Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 74 of 79 FirstFirst ... 24647273747576 ... LastLast
Results 1,826 to 1,850 of 1973

Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #1826
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    54
    Points
    373
    Level
    4
    Points: 373, Level: 4
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 77
    Overall activity: 15.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    7 J2a samples have been found in Neolithic Europe, whilst 6 E1b samples have been found. So yeah, pretty similar in terms of distribution for this time period.

    I believe that the Proto-Greeks were predominantly R-Z2103+, perhaps Z2103>L584 given its spread and the fact that it is high in modern day Armenians. Linguists have made connections between the Armenian and Greek languages on various occasions.
    It makes sense. Greek, Armenian, and Phrygian are constantly put in same/related Indo-European tree.

  2. #1827
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    640
    Points
    3,663
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,663, Level: 17
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yes, that's a wrong reference. Proto-Greeks came before the Mycenaeans. I neither don't use the designation proto-Greeks for the Archaic Greeks (9th-8th centuries BCE). The designation of proto-Greeks is academically assigned to the group of Greek speakers that existed before the first divergence happened, namely within the 3rd millennium BCE (there is evidence for that), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language. Mycenaeans appeared much later, around 1650 BCE and were not the only Greeks in existence. Hence it is wrong to be associating proto-Mycenaeans with proto-Greeks. The Mycenaean language is not the proto-Greek language, but an Aeolic dialect essentially.

    Regarding ancient Macedonians. In the opinion of Slavomacedonians (North Macedonia), the ancient Macedonians were Slavs. Opinion doesn't mean anything if it isn't backed by actual evidence. Furthermore, Herodotus claimed that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

    Proto-Mycenaeans would essentially be an Aeolic group that diverged from the proto-Greek nucleus and essentially merged with the pre-Greek populations. Therefore it would be difficult to determine which was the representative Y-DNA haplogroups of proto-Mycenaeans without evaluating more samples. J2a nonetheless appears to have been one of the predominant haplogroups in the region.
    In order to divide who is who, one simple question should be raised here:
    Are proto -Greeks related to tumulus burials in the West- Balkans or not?

    Consider this as well before you answer.

    https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4..._act_58_1_3461

    IMG_4092.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  3. #1828
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,512
    Points
    358,239
    Level
    100
    Points: 358,239, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    7 J2a samples have been found in Neolithic Europe, whilst 6 E1b samples have been found. So yeah, pretty similar in terms of distribution for this time period.

    I believe that the Proto-Greeks were predominantly R-Z2103+, perhaps Z2103>L584 given its spread and the fact that it is high in modern day Armenians. Linguists have made connections between the Armenian and Greek languages on various occasions.
    That would be my guess as well.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #1829
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    872
    Points
    14,630
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,630, Level: 36
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 220
    Overall activity: 62.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yes, that's a wrong reference. Proto-Greeks came before the Mycenaeans. I neither don't use the designation proto-Greeks for the Archaic Greeks (9th-8th centuries BCE). The designation of proto-Greeks is academically assigned to the group of Greek speakers that existed before the first divergence happened, namely within the 3rd millennium BCE (there is evidence for that), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language. Mycenaeans appeared much later, around 1650 BCE and were not the only Greeks in existence. Hence it is wrong to be associating proto-Mycenaeans with proto-Greeks. The Mycenaean language is not the proto-Greek language, but an Aeolic dialect essentially.

    Regarding ancient Macedonians. In the opinion of Slavomacedonians (North Macedonia), the ancient Macedonians were Slavs. Opinion doesn't mean anything if it isn't backed by actual evidence. Furthermore, Herodotus claimed that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

    Proto-Mycenaeans would essentially be an Aeolic group that diverged from the proto-Greek nucleus and essentially merged with the pre-Greek populations. Therefore it would be difficult to determine which was the representative Y-DNA haplogroups of proto-Mycenaeans without evaluating more samples. J2a nonetheless appears to have been one of the predominant haplogroups in the region.
    IMO...in the ancient world, Thessallians would be the most northern of Greek people on the aegean side......macedonians seem to be a mixed race of Greeks, Paeonians and Thracians .................there is no slav
    Last edited by torzio; 29-12-19 at 23:19.
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  5. #1830
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,512
    Points
    358,239
    Level
    100
    Points: 358,239, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    IMO...in the ancient world, Thessallians would be the most northern of Greek people on the aegean side......macedonians seem to be a mongrel race of Greeks, Paeonians and Thracians .................there is no slav
    There is no "MONGREL" race. Everybody is mixed.

    Keep discussions to verifiable DATA, i.e. ANCIENT DNA, not baseless speculations.

  6. #1831
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    7,917
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,917, Level: 26
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 233
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    This is not a thread for such discussion, but to answer your question shortly, we have inscriptions such as the Pella curse tablet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet), which represents a North-West Doric dialect. Plus we have mentions of ancient authors such the Roman historian Livy, who wrote of the Macedonians, "Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language" or in Latin "Aetolos, Acarnanas, Macedonas, eiusdem linguae homines", Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 31, chapter 29. Aetolians and Acarnanians spoke a North-West Doric dialect.
    Whatever the DNA of people who were walking around in classical Macedonia, it would not deviate much compared to other Greeks. Simply because they were an Ancient Balkanian people living in the South Balkan peninsula. They will have EEF ancestry and they will have some Steppe. Personally I think that north Greeks (not just Macedonians) would have a little bit more of Steppe. But that is more or less irrelevant. They are all part of the same genetic mix in the region.

