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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    did minoans speak a greek language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin chaide View Post
    did minoans speak a greek language?
    It is difficult to classify the pre-Greek language of Crete, namely because there were a number of different languages that were being spoken on the island at the same time during the Bronze Age, and they were naturally intermingling with each other. Regarding Minoan, as in Linear A, there have been a number of hypotheses in regards to its classification. I personally like the work of Dutch scholar Peter van Soesbergen, who traces a Hurrian affiliation, https://minoanscript.nl/. There are of course many hypotheses, some of which you can read here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A#Theories_regarding_language.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.
    You're absolutely right. Speculation is no substitute for data.


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're absolutely right. Speculation is no substitute for data.
    IMG_4118.jpg

    This is a hypothesis not a speculation.



    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    IMG_4118.jpg
    This is a hypothesis not a speculation.
    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    @Angela this seems like Maciamos hypothesis and therefore asked for his additional input...
    This might not mean 100% that Dorians major group would be z2103 but definitely something to research about...hypothesis speculation = same lol

    @Maciamo can you shed light a bit more on the below please?...

    1. According to this source your R1b M269-L23 would be the same as
    R1b-M269 (xL23)
    1.jpg

    2. Here on this study the spread goes from the central Balkans dont know about the timeframe though...you also mention ''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
    You also mention quote Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE.

    THIS WOULD BE EXACTLY AS ON THE ABOVE MAP

    Which haplogroup do you think mainly belonged to this group?


    Source from:
    Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018).
    https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 09-01-20 at 00:48.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here are the 5 closest modern populations to each sample, using Dodecad K12b. Each file was downloaded by me from ENA and converted to AncestryDNA format in DNAkit studio 2.6:

    Distance to: I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    8.10472702 Cypriots
    10.94615001 Sephardic_Jews
    15.17642250 Morocco_Jews
    15.50650509 Druze
    15.52108566 Ashkenazy_Jews


    Distance to: I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    10.36539917 Sephardic_Jews
    10.73167741 Cypriots
    12.04834843 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.88142073 Sicilian
    13.27241500 Ashkenazy_Jews


    Distance to: I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
    7.36328731 Sephardic_Jews
    9.91813491 Cypriots
    10.93327947 S_Italian_Sicilian
    11.47128153 Sicilian
    11.53933707 Ashkenazy_Jews


    Distance to: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    8.64348888 Sicilian
    8.97400691 S_Italian_Sicilian
    10.67560303 C_Italian
    13.06422596 Tuscan
    13.15328096 Ashkenazi


    Distance to: I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    10.92806936 C_Italian
    11.78013582 Tuscan
    12.59648364 TSI30
    12.70569557 Sicilian
    13.30693804 S_Italian_Sicilian


    Distance to: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    11.05129857 Sicilian
    11.49379398 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.67572483 C_Italian
    14.48416031 Sephardic_Jews
    14.61318925 Ashkenazi


    Distance to: I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    12.42878916 Sephardic_Jews
    14.52720207 Morocco_Jews
    15.37795825 S_Italian_Sicilian
    15.99369563 Sicilian
    16.66706933 Cypriots


    Distance to: I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    19.19387923 S_Italian_Sicilian
    19.38123319 Sephardic_Jews
    19.39888399 Sicilian
    19.90950527 Morocco_Jews
    22.27279282 C_Italian


    Distance to: I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    18.73377698 Sicilian
    18.95648438 Morocco_Jews
    19.32179340 S_Italian_Sicilian
    19.41739684 Sephardic_Jews
    21.28023966 C_Italian


    Distance to: I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    19.84510771 Sardinian
    23.46891774 Andalucia
    24.25093194 Murcia
    25.63719563 North_Italian
    25.71314255 Canarias


    Distance to: I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    25.58365689 Cypriots
    25.93479902 Sicilian
    26.12751997 S_Italian_Sicilian
    26.73861814 Sephardic_Jews
    27.40032482 Ashkenazy_Jews


    Distance to: I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    6.26660195 TSI30
    7.70621178 Tuscan
    8.94646299 North_Italian
    9.25349664 C_Italian
    9.38393841 N_Italian


    Distance to: I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    12.72670028 Sicilian
    12.84305260 S_Italian_Sicilian
    14.81901481 Sephardic_Jews
    15.86489521 Ashkenazy_Jews
    15.92790005 Ashkenazi


