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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Lots of Greeks live or used to live in what is today southern Albania, probably for many years. What role do they play in the relative genetic closeness between Albania and Mycenaeans? The settlement question could be a two-way street, many Albanians moved to Greece but many Greeks lived or live in southern Albania. I read that a village in the Peloponnese was founded by Greeks from Himera or somewhere else, who were fleeing the Ottomans.

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    You write, "I expressed my opinion that just like everyone else in the Balkans, their audna got Northern shifted. DONE!".
    And it has been explained to you multiple times that their atDNA didn't got northern shifted. It has been stressed that they have an insignificant frequency (below 1%) of Slavic admixture compared to their surrounding populations, in fact the lowest.

    You write, "
    But then Demetrios and Angela got triggered because they saw Ethnic Group: Albanian, and ofc due to past events from 10 years ago from other Albanians, lets just give this guy enough infractions and shut him up too.".
    I wasn't even around 10 years ago, i don't even know to what you are referring. My active experience with this forum is less than a year, and i have noticed that many Albanians are very provocative and always trying to promote a nationalistic agenda. I do know why they do it, but i wouldn't want to be provocative in return by expanding on the reasons.

    You write, "
    while the guy spams with his signature style "You wrote...", I end up getting blamed for triggering him.".
    Why do you think the "you write" signature is provocative? I have been using this with almost everyone i have interacted here, even the ones i have had quite civilized and fruitful discussions such as @tyuiopman. Yet you think i am being provocative just because of this. If you were to write a single sentence or paragraph i wouldn't be using this template of response, i would simply reply with the "Reply with Quote" button.

    You write, "
    And of course he didn't get any infractions from being over sensitive, thinking I'm gonna claim him people or smth but openly claiming that Albanians are by large old Corinthians from 5th century BC. Very logical.".
    Nobody claimed that, i stressed that the genetic affinity of Greeks and Albanians is mainly due to both being palaeo-Balkan populations, go read my answer again. And then i simply touched upon migrations as well since you were the one who brought them up in a non-detailed way by simply writing the following quote, "
    and on top of that many migrations brought us genetically closer.". I just elaborated a little on that. After all it's a historical and archaeological fact that modern Albania had many coastal Greek colonies, let alone its south which was home to many indigenous Greek tribes.

    You write, "
    I strongly believe we should be focusing more on Crete in order to get a better picture of ancient Greeks since their government is not very keen in giving permissions for testing ancient tombs.".
    Whose government? Please elaborate on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Lots of Greeks live or used to live in what is today southern Albania, probably for many years. What role do they play in the relative genetic closeness between Albania and Mycenaeans? The settlement question could be a two-way street, many Albanians moved to Greece but many Greeks lived or live in southern Albania. I read that a village in the Peloponnese was founded by Greeks from Himera or somewhere else, who were fleeing the Ottomans.
    Your post is inaccurate and i have to remeber that you are off-topic.

    Edit.
    Here is the right thread to explain your opinion:
    South Albania or Epir.

    Last edited by LABERIA; 24-11-19 at 20:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Your post is totally inaccurate, in every single word and i have to remeber that you are off-topic.
    The modern region of Albania had indigenous Greek tribes in the south and coastal Greek colonies in the center and north during antiquity. Even today there is a Greek ethnic minority inhabiting the south, albeit 70% migrated to Greece when the Communist regime fell, nonetheless they continue to be members of the minority and also have the right to vote if they want to.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
    Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.

    I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    To me Albanians and Greeks do not seem that far off genetically, so if we can talk about modern Greeks in this thread, I do not see why not we can talk about Albanians and Arvanitas. But maybe I am wrong.
    The actual topic of the thread is the GENETIC ORIGINS of Minoans and Mycenaeans.

    Discussing the GENETIC relatedness of modern populations like Greeks, Italians or anyone else to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples is an acceptable digression so long as it is based on GENETIC FACTS.

    The history of when different groups arrived in Greece and how that EXPLAINS the Genetics is appropriate, but it's not a SUBSTITUTE for that data.
    We have genetic data for the Greeks from academic papers, including this one. We don't have Albanian data.

    If our Albanian members wish to prove whatever point they're trying to make, which isn't even clear to me, because no one is denying that migration to the Greek mainland pulled Greek mainlanders further from the Mycenaeans and Minoans, they're free to post private genetic data from Albanians, Arvanites from the Peloponnesus etc. comparing them to Mycenaeans. In fact, I would love to see it.

    It's a not inconsiderable expense for three or four people to be sampled and tested from each of those groups at something like 23andme/AncestryDna, and then uploaded to something like mytrueancestry.com., so I would suggest crowd funding for it.

    Then the controversy would be over.

    As for the Mani and other nearby groups it would be great if our Greek members could do the same.

    What is needed is DATA, not the endless spamming of information about this village or that village unsupported by genetic FACTS.

    I can't make it any clearer than that.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
    Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.

    I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?
    I liked your post because i have said this in the past as well and i agree.

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    Completely understandable. Your job is very tough as a moderator dealing with spammers, flame wars and what not, and you have a point.