    You logic would perhaps be considered two decades ago. Where some people thought that there were completely unrelated tribes (Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians) in the area. We know now that this is not the case. Exclude the Slavic invasion and most people are genetically reasonably identical to each other. I doubt that you can really distinguish an Ancient Macedonian and an Ancient Epirot or a Thessalian. It would be quite a shocking discovery. It would mean that the Ancient Macedonians were a genetic island in the Balkans. Which automatically means they could not be related to other people in the Balkans either.

    So for the Ancient Macedonians, it's all about their self-dentification, language, culture etc. And we all know where that leads to.

  7. #1832
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    In order to divide who is who, one simple question should be raised here:
    Are proto -Greeks related to tumulus burials in the West- Balkans or not?

    Consider this as well before you answer.

    https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4..._act_58_1_3461

    IMG_4092.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Tumuli burials in Greece are very widespread, with the earliest examples found dated to the EH II period (c.2650–c.2200 BC), https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3462. Plus, i don't see how the paper you shared contradicts anything of what i am writing.

  8. #1833
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    IMO...in the ancient world, Thessallians would be the most northern of Greek people on the aegean side......macedonians seem to be a mongrel race of Greeks, Paeonians and Thracians .................there is no slav
    Macedonians spoke a North-West Doric dialect as was previously mentioned, most probably with an Aeolic and Phrygian substrate. As they expanded eastwards they surely assimilated a number of Thracian people, but that doesn't say much about Macedonians proper. Last, i don't see why it's so difficult to accept that these people are Greeks considering that they spoke the most conservative dialect of ancient Greek, namely Doric, and they inhabited a region that is considered the proto-Greek region, namely north-western Greece. Anyway, everyone seems to have his/her opinion which doesn't say much by its own.

  9. #1834
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    640
    Points
    3,663
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,663, Level: 17
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Tumuli burials in Greece are very widespread, with the earliest examples found dated to the EH II period (c.2650–c.2200 BC), https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3462. Plus, i don't see how the paper you shared contradicts anything of what i am writing.
    You did not answer the question:
    Are proto -Greeks related to tumulus burials in the West- Balkans (Eastern Adriatic)or not?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Last edited by blevins13; 30-12-19 at 11:01.