    Distance to: I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    13.22084717 Sephardic_Jews
    13.35261023 Morocco_Jews
    15.24028543 Sicilian
    15.55526278 S_Italian_Sicilian
    17.55614422 Ashkenazi


    Distance to: I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.40677909 Sephardic_Jews
    17.01885131 Sicilian
    17.38071920 S_Italian_Sicilian
    17.83439935 Morocco_Jews
    19.36226743 Ashkenazi


    Distance to: I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.02835924 Sephardic_Jews
    17.47265006 Cypriots
    17.72488646 Sicilian
    17.97613696 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.67412381 Morocco_Jews


    Distance to: I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    16.35745090 Sephardic_Jews
    17.81555781 Sicilian
    17.81599843 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.70781120 Cypriots
    18.79535049 Morocco_Jews


    Distance to: I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    15.88887661 Sephardic_Jews
    16.61272103 Sicilian
    16.84600249 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.03942349 Morocco_Jews
    18.57384721 Ashkenazi


    Distance to: I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    19.69157688 Sicilian
    19.92414866 S_Italian_Sicilian
    20.74236968 Morocco_Jews
    20.91704807 Sephardic_Jews
    21.39073631 C_Italian
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    No modern population seems to be close to them, because they were of, almost, a pure neolithic farmer ancestry (with a bit of Caucasus and a bit of Yamnaya).

    Using G25 scaled averages:





    For comparison, these are the stats for all the modern Greek groups (averages):


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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    No modern population seems to be close to them, because they were of, almost, a pure neolithic farmer ancestry (with a bit of Caucasus and a bit of Yamnaya).

    Using G25 scaled averages:





    For comparison, these are the stats for all the modern Greek groups (averages):

    Greece_Neolithic vs Antonio M. et al 2019 samples.

    Consider this block quote from the Antonio paper:


    Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA. However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe.
    The closest are the Neolithic samples.

    Distance to: I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    7.72962483 R9____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
    8.68883767 R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
    9.90131809 R3____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
    10.96392266 R17___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
    11.17630977 R8____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza

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    That's why you have to use the Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N sample on top of the Barcin_N, the former being a bit more 'eastern-shifted' than the latter. You also have to take into account the limitations of the modelling we enthusiasts use in contrast to the professionals.

    But I think the models above can showcase the differentiation between the ancient to the modern groups, the second having a lot more Steppe than the first.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Greece_Neolithic vs Antonio M. et al 2019 samples.

    Consider this block quote from the Antonio paper:




    The closest are the Neolithic samples.

    Distance to: I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    7.72962483 R9____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
    8.68883767 R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
    9.90131809 R3____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
    10.96392266 R17___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado
    11.17630977 R8____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza
    Great info. Thanks, Jovialis. I was pleased to see I got a bit from Ripabianca Neolithic. :)

    Modern populations are pretty close to Mycenaeans, though.

    Distance to: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    8.64348888 Sicilian
    8.97400691 S_Italian_Sicilian
    10.67560303 C_Italian
    13.06422596 Tuscan
    13.15328096 Ashkenazi



    Distance to: I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    10.92806936 C_Italian
    11.78013582 Tuscan
    12.59648364 TSI30
    12.70569557 Sicilian
    13.30693804 S_Italian_Sicilian



    Distance to: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    11.05129857 Sicilian
    11.49379398 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.67572483 C_Italian
    14.48416031 Sephardic_Jews
    14.61318925 Ashkenazi


    I can't wait to see the Classical Era Greeks from Greece and the islands.

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    Jovialis, the classical age Greek colonist from Emporion (Empuries) is the GEDMATCH kit #FM5677291, as far as I know, if you want to add it to your list. I don't know if it's still available (I don't use GEDMATCH) but it's worth checking it out.

    PS. I would like to add also that Empuries was a colony of Phocaeans, from the city of Phocaea in Asia Minor. The Phocaeans (Central Greece) were mostly Dorian in their origin. A significant number of Phocic cities, however, had different origins. Nevertheless, all the cities of Phocis were gradually connected to the commonwealth because of common interests and common enemies.

