that some of the Griko (Greek minority) people in southern Italy, also left Greece the same time with Arbereshe, to avoid the Turks. As for the paper, it's not disappointing, it's just that many don't read it properly.

    You write, "
    And I always forgot to find some time and dig deep into that paper, but does Peloponnese really have 10% Slavic admix (I remember some areas as high as 11-12%)? Slavic admix as in 10% Ukrainian/Belarussian or Bulgarian/Serbian?".
    The Slavic populations used to describe Slavic admixture are modern Belarusians, Russians, Polish and Ukrainians. They are a good example of how original Slavs that entered the Balkans would have been. Modern Bulgarians and Serbians aren't good examples of what the Medieval Slavs that entered the Balkans would have been, because Balkan Slavs have assimilated many pre-Slavic populations.

    Peloponnese has 0.2%-14,4% Slavic admixture. The highest is in Messenia at 6.7%-14.4%.
    Last edited by Demetrios; 02-12-19 at 00:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't think this thread is a Greek one. It's about Minoans and Mycenians and concerns Greek in the sense they are for a great part descendants of Mycenians, but it concerns other southern Europeans and in some way, culturally speaking, all Europeans. But even if recent history is interesting, it would not be too profitable to speak of too recent events in Greece history, without too much links with the Proto-historic period. Not to say nothing is interesting in some points made in the last parts of the thread.
    I have the impression this thread could turn into an Albania-Greece contest. (half LOL)
    I wouldn't like to turn this into a Greek-Albanian contest, because quite honestly the thread would end up in the bin. And no, this is not a Greek thread and indeed it concerns all Europeans, that's why it would be preferable to focus on the original topic. But it's a little difficult when you are being provoked.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, here it is. Pretty much what the study also described, "finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy". Italy (especially south) seems to have preserved its Aegean ancestry a little more, as a result of not assimilating any Slavic elements. Although i should stress again that Slavic frequency varies throughout Greece, being more dense in the north than in the south. For example, Peloponnese has between 0.2%-14.4%, with the lowest being in Deep Mani (0.7%-1%) and South Tsakonia (0.2%-0.9%), both of them in Laconia.

    Attachment 11604
    Here is a copy I found of an early PC map from Cavalli-Sforza et al. It looks like the Mycenaean sample. There seems to be a "regionality" with Greece and Albania, where there's more in common with early Neolithic farmers. Cavalli-Sforza was very interested in how farming spread in Europe, demic or cultural.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Nik, all your posts on the Arvanites are totally off topic, and have nothing to do with the discussion here.

    I will not tolerate provocative posts meant to start another one of your stupid Balkan wars.

    All of them will deleted, and you will get an infraction.

    From now on, any such posts will automatically be deleted and you will get another infraction.

    Civilized discussion ends when you start this crap.

    Everybody else, and I mean everybody, is sick of it.

    STOP.

    This all applies to you too, Laberia.

    This is going to end.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't think this thread is a Greek one. It's about Minoans and Mycenians and concerns Greek in the sense they are for a great part descendants of Mycenians, but it concerns other southern Europeans and in some way, culturally speaking, all Europeans. But even if recent history is interesting, it would not be too profitable to speak of too recent events in Greece history, without too much links with the Proto-historic period. Not to say nothing is interesting in some points made in the last parts of the thread.
    I have the impression this thread could turn into an Albania-Greece contest. (half LOL)
    This study/thread, certainly has influenced me to feel more of a connection with Greeks. Though, my mother's family specifically, always said that they believed they were partly-Greek or more Greek-like, given the history of their town, and region. I was happy to see that the connection verified; despite being 99% sure about it, prior.

    If one goes to the Met in NYC, or the great museums in London, and Berlin; they can see an abundance of Ancient Greek pottery and artifacts from Puglia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nik, all your posts on the Arvanites are totally off topic, and have nothing to do with the discussion here.

    I will not tolerate provocative posts meant to start another one of your stupid Balkan wars.

    All of them will deleted, and you will get an infraction.

    From now on, any such posts will automatically be deleted and you will get another infraction.

    Civilized discussion ends when you start this crap.