  10. #1835
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    640
    Points
    3,663
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,663, Level: 17
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by | | View Post
    There are dubious, provocative characters who threatens and insults members, deletes their posts inventing delusional accusations, insults different ethnic groups, insult and excludes members of the forum if they are of a different opinion than they are, even changing members' posts; all at their own discretion, and many of their treaths and insults was deleted afterwards. There are some examples of a borderless naughty and such "scientific beans" are emanating from them everyday: "Are some of you homeless bkz you've been kicked off all the other sites? Fair warning: keep up with the t-roll posts and you'll be out of here in short order, whether it's a bunch of you sickos, or just one sick, twisted jerk with multiple personality disorder. No one is interested in playing your juvenile games." members/28734-Angela "By all means keep down-voting my posts, "Laberia", and "Gidai", and sundry others for other posts. With your reputation scores it turns out you give me points when you do it, if it mattered to me, which it doesn't. :) Now, if it were from people who aren't a byword for idiocy and everything that's wrong with the Balkans, it would be a different story. I guess the truth hurts." members/28734-Angela "And I understand you, you psychotic racist, which is why you're out of here. Let me rephrase. I don't understand what's wrong with the wiring in sick, twisted brains which would deny reality because it throws mud on their white identity. I know them when I see them, however." members/28734-Angela "It's Gidai... He downvotes five or six of my posts everyday, with no rhyme or reason other than that I posted them. As if I care... All he is doing is showing that he has mental health issues..." members/28734-Angela "We've all read your idiotic theories. No one is convinced by them. If you continue to post the same thing over and over again you will receive infractions for spamming. Am I clear???" members/28734-Angela "Could you telegraph that you're a t-roll any more clearly? You know I'm half quasi-Tuscan, and my husband is half Calabrian and so you present calculators that show we're both high in "Jewish" ancestry? So what? Is that supposed to hurt my feelings? (That would be absolutely fine with both me and my husband if it were true, btw.) Go away and find something productive to do with your time other than t-rolling Italians you idiotic racist. Keep going and you'll start getting infractions for posting provocative, disruptive material." members/28734-Angela "It seems Gidai is back as Popa Cristian. Crazy is crazy whatever the name. Do you know what reputation power means? It means how your votes affect someone else's reputation. Yours is zero. Move on. All you do is put yourself and your country in disrepute." members/28734-Angela "It's probably our insane Romanian ex-member under yet another sock. We're working on a permanent solution." members/28734-Angela "Just when did I insult your country and people? (...) You have to really act up to get banned here, but you're well on the road. Do it again and you're out of here. " members/28734-Angela "This is the kind of filth we have to deal with day after day. This deranged Romanian is a perfect example of it. I'm leaving it up so you can see the kind of ethnic slurs and racism that come bubbling up when people can hide behind sock accounts on the internet. " members/28734-Angela "... All you have presented is jumbled,(...) You've also now gotten yourself an infraction. By all means keep it up." members/28734-Angela "You poor young man, don't you tire of showing everyone how crazy you are? Is there no one in your life who can intervene and take you to a doctor?" members/28734-Angela "This retard thinks I'm a peasant... I'm actually a 1%-er This drag on the human race should be allowed to fail, and perish from the face of the earth." members/53388-Jovialis "I am a disgrace to humanity, laugh at the burning car wreck that is my life. Last edited by Jovialis; Today at 02:25. " members/53388-Jovialis "Moderator action: Removal of social reject. Last edited by Jovialis; Today at 16:32. " members/53388-Jovialis ......... and so on... Probably Maciamo, who answered me hard in an email, saying he does not know what is going on!... will be left alone with two psycho naughty cuckoo without limits and without any other members. Maybe only with thousands of fake members, which already represents 99.9% ... such as: kbpenffloancy or Rusyafloancy or Nikorfloancy or kbfyrffloancy or fktrcfylhffloancy or hbqfloancy or dbneczfloancy or timahafloancy or tdrffloancy or dbhffloancy or Perryfloancy or dfktynbrfloancy or Ardisfloancy or qpidnetworkncy or nancyzv1 or gettinghungupfloancy or ybrekffloancy or Arashizilfloancy or dfrffloancy or lilafloancy or Burihelmfloancy or ybrjkfbxfloancy or kbpeiffloancy or Andromathrisfloancy or marinafloancy or fylhjybqfloancy or Gholbizarfloancy Buzatusfloancy or fgjkkbyfhbzfloancy or Sallerfloancy or Lorisfloancy or ufkkffloancy or minutefloancy or esfirkafloancy or byffloancy or Akinozilkreefloancy or trustfloancy or darushafloancy or hbnjffloancy or Agagrinnfloancy or iamfondoffloancy or adyafloancy or marlenkafloancy or yfcnfcm.irffloancy or tiffloancy or lbvffloancy or utzfloancy or or or Ariuswynfloancy or Decembristychfloancy Rogeliofloancy or tvtkmzyfloancy or nfbcrffloancy or rbhbkkbxfloancy or DerBatfloancy or Sarrisfloancy or shirtfloancy or vfhzfloancy or tdljrb.irffloancy or cthueyffloancy or Adrierdinfloancy or geczfloancy or Arsenyfloancy or fylhjiffloancy or kble [ffloancy or cntgfyblrffloancy malefloancy or Goldsongfloancy or Pennyfloancy or lynichfloancy or Hellstafffloancy or Shurenafloancy or palunyafloancy or lfybksxfloancy or Kenethfloancy or fdljrtzfloancy or Vasyunyafloancy or pbyeczfloancy or vfqrffloancy or or or Zatyofloancy or Colondyrfloancy Hellasfloancy or cfyiffloancy or mutafloancy or Galifloancy or daisyfloancy or dbnfkbyrffloancy or Dawnterrorfloancy or nfvffloancy or klvbkfloancy or milyafloancy or artyafloancy or sledgefloancy or vfhktczfloancy or lefhlbrfloancy or fuhbgbyrffloancy or antyafloancy or fyfcnfctzfloancy or atlkzfloancy or Maxfloancy or dfliffloancy or vthrehbzfloancy or ktnzfloancy or kbpfdtnrffloancy or Lesfloancy or alexeicafloancy or yflffloancy or anusfloancy or Dulmaranfloancy or Geletapfloancy or maruhafloancy or rcnffloancy or Mityushafloancy or tdltybqfloancy or ciffloancy or Itananenfloancy or ybrbiffloancy or polesfloancy or ufkbiffloancy or ninokafloancy or nbvjatqrffloancy or fyfcnfcbqfloancy or Jerilynfloancy or Nicolefloancy or deerfloancy or rfnthbyrffloancy or fyffloancy or rtiffloancy or Boryushafloancy or Harnarfloancy or gtnhzqfloancy or Daudtfloancy or iehffloancy or