    So, even though we don't actually have a Dorian proper sample, if we use the Empuries2 sample as a proxy, it wouldn't seem that the Dorians were significantly different (ie, more 'northern-shifted') compared to the rest of the Mycenean cluster.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Great info. Thanks, Jovialis. I was pleased to see I got a bit from Ripabianca Neolithic. :)

    Modern populations are pretty close to Mycenaeans, though.

    I don’t want to be the usual buzzkill but pretty close is something at least under 5 as distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I don’t want to be the usual buzzkill but pretty close is something at least under 5 as distance.
    Well then, I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to Central Italians, who are at a 9 for me, and as for Southern Italians and Sicilians, they're not even from the same planet? :)

    K12b

    3.80336693 TSI30
    5.63808478 Tuscan
    5.91498943 North_Italian
    6.22841874 N_Italian
    8.70606685 O_Italian
    9.07843048 C_Italian
    15.65395797 Baleares
    17.55905464 Greek
    17.79110733 Sicilian
    18.03087352 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.06927779 Galicia
    18.52765501 Extremadura
    18.72087605 Andalucia
    18.81197491 Murcia
    19.46430322 Portuguese
    19.60699875 Canarias
    20.37582882 Castilla_Y_Leon
    20.56794594 Spaniards
    21.91470739 Cataluna
    21.99649972 Spanish
    22.02617534 Ashkenazi
    22.39748870 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.67453197 Castilla_La_Mancha
    22.78799245 Valencia
    22.99709547 Bulgarians

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Jovialis, the classical age Greek colonist from Emporion (Empuries) is the GEDMATCH kit #FM5677291, as far as I know, if you want to add it to your list. I don't know if it's still available (I don't use GEDMATCH) but it's worth checking it out.

    PS. I would like to add also that Empuries was a colony of Phocaeans, from the city of Phocaea in Asia Minor. The Phocaeans (Central Greece) were mostly Dorian in their origin. A significant number of Phocic cities, however, had different origins. Nevertheless, all the cities of Phocis were gradually connected to the commonwealth because of common interests and common enemies.

    So, even though we don't actually have a Dorian proper sample, if we use the Empuries2 sample as a proxy, it wouldn't seem that the Dorians were significantly different (ie, more 'northern-shifted') compared to the rest of the Mycenean cluster.
    He is very close to I9041



    Code:
    FM5677291(Gedmatch)_Greek_Colonist_Empuries,2.20,0,3.49,0.06,35.23,9.17,0,0,11.48,0,38.05,0.33

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well then, I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to Central Italians, who are at a 9 for me, and as for Southern Italians and Sicilians, they're not even from the same planet? :)

    Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

    Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

    I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

    However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...s9M/edit#gid=0

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

    Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

    I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

    However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...s9M/edit#gid=0
    I've ran the Dodecad K12b Italian samples against the Ancient Roman samples;

    Let's move discussion to a more appropriate thread:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post595087

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

    Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

    I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

    However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...s9M/edit#gid=0
    I used K12b because that's what was used to give a result of around 8 for some Mycenaeans to Southern Italians Sicilians.

    I'm sure the data for the ancient Greeks can be converted to Eurogenes K13 for comparison.

    These are my results. I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to anyone south of Lazio.
    2.99839957 Emilia
    3.15726147 Tuscany
    3.38475996 Liguria
    3.67819249 Tuscan
    4.30383550 Romagna
    5.21252338 Umbria
    6.16301874 Lombardy
    6.22120567 Marche
    6.24877588 Lazio
    6.80908217 FrenchCorsica
    7.16684031 Veneto
    7.74483053 Piedmont
    8.55386462 Friuli-VG
    9.55260174 Greek_Western-Thrace
    10.37322997 Greek_Central-Macedonia
    10.40681507 Trentino
    10.56576547 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
    10.78628759 Swiss_Italian
    10.85248359 Swiss-Italian
    11.19184971 Albanian
    11.27902035 West_Sicilian
    11.29719134 Kosovo_Albanian
    11.66765186 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
    12.33875196 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
    12.35486544 Greek_Western-Macedonia
    12.46015249 Abruzzo
    12.67167708 Turk_Alexandroupoli
    12.72158795 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
    12.80389394 Greek_Thessaly
    13.07666624 Vlach_North-Macedonia
    13.20890916 North_Macedonian
    13.28875464 Basilicata
    13.29574368 Molise
    13.36336784 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
    13.58006259 Turk_Kazanlik
    13.74839991 Macedonian_East
    13.87101294 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.87630715 Bulgarian_Southwest
    13.93366427 Bulgarian_Central
    13.99984821 GR_Peloponese
    14.24799284 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
    14.33496425 Apulia
    14.46980995 Turk_Kavala
    14.60548869 Greek_Thessaloniki
    14.72815331 Portuguese
    14.76043021 Bulgarian_Serres
    14.82099524 Spanish_Extremadura
    15.13495953 Greek_Andros_Island
    15.21457854 Macedonian_Southeast
    15.46256447 Turk_Thessaloniki