    About J2B2-L283 in the Italian Peninsula I would love your opinion? When does it date? Maybe this is more related to the Moots Paper, sorry for asking.

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    @Angela, what do you think of the Armenoi sample i wrote of earlier? Has this been discussed in the thread?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I do not understand why Albanians and Greeks seem to always argue. Given how similar their genetic makeup is.
    Its akin to disliking your own kin... Gotta hate politics man.

    I say love your neighbor. We can discuss and argument without getting at each others throats maybe?
    A big "Like" from me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    A big "Like" from me.
    Feel honored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Angela, what do you think of the Armenoi sample i wrote of earlier? Has this been discussed in the thread?
    Yes, we discussed it, with some of the usual types trying to claim that the reason the sample is 30% steppe or so is because she was part of the elite, while the hoi polloi Mycenaeans were the ones with, if you average all the studies with all the various reference samples about what, 17%?

    Ergo, the "real" Mycenaean Lords of legend had a significant amount of "steppe" ancestry, was the clear implication.

    Of course, that ignores the fact that there was an elite sample in the mainland which had the same autosomal make up as the others.

    It also ignores the fact that the Crete sample is from a later period and might be admixed, given that "Minoans" were such seafarers.

    It's always best to stick with the paper, imo:

    ""Cretan from ArmenoiThis individual has only 42,052 SNPs covered in the HOIll dataset and it belongs to a later period(Late Minoan III A-B ~ 1400-1200 BC) than the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi. It does notform a clade with any single (N=1) population of the All set (p-value for rank=0 < 0.001). There areseveral models that fit (p-value for rank=1 > 0.05) for N=2 that agree on this individual having mostof its ancestry from Anatolian Neolithic-related population with additional ancestry from easternEuropean/North Eurasian hunter-gatherers (Table S2.7), as also suggested by the shift of thisindividual in PCA relative to other Minoans and indeed even the Mycenaeans (Fig. 1b). Weacknowledge the possibility that there was geographical structure in the Bronze Age Cretanpopulation (the Armenoi sample comes from northwestern Crete; Fig. 1a), or that population changehad occurred between the time of the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi and the time of thisindividual, however, the lack of high quality data does not allow us to test these hypotheses further."

    That's the sensible and logical conclusion, typical of the work of this group.


    Btw, I share some dna with her if mta is to be believed, so I really would like to know for personal reasons as well, but given the quality of the sample, it's probably just guesswork as to what she represents. She might be more like the Mycenaeans than it seems or less. Who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Completely understandable. Your job is very tough as a moderator dealing with spammers, flame wars and what not, and you have a point.

    About J2B2-L283 in the Italian Peninsula I would love your opinion? When does it date? Maybe this is more related to the Moots Paper, sorry for asking.
    I'm not an expert on this clade, and to be honest one of the reasons I stopped investigating it is because the dedicated thread is a swamp of special pleading, spamming of irrelevant information, and insults, and I stopped even reading the thread. I only intervene if someone complains.


    I do suspect that the frequency of J2b in certain parts of eastern Italy (and Calabria and Sicily) may represent migration through the Balkans/Greece into Italy.

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    There’s no argument from me. I was bringing up an old study from a legendary geneticist, Cavalli-Sforza (who lived to a very old age), and noting its similarity to the Mycenaean study for modern Greeks and Albanians. Historical demographics have had Albanians living in Greece and Greeks living in Albania. That should not be controversial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, we discussed it, with some of the usual types trying to claim that the reason the sample is 30% steppe or so is because she was part of the elite, while the hoi polloi Mycenaeans were the ones with, if you average all the studies with all the various reference samples about what, 17%?

    Ergo, the "real" Mycenaean Lords of legend had a significant amount of "steppe" ancestry, was the clear implication.

    Of course, that ignores the fact that there was an elite sample in the mainland which had the same autosomal make up as the others.

    It also ignores the fact that the Crete sample is from a later period and might be admixed, given that "Minoans" were such seafarers.

    It's always best to stick with the paper, imo:

    ""Cretan from ArmenoiThis individual has only 42,052 SNPs covered in the HOIll dataset and it belongs to a later period(Late Minoan III A-B ~ 1400-1200 BC) than the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi. It does notform a clade with any single (N=1) population of the All set (p-value for rank=0 < 0.001). There areseveral models that fit (p-value for rank=1 > 0.05) for N=2 that agree on this individual having mostof its ancestry from Anatolian Neolithic-related population with additional ancestry from easternEuropean/North Eurasian hunter-gatherers (Table S2.7), as also suggested by the shift of thisindividual in PCA relative to other Minoans and indeed even the Mycenaeans (Fig. 1b). Weacknowledge the possibility that there was geographical structure in the Bronze Age Cretanpopulation (the Armenoi sample comes from northwestern Crete; Fig. 1a), or that population changehad occurred between the time of the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi and the time of thisindividual, however, the lack of high quality data does not allow us to test these hypotheses further."

    That's the sensible and logical conclusion, typical of the work of this group.