Retouchfloancy or fynzfloancy or ufkczfloancy or Ranesfloancy or gtnheiffloancy or vtktiffloancy or Valyushafloancy or Kolyafloancy or andronfloancy or Kyaroohofloancy or Romulyafloancy or dkflbckfdffloancy or Dianannfloancy or lfybkfloancy or parsleyfloancy or ltybcbqfloancy or Kiryakhafloancy or atlzyzfloancy or ktiffloancy or vfhbvmzyrffloancy or Thorngrenfloancy or fuhbgrffloancy or Ellasfloancy or Anaborfloancy or vbrffloancy or pbyffloancy or AnnyMarsfloancy or Cularenfloancy or rfnffloancy or biffloancy or ktjyfhlfloancy or Famomamnfloancy or Faricofifloancy or Kabandisfloancy or suitefloancy or Anarasiusfloancy or vbktnzfloancy or cntafyffloancy or Androlhalafloancy or aleutinichfloancy or wavingfloancy or Katyurafloancy or daryukhafloancy or Helenafloancy or gtnhfrffloancy or Vasiillafloancy or stepurafloancy or Yuliyafloancy or rjkzyzfloancy or dbnfiffloancy or njveczfloancy or firafloancy or Denafloancy or Beazeziusfloancy or vfhmirffloancy or sergefloancy or kbkbzfloancy or andronicfloancy or rjrffloancy or hfffloancy or Bafymfloancy or klvbksxfloancy or Kimfloancy or Fannyfloancy or cntgfyfloancy or ufkkbbfloancy or Woodhamfloancy utykzfloancy or milenafloancy or cjam.irffloancy or jhziffloancy or Galeyfloancy or Dianafloancy or igoryashafloancy or malyafloancy or atliffloancy or amalafloancy or atjljhffloancy or Dimafloancy or pffhbzfloancy or Efrosimychfloancy or tvffloancy or Volodyuhafloancy or vfhmziffloancy or Valentifloancy or Brenasfloancy or Teshafloancy or or or bekbqfloancy or vbnyzfloancy gtnhznffloancy or dbnfkbzfloancy or uthvfyfloancy or meltingfloancy or shurunyafloancy or artyunyafloancy or xeniafloancy or kmbxfloancy or kbpffloancy or vfrcbvbfyflo ancy or Steviefloancy or Mirohafloancy or Goldclifffloancy or Foderarofloancy or fuhbggbyffloancy or Wilanashfloancy or nfynffloancy or Gavinfloancy or Phillippefloancy or cthubzyfloancy or vfhbfyfloancy or Vanhooserfloancy or ytkzfloancy or rbhbkbxfloancy or lavryushafloancy or Arlelondfloancy or kzfloancy or dfkthbqfloancy or vbrbnffloancy or basiliskfloancy or Chinonfloancy or zinaidkafloancy or androshafloancy or Craryfloancy or ulyankafloancy or Beaulahfloancy or zhankafloancy or fktrcbyffloancy or Heffleyfloancy or Galyafloancy or Juniafloancy or iraidafloancy or rjycnfynbysxfloancy or cabhffloancy or fyutkzfloancy or lfhbzfloancy or cflozlof or spanishwomencuf or spanishwomenccg or spanishwomencny or ukrainewomenccc or ukrainewomencbc or ukrainewomencpq or ukrainewomencks or ukrainewomencjv or ukrainewomencuq or ukrainewomencnh or CindyEncaW or Haroldkency or Florenceparer or ukrainewomencww or ukrainewomencbo or ukrainewomencyb or ukrainewomenceq or GwenCaro73 or ukrainewomencpx or ukrainewomenczs or spanishwomencqo or ukrainewomencwe or spanishwomencux or spanishwomenczw or spanishwomencxh or ukrainewomencwp or spanishwomencfx or latamdatencp or ukrainewomenccz or ukrainewomenciy or spanishwomencns or spanishwomencsn or spanishwomencko or spanishwomencvc or spanishwomenckx or spanishwomencmf or RobertTence or ukrainewomenctu or charmdatereviewsyhy or charmdatereviewsgbb or charmdatereviewspru or charmdatereviewsmlf or charmdatereviewsojl or charmdatereviewsqit or charmdatereviewsuwz or charmdatereviewsizv or charmdatereviewsbam or charmdatereviewsyhh or charmdatereviewswcs or waredogarev83 or charmdatereviewsakh or charmdatereviewstob or hyrevomalep88 or charmdatereviewsusd or charmdatereviewshol or charmdatereviewshpg or charmdatereviewsdck or curevomasek04 or surevodatej41 or charmdatereviewstet or charmdatereviewsqmf or charmdatereviewsrgw or charmdatereviewsmnx or charmdatereviewsiys or charmdatereviewsoih or charmdatereviewstnj or charmdatereviewsvdi or charmdatereviewsipb or charmdatereviewsgtk or charmdatereviewsohh or charmdatereviewsjye or charmdatereviewssoy or charmdatereviewsfuz or charmdatereviewsznu or gruzoperevozzsen or charmdatereviewsgpp or charmdatereviewsxav or charmdatereviewspey or charmdatereviewscbx or charmdatereviewsspn or charmdatereviewskwo or charmdatereviewsbqz or charmdatereviewsrxc or charmdatereviewsjeb or charmdatereviewsixk or charmdatereviewsemy or charmdatereviewsvyy or charmdatereviewsizt or charmdatereviewstho or charmdatereviewsysi or charmdatereviewswwk or charmdatereviewsmde or charmdatereviewspia or charmdatereviewsnxa or charmdatereviewsuki or charmdatereviewsvaf or Lucasdrevy or charmdatereviewswrj or charmdatereviewslfn or charmdatereviewstym or charmdatereviewsttf or charmdatereviewsivl or charmdatereviewsdrc or charmdatereviewsoov or charmdatereviewsoca or charmdatereviewstiu or charmdatereviewsqbm or charmdatereviewsumi or charmdatereviewstvt or charmdatereviewshaa or charmdatereviewsrnw or charmdatereviewsptn or charmdatereviewspqa or charmdatereviewscer or charmdatereviewsdsk or charmdatereviewsqdr or charmdatereviewsdte or charmdatereviewsypq or charmdatereviewsmby or charmdatereviewsbbn or charmdatereviewsdej or charmdatereviewseiw or charmdatereviewsdkv or charmdatereviewsvii or charmdatereviewswkz or charmdatereviewssva or charmdatereviewstiq or charmdatereviewspla or charmdatereviewsopf or charmdatereviewspkk or charmdatereviewszjj or charmdatereviewsizn or charmdatereviewsknj or charmdatereviewsobb or charmdatereviewsxss or charmdatereviewsztk or charmdatereviewsemg or charmdatereviewsang or charmdatereviewsziu or charmdatereviewssha or charmdatereviewscsd or charmdatereviewshot or charmdatereviewssdu or charmdatereviewsuhw or charmdatereviewsmgk or charmdatereviewssli or charmdatereviewsblz or charmdatereviewsakq or charmdatereviewsnug or charmdatereviewsebd or charmdatereviewsaem or charmdatereviewsorb or charmdatereviewsuhr or charmdatereviewsvtg or charmdatereviewsrmj or charmdatereviewsrdb or charmdatereviewsnbt or charmdatereviewslbv or charmdatereviewsgga or charmdatereviewspmw or charmdatereviewsrsb or charmdatereviewskwb or charmdatereviewsoes or charmdatereviewsszk or charmdatereviewsqeq or charmdatereviewsthd or charmdatereviewsdoi or charmdatereviewsyts or charmdatereviewscze or charmdatereviewsvpt or charmdatereviewscfc or charmdatereviewsofj or charmdatereviewshan or charmdatereviewsxbw or charmdatereviewskjw or charmdatereviewswfq or charmdatereviewsgok or charmdatereviewsxyn or charmdatereviewsvkh or charmdatereviewsbap or charmdatereviewsiwc or charmdatereviewsolq or charmdatereviewsive or charmdatereviewsdlp or charmdatereviewskmh or charmdatereviewsdbw or charmdatereviewscjp or charmdatereviewskwv or charmdatereviewssdm or charmdatereviewsfsi or charmdatereviewssyn or charmdatereviewscaw or charmdatereviewsfwu or charmdatereviewsqtx or lyrevohagef18 or charmdatereviewsjgj or charmdatereviewswqh or charmdatereviewslhu or charmdatereviewssng or charmdatereviewsnfq or charmdatereviewscvu or charmdatereviewsdij or charmdatereviewskpp or charmdatereviewsmys or charmdatereviewswnh or charmdatereviewsmtc or charmdatereviewsdsl ... and so on........
    What is this crap all over the board?!