    K15-I'm not even pretty close to the Veneto on this one...
    3.86931518 Italy_Tuscany
    4.23288318 Italy_Emiliaromagna
    4.25635995 Italy_Liguria
    4.46072864 Tuscan
    6.50442926 North_Italian
    6.55881849 Italy_Lazio
    6.83303007 Italy_Marche
    7.39247590 Italy_Lombardy
    7.49916662 France_Corsica
    8.00542941 Italy_Friuli
    8.40202357 Italy_Veneto
    8.93296703 Albanian-Kosovo
    9.44547922 Kosovo_Albanian
    9.53782470 Albanian-Macedonia
    9.78762484 Albanian-South
    9.82057534 Albanian-North
    10.17207452 Italy_Piedmont
    10.84424732 Italy_Trentino
    11.25753970 West_Sicilian
    12.44466151 Greek_Thessaly
    12.56755744 Macedonian_2
    12.64764850 GR_Peloponese
    12.91083653 Greek
    13.21623623 Italy_Abruzzo
    13.88518275 Italy_Apulia

    For K13 vs K15, how do I decide which is "better" or closer to the truth? Is it the one where I like the results better?

    Of maybe it's semantics. Is a distance of 8 great? No, but it's the best score the Mycenaeans get with any modern population, and better than I get with some modern Italian populations. We'll see if the guys can change the data for the ancient Greeks to Eurogenes K13 and K15 if they have a chance to see if they're closer or further away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I used K12b because that's what was used to give a result of around 8 for some Mycenaeans to Southern Italians Sicilians.

    I'm sure the data for the ancient Greeks can be converted to Eurogenes K13 for comparison.

    These are my results. I guess I'm not "pretty close" to anyone south .
    2.99839957 Emilia
    3.15726147 Tuscany
    3.38475996 Liguria
    3.67819249 Tuscan
    4.30383550 Romagna
    5.21252338 Umbria
    6.16301874 Lombardy
    6.22120567 Marche
    6.24877588 Lazio
    6.80908217 FrenchCorsica
    7.16684031 Veneto
    7.74483053 Piedmont
    8.55386462 Friuli-VG
    9.55260174 Greek_Western-Thrace
    10.37322997 Greek_Central-Macedonia
    10.40681507 Trentino
    10.56576547 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
    10.78628759 Swiss_Italian
    10.85248359 Swiss-Italian
    11.19184971 Albanian
    11.27902035 West_Sicilian
    11.29719134 Kosovo_Albanian
    11.66765186 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
    12.33875196 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
    12.35486544 Greek_Western-Macedonia
    12.46015249 Abruzzo
    12.67167708 Turk_Alexandroupoli
    12.72158795 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
    12.80389394 Greek_Thessaly
    13.07666624 Vlach_North-Macedonia
    13.20890916 North_Macedonian
    13.28875464 Basilicata
    13.29574368 Molise
    13.36336784 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
    13.58006259 Turk_Kazanlik
    13.74839991 Macedonian_East
    13.87101294 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.87630715 Bulgarian_Southwest
    13.93366427 Bulgarian_Central
    13.99984821 GR_Peloponese
    14.24799284 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
    14.33496425 Apulia
    14.46980995 Turk_Kavala
    14.60548869 Greek_Thessaloniki
    14.72815331 Portuguese
    14.76043021 Bulgarian_Serres
    14.82099524 Spanish_Extremadura
    15.13495953 Greek_Andros_Island
    15.21457854 Macedonian_Southeast
    15.46256447 Turk_Thessaloniki