    Everybody else, and I mean everybody, is sick of it.

    STOP.

    This all applies to you too, Laberia.

    This is going to end.
    Did you remember to issue an infraction to yourself and other members every time you mentioned Italians and modern Greeks?

    Remember, this topic is about Minoans and Mycenaeans. If someone can talk about modern Peloponnesians, Tsakonians, and Lakonians for pages, I'm allowed to talk about Arvanites whose presence in Peloponnese is for more than 600 years and use them as a factor that shifted the local autosomal admix North.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Did you remember to issue an infraction to yourself and other members every time you mentioned Italians and modern Greeks?

    Remember, this topic is about Minoans and Mycenaeans. If someone can talk about modern Peloponnesians, Tsakonians, and Lakonians for pages, I'm allowed to talk about Arvanites whose presence in Peloponnese is for more than 600 years and use them as a factor that shifted the local autosomal admix North.
    You just earned yourself another infraction for resisting moderation.

    Other members here are tired of you and your clique ruining every thread about ancient dna with spam about Arvanites most often having nothing to do with the topic.

    This thread is about the ORIGIN of Mycenaeans and Minoans and modern GENETIC relationships to them.

    If you want to post some DATA about the genetic relatedness of modern Arvanites to the Mycenaeans and Minoans, go ahead. That means comparisons of the dna of modern Arvanites to the ancient samples, not endlessly repeated posts about where they migrated to and when.

    If you don't have the data get it.



    We get it. Albanians moved to Greece. To keep endlessly repeating it is spamming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This study/thread, certainly has influenced me to feel more of a connection with Greeks. Though, my mother's family specifically, always said that they believed they were partly-Greek or more Greek-like, given the history of their town, and region. I was happy to see that the connection verified; despite being 99% sure about it, prior.

    If one goes to the Met in NYC, or the great museums in London, and Berlin; they can see an abundance of Ancient Greek pottery and artifacts from Puglia.
    Sure, even outside the genetic aspect, which covers before, during and maybe after Great Rome, the cultural one shows what post-Italics people (and us in some part, as a 'domino' effect, even if sometimes this is a bit exagerated) owes to Greek ancient culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Did you remember to issue an infraction to yourself and other members every time you mentioned Italians and modern Greeks?

    Remember, this topic is about Minoans and Mycenaeans. If someone can talk about modern Peloponnesians, Tsakonians, and Lakonians for pages, I'm allowed to talk about Arvanites whose presence in Peloponnese is for more than 600 years and use them as a factor that shifted the local autosomal admix North.
    I would not be so hard as Angela, but if, yes, you have right to speak about these events, I find more productive to keep closer to the very thread and the times involved. I 'm not against these endless discussions, but then, in an appropriate thread. Everybody of us, or close to, did some disgressions sometimes, but it's good knowing when to stop it. No offense.

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    Greeks could have been shifted north due to additional LBA migrations as well, which could have also been part of a more conservative proto-Greek cluster that hadn't mixed as much with pre-Greek populations. In the study we also have the female sample from "Armenoi" Crete dated to the 14th century BCE, which is essentially part of the modern Greek cluster. Then there was also this twitter post by Lazaridis, https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/892931776372498434. But the supplementary information states that the Necropolis of Armenoi where this sample was recovered from dates to 1390-1190 BCE, therefore most certainly LBA. Don't know if it has been touched upon in this thread since i wasn't here from the beginning.

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    To me Albanians and Greeks do not seem that far off genetically, so if we can talk about modern Greeks in this thread, I do not see why not we can talk about Albanians and Arvanitas. But maybe I am wrong.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Edit: Double posted... zzz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post


    Minoans' affinity to modern populations.

    Back to point.

    IMHO since Minoan times, the individual shares genetic resemblance to the whole area of Roman Empire excluding North Africa and the English Chanel. The world was pretty Interconnected at that time.

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    Angela when do you think J2B2-L283 got to the Italian Peninsula?Since that strikingly resembles J2B2 frequency maps.

    Attachment 11627

    It gives me an error when I embed with imgur link I wonder why... So an attachment has to do.

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