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  11. #1836
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    872
    Points
    14,630
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,630, Level: 36
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 220
    Overall activity: 62.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Macedonians spoke a North-West Doric dialect as was previously mentioned, most probably with an Aeolic and Phrygian substrate. As they expanded eastwards they surely assimilated a number of Thracian people, but that doesn't say much about Macedonians proper. Last, i don't see why it's so difficult to accept that these people are Greeks considering that they spoke the most conservative dialect of ancient Greek, namely Doric, and they inhabited a region that is considered the proto-Greek region, namely north-western Greece. Anyway, everyone seems to have his/her opinion which doesn't say much by its own.
    Then are the 14 ancient Epirote tribes related to Doric since they are in the same area?

    If so, then are Epirotes related to Macedonian only linguistically or also ethnically

    You do realise Macedonia ( ancient ) is north east of Greece

  12. #1837
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    217
    Points
    8,442
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,442, Level: 27
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 308
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2103

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For those interested in phenotypic data:
    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf
    Attachment 8993
    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."
    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."
    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."
    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."
    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.
    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.
    Angela pretty interesting face, it does look like around 25% south Italians, Greeks and Albanians lol (no offense please)
    If this would be somewhat accurate to mycenaeneans face, and as curent dna sugest mostly j2a then can we research more about this 2 HYPOTHESIS?

    1. "The Mycenaeneans are pretty much different with the majority of current Greeks Albanians and to some extent Bulgarians" ?

    2. "THe Mycenaeneans with all their archaeology attributes were actually invaders with a population of not more than 20% who came through Anatolia or from around Anatolia" ?

    I think this correlates more with @maciamo theory although he mentions r1b z1203, and less with this study that current Greeks are highly related with Mycenaeneans

    Can we find any link or maybe any correlation of this Study with this Language study one?...it is very detailed indeed
    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1001555

    The Signal of History
    As we have shown, patterns of IBD provide ample but noisy geographic and temporal signals, which can then be connected to historical events. Rigorously making such connections is difficult, due to the complex recent history of Europe, controversy about the demographic significance of many events, and uncertainties in inferring the ages of common ancestors. Nonetheless, our results can be plausibly connected to several historical and demographic events.

    The migration period.
    One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area. The “smooth” estimates of Figure 4 (and more generally Figures 5 and S17) suggest that this increase in ancestry stems from around 1,000–2,000 ya, since during this time pairs of eastern individuals are expected to share a substantial number of common ancestors, while this is only true of pairs of noneastern individuals if they are from the same population. For example, even individuals from widely separated eastern populations share about the same amount of IBD as do two Irish individuals (see Figure S3), suggesting that this ancestral population may have been relatively small.This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]. This period begins with the Huns moving into eastern Europe towards the end of the fourth century, establishing an empire including modern-day Hungary and Romania, and continues in the fifth century as various Germanic groups moved into and ruled much of the western Roman empire. This was followed by the expansion of the Slavic populations into regions of low population density beginning in the sixth century, reaching their maximum by the 10th century [52]. The eastern populations with high rates of IBD are highly coincident with the modern distribution of Slavic languages, so it is natural to speculate that much of the higher rates were due to this expansion. The inclusion of (non-Slavic speaking) Hungary and Romania in the group of eastern populations sharing high IBD could indicate the effect of other groups (e.g., the Huns) on ancestry in these regions, or because some of the same group of people who elsewhere are known as Slavs adopted different local cultures in those regions. Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis.

    Or even this Study, although this is Neolithic and much Early period and probably would not have any link with Minoans or
    Mycenaeans
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...13433.full.pdf
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 04-01-20 at 19:13.

  13. #1838
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    You did not answer the question:
    Are proto -Greeks related to tumulus burials in the West- Balkans (Eastern Adriatic)or not?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Probably no in terms of proto-Greeks, bearing in mind that we find the earliest examples located near the sea or rivers, not in the mainland, suggesting maritime expansion. Indeed the paper i shared has the following to say, "As a foreign element, it was adopted by and assimilated into the local EBA cultural environments and dynamics, possibly through contacts with cultures in the West Balkans and the Adriatic, or because of the arrival of Balkan populations on the Adriatic coast. This suggests a development of a commercial network for controlling access to the metal producing regions or to the circulation networks of metals and their finished products, and the establishment of small, newly developed social groups at key sites, from where they could trade, these groups being connected through family and economic ties with other local or foreign groups. This may explain the first occurence of tumuli in sites in Western Greece and the eastern Peloponnese, such as Lefkas, Olympia and Lerna, which served as intermediary stops in various exchange networks embracing the Aegean, Anatolia, the central Mediterranean, the Balkans and the Adriatic.". Later examples though are evidently Mycenaean. Plus, this aforementioned contact with the West Balkans and the Adriatic during the EBA, is most probably with the Vučedol culture, with which appears to have been trade relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. Some had even suggested that the "Megaron" was adopted by Mycenaeans from Vučedol, but there is evidence which show that Megarons were common in Greece from the Neolithic. Look for example this small presentation of the settlement of Dimini in Greece, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odfqc3gvMyY.