    Btw, I share some dna with her if mta is to be believed, so I really would like to know for personal reasons as well, but given the quality of the sample, it's probably just guesswork as to what she represents. She might be more like the Mycenaeans than it seems or less. Who knows?
    Thanks. Yeah, i agree with your and their input as well. As for your question of steppe average ancestry on the Mycenaean samples, it would be around 10%, and the Armenoi sample would be between 20-30%, if i recall correctly from the supplementary material.

    Edit: Proximate sources yeah, it would be around 20% for the Mycenaeans.
    Last edited by Demetrios; 01-12-19 at 23:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It peters out a bit by the time it gets to my area of Italy, but still pretty strong. Good. It's my favorite ancient culture. :)

    Interesting how it's a bit darker around Marseilles than around Liguria. It's the effects of Greek colonization around Massalia, perhaps?

    There's also a big difference between Cyprus and neighboring areas of the Levant and Turkey. For Turkey I always think the actual relatively recent actual "Turkic" ancestry screws up the similarities a bit.
    Interesting for Turkey too--the affinity to modern Turks seems pretty even throughout Turkey (i.e. not too much), but western Turks (especially southwestern) are the Turks with the most actual "Turkic" ancestry. I'm surprised the affinity isn't higher in other areas of Turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Interesting for Turkey too--the affinity to modern Turks seems pretty even throughout Turkey (i.e. not too much), but western Turks (especially southwestern) are the Turks with the most actual "Turkic" ancestry. I'm surprised the affinity isn't higher in other areas of Turkey.
    Higher percentages of CHG/Iranian Neo? Particularly in the east?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Higher percentages of CHG/Iranian Neo? Particularly in the east?
    Probably, via Hurro-Urartians and pre-PIEs, I think, right? Lots of Armenian and Iranian (Kurdish, Zaza, etc) genetic influence in the east.

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    what language is closest to ancient greek ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    what language is closest to ancient greek ?

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    The designation "Ancient Greek" is very broad and can include anything from Mycenaean Greek, to Archaic Greek (including Epic/Homeric Greek), to Classical Greek, to Hellenistic/Koine Greek, and even to a number of different dialects for each period prior to Koine. People though mostly use the term "Ancient Greek" to refer to Classical Attic, since it's the dialect with most of the available original literary material. Anyway, in terms of language (i assume you meant modern) closest to Ancient Greek (regardless of period or dialect) then the answer is obviously Modern Greek. Furthermore, Modern Greek also has a number of dialects and idioms, but they are all (except the aforementioned Tsakonian which is traced to Doric) traced to Koine Greek, which is also known as Hellenistic Greek or Biblical Greek. If you meant to ask, which modern Greek dialect is closest to an Ancient Greek dialect prior to Koine, then the answer would be Tsakonian for Doric and the Ophitic variant of Pontic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek#Ophitic) for Attic/Ionic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This study/thread, certainly has influenced me to feel more of a connection with Greeks. Though, my mother's family specifically, always said that they believed they were partly-Greek or more Greek-like, given the history of their town, and region. I was happy to see that the connection verified; despite being 99% sure about it, prior.

    If one goes to the Met in NYC, or the great museums in London, and Berlin; they can see an abundance of Ancient Greek pottery and artifacts from Puglia.
    Jovialis, where were your parents/grandparents from, which part of Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The designation "Ancient Greek" is very broad and can include anything from Mycenaean Greek, to Archaic Greek (including Epic/Homeric Greek), to Classical Greek, to Hellenistic/Koine Greek, and even to a number of different dialects for each period prior to Koine. People though mostly use the term "Ancient Greek" to refer to Classical Attic, since it's the dialect with most of the available original literary material. Anyway, in terms of language (i assume you meant modern) closest to Ancient Greek (regardless of period or dialect) then the answer is obviously Modern Greek. Furthermore, Modern Greek also has a number of dialects and idioms, but they are all (except the aforementioned Tsakonian which is traced to Doric) traced to Koine Greek, which is also known as Hellenistic Greek or Biblical Greek. If you meant to ask, which modern Greek dialect is closest to an Ancient Greek dialect prior to Koine, then the answer would be Tsakonian for Doric and the Ophitic variant of Pontic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek#Ophitic) for Attic/Ionic.
    certainly informative. so these dialects all represent an isolate and arent related to any of the celtic languages ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Jovialis, where were your parents/grandparents from, which part of Italy?
    My family is 100% from the province of Bari.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    certainly informative. so these dialects all represent an isolate and arent related to any of the celtic languages ?

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    Only Tsakonian can be considered an isolated dialect, and some even classify it as an independent Hellenic language since it has diverged considerably from the other dialects. On the other hand the Ophitic variant of Pontic Greek is simply the most conservative descendant of Attic/Ionic, which is where all other Greek dialects descend from likewise, through Koine Greek, and hence not an isolated dialect. As for your last question, Greek is generally not related to Celtic. If anything Celtic shares similarities mostly with Italic, hence the hypothetical grouping of the Italo-Celtic branch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic) in an Indo-European context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    My family is 100% from the province of Bari.
    Bari ultimately from Latin Barium.
    From Latin Barium, probably from Messapic; an appellative akin to *bauria, *burion (“house”),

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