    K15-I'm not even pretty close to the Veneto on this one...
    3.86931518 Italy_Tuscany
    4.23288318 Italy_Emiliaromagna
    4.25635995 Italy_Liguria
    4.46072864 Tuscan
    6.50442926 North_Italian
    6.55881849 Italy_Lazio
    6.83303007 Italy_Marche
    7.39247590 Italy_Lombardy
    7.49916662 France_Corsica
    8.00542941 Italy_Friuli
    8.40202357 Italy_Veneto
    8.93296703 Albanian-Kosovo
    9.44547922 Kosovo_Albanian
    9.53782470 Albanian-Macedonia
    9.78762484 Albanian-South
    9.82057534 Albanian-North
    10.17207452 Italy_Piedmont
    10.84424732 Italy_Trentino
    11.25753970 West_Sicilian
    12.44466151 Greek_Thessaly
    12.56755744 Macedonian_2
    12.64764850 GR_Peloponese
    12.91083653 Greek
    13.21623623 Italy_Abruzzo
    13.88518275 Italy_Apulia

    For K13 vs K15, how do I decide which is "better" or closer to the truth? Is it the one where I like the results better?

    Of maybe it's semantics. Is a distance of 8 great? No, but it's the best score the Mycenaeans get with any modern population, and better than I get with some modern Italian populations. We'll see if the guys can change the data for the ancient Greeks to Eurogenes K13 and K15 if they have a chance to see if they're closer or further away.

    K13 is clearly more reliable and stable than K15.

    Ancient Greek samples (Mycenaean) were uploaded to Gedmatch a long time ago and their results have been published several times.

    Why should you be close to the Veneto? Veneto is one of the regions with perhaps the greatest internal differences, having Veneto maritime coasts, plains, hills, Alps and even linguistic minorities, and bordering with the the Germanic and Slavic world. This kinda variabilty is also reflected in the genetic results. So it is obvious that a Veneto average can vary a lot, and it depends on which samples from Veneto are used to represent it.


    Just my humble opinion.

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    I thought better of it.

    I'll just say that there's nothing humble about your delivery.

    You don't think a distance of 8 is "pretty close". Great. You're entitled to judge for your own purposes what is "pretty close" for a modern comparison to ancients.

    I'll repeat: The closest modern population to the Mycenaeans, at a respectable distance of 8 in Dodecad, given the age of the samples, is Southern Italians/Sicilians.

    The relationship is there, and nothing will change it.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's nothing humble about your delivery, I must tell you.

    You don't like any of the results from any of the calculators or any of the papers, really.

    I think you should quit your day job and do your own research and analyses.

    I'm waiting for your revelations with baited breach.

    I think Argumentum ad hominem could be avoided, Angela.

    Of course, there is nothing humble in my opinion. I was just sarcastic.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I think Argumentum ad hominem could be avoided, Angela.

    Of course, there is nothing humble in my opinion. I was just sarcastic.
    We can do without the sarcasm too.

    My comment was absolutely accurate, as you have now confirmed.

    If you're going to go down that road, expect a response.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We can do without the sarcasm too.

    My comment was absolutely accurate, as you have now confirmed.

    At least I have a sense of humor about myself. You've changed your message, admitting in this way you were wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    At least I have a sense of humor about himself. You've changed your message, admitting you were wrong.
    I haven't changed my opinion at all, or admitted I was "wrong" about anything. (Not that I don't when I am). I said you're entitled to your own opinion. There's a difference.

    "I thought better of it.

    I'll just say that there's nothing humble about your delivery.

    You don't think a distance of 8 is "pretty close". Great. You're entitled to judge for your own purposes what is "pretty close" for a modern comparison to ancients.

    I'll repeat: The closest modern population to the Mycenaeans, at a respectable distance of 8 in Dodecad, given the age of the samples, is Southern Italians/Sicilians.

    The relationship is there, and nothing will change it."

    My comment that "I thought better of it" was about a rather blistering post which I deleted.

    I don't think we need to carry on this unedifying display in front of the board any longer.

    You have something to say to me personally, do it in private.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    You have something to say to me personally, do it in private.

    I have nothing to say personally to anyone and I agree with you that we should get back to the subject.

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