    But your question is out of context in terms of the paper you shared. The tumuli of northern Greece, namely the ones of Epirus are dated to the LBA, and the paper you shared clearly states in the "Conclusion", "Epirus is out of the picture during this period and remains so until the LBA. The tumuli of Epirus seem to have more affinities with southern Greek tumuli and exhibit characteristics that are probably archaizing for LH southern Greece (twin vessels, apsidal/horse-shoe shaped constructions, orthostatic periboloi).". Plus, taking into account that these respective tumuli were unearthed in Ephyra and Pogoni, the former of them being the main Mycenaean centre in Epirus, shows that these were certainly a Mycenaean influence. Here is also a map with all known Mycenaean sites in Epirus, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg.

  14. #1839
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Then are the 14 ancient Epirote tribes related to Doric since they are in the same area?

    If so, then are Epirotes related to Macedonian only linguistically or also ethnically

    You do realise Macedonia ( ancient ) is north east of Greece
    I don't understand what you are trying to say. Regarding the 14 Epirotic tribes, we know they spoke a North-West Doric dialect, we have many records such as inscriptions and coins. Epirotes are differentiated from the Macedonians, but probably Macedonians became Doric speakers after an Epirotic tribe from Argos Orestiko migrated eastwards, to an Aeolic and Phrygian original area. In a similar fashion, that there was an Epirotic migration of Thesprotians to Thessaly. Last, the ancient Macedon is north-central Greece, but before that Macedonians proper most probably came from the Pindus mountain range, namely the region of Argos Orestiko.

  15. #1840
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    872
    Points
    14,630
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,630, Level: 36
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 220
    Overall activity: 62.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't understand what you are trying to say. Regarding the 14 Epirotic tribes, we know they spoke a North-West Doric dialect, we have many records such as inscriptions and coins. Epirotes are differentiated from the Macedonians, but probably Macedonians became Doric speakers after an Epirotic tribe from Argos Orestiko migrated eastwards, to an Aeolic and Phrygian original area. In a similar fashion, that there was an Epirotic migration of Thesprotians to Thessaly. Last, the ancient Macedon is north-central Greece, but before that Macedonians proper most probably came from the Pindus mountain range, namely the region of Argos Orestiko.

    ok, so you see the area of the 3 fingers as north east
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...les_and_tribes

    So, epirotes and macedonians spoke a North-West Doric language/dialect ? ........................then does that not make them similar

  16. #1841
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    640
    Points
    3,663
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,663, Level: 17
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Probably no in terms of proto-Greeks, bearing in mind that we find the earliest examples located near the sea or rivers, not in the mainland, suggesting maritime expansion. Indeed the paper i shared has the following to say, "As a foreign element, it was adopted by and assimilated into the local EBA cultural environments and dynamics, possibly through contacts with cultures in the West Balkans and the Adriatic, or because of the arrival of Balkan populations on the Adriatic coast. This suggests a development of a commercial network for controlling access to the metal producing regions or to the circulation networks of metals and their finished products, and the establishment of small, newly developed social groups at key sites, from where they could trade, these groups being connected through family and economic ties with other local or foreign groups. This may explain the first occurence of tumuli in sites in Western Greece and the eastern Peloponnese, such as Lefkas, Olympia and Lerna, which served as intermediary stops in various exchange networks embracing the Aegean, Anatolia, the central Mediterranean, the Balkans and the Adriatic.". Later examples though are evidently Mycenaean. Plus, this aforementioned contact with the West Balkans and the Adriatic during the EBA, is most probably with the Vučedol culture, with which appears to have been trade relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. Some had even suggested that the "Megaron" was adopted by Mycenaeans from Vučedol, but there is evidence which show that Megarons were common in Greece from the Neolithic. Look for example this small presentation of the settlement of Dimini in Greece, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odfqc3gvMyY.

    But your question is out of context in terms of the paper you shared. The tumuli of northern Greece, namely the ones of Epirus are dated to the LBA, and the paper you shared clearly states in the "Conclusion", "Epirus is out of the picture during this period and remains so until the LBA. The tumuli of Epirus seem to have more affinities with southern Greek tumuli and exhibit characteristics that are probably archaizing for LH southern Greece (twin vessels, apsidal/horse-shoe shaped constructions, orthostatic periboloi).". Plus, taking into account that these respective tumuli were unearthed in Ephyra and Pogoni, the former of them being the main Mycenaean centre in Epirus, shows that these were certainly a Mycenaean influence. Here is also a map with all known Mycenaean sites in Epirus, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg.
    I am not discussing Epirus or anything, I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you related that with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no? Simple questions.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  17. #1842
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    ok, so you see the area of the 3 fingers as north east
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...les_and_tribes

    So, epirotes and macedonians spoke a North-West Doric language/dialect ? ........................then does that not make them similar
    The area of the three fingers, namely the peninsula of Chalkidiki was not originally part of Macedon, but of Ionian colonists from the island of Euboea. The map of this article is wrong in terms of Macedon. For one Paeonians and Macedonians were different people, second Chalkidiki as aforementioned was mainly Ionic, and third Macedon of approximately 500 BCE encompassed this region, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EK9HqU2XsAAtHFT?format=jpg&name=large, and later expanded north and east, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Expansion_of_Macedon_%28English%29.svg. Macedonians did speak North-West Doric, but a different dialect with an Aeolic and Phrygian substrate. North-West Doric dialects were very widespread in Greece as you saw in the map i shared. You also find them in Aetolia, Acarnania, Phocis, and Elis (Peloponnese). They all spoke a similar dialect, but were considered different Greek groups.

  18. #1843
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not discussing Epirus or anything, I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you related that with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no? Simple questions.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Per Georgiev the proto-Greek language is placed in this region, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png. For one this region represents a very high concentration of original Greek toponyms, in contrast with the rest of southern Greece. For example look at these related maps, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTIDIo8hI/AAAAAAAAAfM/NcHThpLRKcs/s1600/Pre-Greek-01.jpg, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTZ8EJjsI/AAAAAAAAAfU/0YMO5GmnnX0/s1600/Pre-Greek-02.jpg, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTvxQUpdI/AAAAAAAAAfc/yUhHOgKu1bA/s1600/Pre-Greek-03.jpg. Many of these probably represent an earlier IE Anatolian presence in Greece, and not simply Neolithic, as has been also hinted by some ancient authors.
    And also, we have accounts of Phrygians/Brygians living in the broader region of Macedonia (Greece), southern North Macedonia, and Albania. Phrygian is considered very close to Greek and is thought of being part of the same Indo-European branch that migrated in the southern Balkans and gave rise to Greek. Therefore, both of their respective proto-languages, namely proto-Phrygian and proto-Greek, should have evolved close to each other, and this common region appears to be northwestern Greece. The fact that Doric is considered as the most conservative of the Greek dialects also hints to that, because Doric migrated south from this proto-Greek region, around the time of the Bronze Age collapse.

  19. #1844
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    640
    Points
    3,663
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,663, Level: 17
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Per Georgiev the proto-Greek language is placed in this region, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png. For one this region represents a very high concentration of original Greek toponyms, in contrast with the rest of southern Greece. For example look at these related maps, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTIDIo8hI/AAAAAAAAAfM/NcHThpLRKcs/s1600/Pre-Greek-01.jpg, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTZ8EJjsI/AAAAAAAAAfU/0YMO5GmnnX0/s1600/Pre-Greek-02.jpg, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/TIPTvxQUpdI/AAAAAAAAAfc/yUhHOgKu1bA/s1600/Pre-Greek-03.jpg. Many of these probably represent an earlier IE Anatolian presence in Greece, and not simply Neolithic, as has been also hinted by some ancient authors.
    And also, we have accounts of Phrygians/Brygians living in the broader region of Macedonia (Greece), southern North Macedonia, and Albania. Phrygian is considered very close to Greek and is thought of being part of the same Indo-European branch that migrated in the southern Balkans and gave rise to Greek. Therefore, both of their respective proto-languages, namely proto-Phrygian and proto-Greek, should have evolved close to each other, and this common region appears to be northwestern Greece. The fact that Doric is considered as the most conservative of the Greek dialects also hints to that, because Doric migrated south from this proto-Greek region, around the time of the Bronze Age collapse.
    Interesting info, but still your point of view is not clear to me, in relation with tumulus burials.

    I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you relate them with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  20. #1845
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Interesting info, but still your point of view is not clear to me, in relation with tumulus burials.

    I just want to understand your point of view for the proto-Greeks (or the carries of the indoeuropian language that become Greek language), do you relate them with the tumulus burials in Western Balkans or no?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    This still comes down to hypotheses mate. I personally don't relate the proto-Greek group with tumuli burials, mostly because the conservative subgroup of Dorians were cremating their dead, and because we don't find early examples in either of the aforementioned proto-Greek and proto-Phrygian regions. But that doesn't mean they themselves aren't related with EBA Balkan cultures such as Vučedol. There are many hypotheses in terms of how Graeco-Phrygians ended up in the Hellenic peninsula. Some even suggest a Carpathian intermediate stop, while others an Anatolian route and therefore intermediate stop. It really depends. But as i said above as well, i don't consider the earliest examples of tumuli in Greece, namely the ones from EH II to be original proto-Greek elements, but rather influence from the western Balkans with which we knew there were trade relations. As i have noted again in this thread, another form of burial that the Mycenaeans adopted, were the "tholoi", most probably from Minoan Crete, or even from their interactions with southern Iberia, such as Los Millares culture which also had "tholoi". We know for example that Mycenaeans introduced the tradition of "pithoi" burials in southern Iberia (El Argar) sometime around 1550 BCE, therefore i wouldn't be surprised if they were influenced in return with the tholoi from the neighboring Los Millares. But Crete is an equally possible source of "tholoi" since we have dozens of early examples in southern Crete. Therefore i don't view neither tumuli or tholoi as proto-Greek elements, only Mycenaean/Aeolic through adoption, but not initially, since these forms of burials came much later than what i personally consider the proto-Mycenaean/proto-Aeolic divergence from proto-Greek, sometime around 2200-1900 BCE, namely with the appearance of Minyan ware, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan_ware.

  21. #1846
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    640
    Points
    3,663
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,663, Level: 17
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 187
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    This still comes down to hypotheses mate. I personally don't relate the proto-Greek group with tumuli burials, mostly because the conservative subgroup of Dorians were cremating their dead, and because we don't find early examples in either of the aforementioned proto-Greek and proto-Phrygian regions. But that doesn't mean they themselves aren't related with EBA Balkan cultures such as Vučedol. There are many hypotheses in terms of how Graeco-Phrygians ended up in the Hellenic peninsula. Some even suggest a Carpathian intermediate stop, while others an Anatolian route and therefore intermediate stop. It really depends. But as i said above as well, i don't consider the earliest examples of tumuli in Greece, namely the ones from EH II to be original proto-Greek elements, but rather influence from the western Balkans with which we knew there were trade relations. As i have noted again in this thread, another form of burial that the Mycenaeans adopted, were the "tholoi", most probably from Minoan Crete, or even from their interactions with southern Iberia, such as Los Millares culture which also had "tholoi". We know for example that Mycenaeans introduced the tradition of "pithoi" burials in southern Iberia (El Argar) sometime around 1550 BCE, therefore i wouldn't be surprised if they were influenced in return with the tholoi from the neighboring Los Millares. But Crete is an equally possible source of "tholoi" since we have dozens of early examples in southern Crete. Therefore i don't view neither tumuli or tholoi as proto-Greek elements, only Mycenaean/Aeolic through adoption, but not initially, since these forms of burials came much later than what i personally consider the proto-Mycenaean/proto-Aeolic divergence from proto-Greek, sometime around 2200-1900 BCE, namely with the appearance of Minyan ware, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan_ware.
    After so many years of research, science has not agreed on the migration path of the proto Greeks and that is a pity. Personally I believe that proto-Greeks came from Anatolia, but cannot exclude also Carpathian route with what we have learned so far.
    Your point of view contradict Hammond in relation with Epirus and tumulus burials there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  22. #1847
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    362
    Points
    8,992
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,992, Level: 28
    Level completed: 41%, Points required for next Level: 358
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    After so many years of research, science has not agreed on the migration path of the proto Greeks and that is a pity. Personally I believe that proto-Greeks came from Anatolia, but cannot exclude also Carpathian route with what we have learned so far.
    Your point of view contradict Hammond in relation with Epirus and tumulus burials there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    The tumuli of Epirus are an LBA Mycenaean influence and therefore out of context in relation to proto-Greeks.

  23. #1848
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    217
    Points
    8,442
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,442, Level: 27
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 308
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2103

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It also would indeed by ironic if these two groups of people were genetically pretty similar, but then look at the Albanians and Greeks, at least some of them who post on this board. They're genetically similar too.
    It must be something in the water around there.
    I think much more samples are needed betwen Minoans Mycenaeneans and ancient Greek homerian ones...

    I have been researching for a while but not fully in professional manner regarding Greek and Albanian dna and all i can hypothise based on dna stats is this:
    1. On the whole balkan region and above Greeks and Albanians have shown the most similar dna between them, least similar for example are with Serbs Bosnians and Croats, not so similar also with Bulgarians and Romanians and further we go even lesser

    2. Now Greeks have some slavic dna especially north Greece or ethnic greeks I think above 19%, if we consider r1a as slavic, were Albanians have around 7% taking into account also Albanians from Kosovo Macedonia Montenegro south Serbia I believe. Now research suggests that slavic inhabitants came to this region from around 6th century I think.

    3. Much similar with south east and west Greece and peleponese and Crete and Kosovo region especially with ev13 were they have the highest in the world above 40%
    Now from these mycenaeneans and minoans i dont see any ev13 nor r1b (which are majorities for Greeks and Albanians) if i am right? But we see J2E on these samples instead?...
    I also just read a post from @holderlin that its culture and archeology was quite different from proto greek or ancient/old greek...

    Maybe to be more exact than we would need a lot more samples between mycenaeneans minoans and ancient greeks...
    From what i have read i think the oldest ethnicities to these regions are Greeks Bulgarians Albanians, maybe doing more research within these regions and ethnicities would shed more light...


    For more accuracy stats please refer to this post
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...r-DNA-be-E-V13
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 04-01-20 at 16:14.

  24. #1849
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    217
    Points
    8,442
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,442, Level: 27
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 308
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2103

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Yetos, I read on Euripedia that Dorians brought R1b Z2103, which is the same DNA as mine http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...html#Anatolian

    So it seems that I am Doric original after all....If DNA is the criteria of selection. So what do you think about this unaccepted turn of events.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    I have the same R1b Z2103 is that true for me too lol 😆

    Distribution of haplogroup R1b-ht35 (Z2103) in Europe from Maciamo is pretty interesting, you can see that the highest peak is in Peleponese Attica Albania Calabria and Sicily...
    More interesting is that most of these regions have also highest EV13...

    What i found very interesting is most J2a on these old Minoans and Mycenaeneans, did this actually complicate even more?..I always thought J2a was the latest one coming into Europe...

  25. #1850
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    217
    Points
    8,442
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,442, Level: 27
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 308
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2103

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Physical appearance of Alexander



    pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh?? isn't that a bit too idealized? I've never encountered anyone with that ability.

    Roman copy of a herma by Lysippos

    Wow if this is so true than these for me looks like very much of a peasant look, maybe from the mountains, definitely looks more whitish but def brown hair and brown eyes, it also doesnt look like very far south east of Greece alike were they might be a bit more darker, so around Midland Greece to further Macedonia and Albania on the west...

    If we would find his dna would be very interesting

Page 74 of 79 FirstFirst ... 24647273747576 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •