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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    my results for K13 ancients

    Distance to: TorzioK13
    5.14279107 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
    7.21271793 CL36_collegno_italy_longobard
    7.47605511 SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    7.54191620 SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard
    7.62072831 RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_ GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9
    7.71743481 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
    7.83749960 DA195_Hungary_Scythian
    8.02793871 SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    8.32675207 DA199_Late_Medieval_Hungary
    8.40845408 SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    8.55622580 SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard
    8.69714321 SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard
    8.70789871 CL23_collegno_italy_longobard
    9.38891900 SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard
    9.47101367 SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    9.66252038 IA_Civitavecchia_R474
    9.66802979 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century
    10.28309292 I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1 _2
    10.32287751 scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce
    10.45008134 CL94_collegno_italy_longobard
    10.54462896 CL57_collegno_italy_longobard
    10.83154190 ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
    11.10855526 SZ18_szolad_hungary_longobard
    11.34702604 CL47_collegno_italy_longobard
    11.45461916 I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1


    27.2 SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard 23.2 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1 17.8 DA195_Hungary_Scythian 15.2 SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard 14.2 SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard 2.2 CL53_collegno_italy_longobard
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
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    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    4.99492743 SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    6.58473993 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
    6.88456970 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century
    7.26103298 ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
    7.46621725 IA_Civitavecchia_R474
    7.58897226 SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    7.81855485 RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_ GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9
    8.14178727 I7424_morisco
    8.14660666 CL36_collegno_italy_longobard
    8.25780843 I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1
    8.84250530 SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard
    8.90200539 I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1 _2
    9.50753385 CL23_collegno_italy_longobard
    9.52839966 I7424_morisco2
    9.57641895 I12647_iberia
    9.73838282 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
    9.77061411 I12647_iberia2
    9.95622418 SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard
    10.27542700 SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard
    10.51157933 scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce
    10.66541138 I12516_iberia
    10.93564813 SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
    10.94344096 IA_Civitavecchia_R473
    11.32243348 CrusaderSI41KingdomofJerusalem
    11.95757919 SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard


    36.4 ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC 36.2 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century 11.8 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard 9.4 SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard 4.8 SZ6_szolad_hungary_longobard 1.2 SZ31_szolad_hungary_longobard 0.2 SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.
    Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
    Yes, Greek colonists from Phocaea (Ionia) founded Massalia (modern-day Marseille, in France), Emporion and Rhoda (modern-day Empúries and Roses, in Catalonia, Spain) and Alalia in Corsica. They clashed against the Etruscans, but there is evidence that many Greek Phoceans artists and merchants had settled in southern Etruria after the Persian conquest of Ionia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
    Yeah, but Phocaea itself was founded by Phocian Greeks from central Greece, under the leadership of Athenians. Identity wise they can prove to be a mess, bearing in mind that the original Phocians were Dorians, but Phocaea of Asia Minor was Ionic-speaking. And above all that, Phocaea was essentially within the Aeolic region (of Asia Minor), or at the very least on the borders of it. As for the rest, we all agree, we are desperate for Classical Greek samples from a number of regions, and some more Mycenaeans shouldn't be out of the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, but Phocaea itself was founded by Phocian Greeks from central Greece, under the leadership of Athenians. Identity wise they can prove to be a mess, bearing in mind that the original Phocians were Dorians, but Phocaea of Asia Minor was Ionic-speaking. And above all that, Phocaea was essentially within the Aeolic region (of Asia Minor), or at the very least on the borders of it. As for the rest, we all agree, we are desperate for Classical Greek samples from a number of regions, and some more Mycenaeans shouldn't be out of the equation.
    It seems possible that Ionian Greeks may have been more EEF than mainland Greeks in the first place. I am not saying this purely on speculation. In the Mycenaean study there is evidence that Western Bronze Age Anatolians were shifted somewhat towards the Near East compared to Mycenaeans. Even compared to Minoans. So if Dorians of Phocaea settled there, they could only have shifted Western Anatolians towards the Mycenaeans if the Dorians themselves were more Steppe. Provided there was intermixture ofcourse. But given the fact that the Phocaeans spoke Ionian and not Doric, there most certainly was.

    My guess is that Doric tribes carried more Steppe admixture, representing the proto-Greeks prior to the fact that they intermixed with the local pre-Greeks. The Mycenaeans already intermixed with the pre-Greeks and are therefore not a good representation of the proto-Greek language barriers. Just like the people of Phocaea (Asia Minor) are not good representatives of the Dorians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    It seems possible that Ionian Greeks may have been more EEF than mainland Greeks in the first place. I am not saying this purely on speculation. In the Mycenaean study there is evidence that Western Bronze Age Anatolians were shifted somewhat towards the Near East compared to Mycenaeans. Even compared to Minoans. So if Dorians of Phocaea settled there, they could only have shifted Western Anatolians towards the Mycenaeans if the Dorians themselves were more Steppe. Provided there was intermixture ofcourse. But given the fact that the Phocaeans spoke Ionian and not Doric, there most certainly was.

    My guess is that Doric tribes carried more Steppe admixture, representing the proto-Greeks prior to the fact that they intermixed with the local pre-Greeks. The Mycenaeans already intermixed with the pre-Greeks and are therefore not a good representation of the proto-Greek language barriers. Just like the Phocaeans are not good representatives of the Dorians.
    Yeah, i hypothesize Dorians having more steppe ancestry as well, due to the fact that they descended from the proto-Greek region of north-western Greece, and also because they spoke the most conservative of all the ancient Greek dialects (read this https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2016/02/07/%ce%b7-%ce%b1%cf%81%cf%87%ce%b1%ce%b9%ce%bf%ce%b5%ce%bb%c e%bb%ce%b7%ce%bd%ce%b9%ce%ba%ce%ae-%ce%b4%ce%b9%ce%b1%ce%bb%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%84%ce%bf%c e%b3%ce%ad%ce%bd%ce%b5%cf%83%ce%b7-3/). Nonetheless take note that even Dorians were heavily intermixed with pre-Greeks, otherwise we wouldn't be speaking of Greek, which as a language has a pre-Greek substrate. What i am trying to say is that even proto-Greeks didn't resemble their Pontic-Caspian steppe Indo-European cousins by the time they diverged from Graeco-Phrygian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Nonetheless take note that even Dorians were heavily intermixed with pre-Greeks, otherwise we wouldn't be speaking of Greek, which as a language has a pre-Greek substrate. What i am trying to say is that even proto-Greeks didn't resemble their Pontic-Caspian steppe Indo-European cousins by the time they diverged from Graeco-Phrygian.
    I agree completely. The pre-Greeks dominated in the Southern Balkans and the proto-Greek speakers mixed with them very early on. But given the fact that they formed in Thessaly/Epirus it would seem likely that they carried more Steppe admixture at one point, being that they may have been one of the source populations which brought this Steppe admixture in that region. So if the Mycenaeans had 12% steppe admixture, and that specific area was already populated by a people who had no Steppe admixture at all, then provided there was some intermixture, the source population who gave Mycenaeans Steppe admixture must have had more of it. Given the fact that the homeland of the proto-Greeks is in North-Western Greece, it is fair to speculate that that region must have had more Steppe admixture. And as Dorians were moving South, the invasion must have elevated Steppe admixture somewhat more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    IMO...in the ancient world, Thessallians would be the most northern of Greek people on the aegean side......macedonians seem to be a mixed race of Greeks, Paeonians and Thracians .................there is no slav
    Peloponesos to central Bulgaria would have formed a linguistic continuum and another continuum would have later evolved from central Bulgaria to central Anatolia from the descend of Phrygians.
    The Indoeuropean clan that settled in that region would have descended in different waves southwards over a 1500 years period and would mingled with the respective local populations of the area they settled, forming the different greek civilazations.
    As such there is no singular ancient greek population. There were many ancient Greek populations and the Northern you went , the ''purer'' greeks got .
    Historical events of the next 3000 years mixed the Greek populations and created a relative uniformity, except in the Greek populations of Pontus and Cyprus that in isolation maintained a profile closer to the respective populations they originated from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    No modern population seems to be close to them, because they were of, almost, a pure neolithic farmer ancestry (with a bit of Caucasus and a bit of Yamnaya).

    Using G25 scaled averages:





    For comparison, these are the stats for all the modern Greek groups (averages):

    Very interesting that the mainland modern Greeks have an Anatolia profile not much unlike the Empuries sample.

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    north-western greece, strong steppe admixture. sounds like they came for northern albania.



    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    north-western greece, strong steppe admixture. sounds like they came for northern albania.



    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
    No, strong "steppe" admixture regionally pertains to the actual Pontic-Caspian steppe, which is where the "steppe" IE branch of languages spread from, including Graeco-Phrygian. Whether they passed through the modern geographical location of northern Albania to end up in north-western Greece, or not, is a matter of hypotheses and of minor importance. Could have entered north-western Greece from Thrace or Anatolia instead. Nonetheless, you seem to be making an anachronistic equation by your use of the term Albania, i assume you are trying to be provocative or something. Back then (namely time of entrance around 2500 BCE) there were none of the Palaeo-Balkan IE languages yet formed. Furthermore, steppe admixture is pretty much the same for most of Greeks and Albanians, therefore even from that anachronistic scope your way of thinking is false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Very interesting that the mainland modern Greeks have an Anatolia profile not much unlike the Empuries sample.
    Also, Northern Greeks (Thessaly, Macedonia and Thrace) as well as the Empuries sample almost have no markers reminiscent to the Iran sample of Ganj Dareh. While the remaining Greeks resemble Mycenaeans and Minoans in that respect.

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    I have no idea why people trust the G25 so much given that the creator has been known to massage data and make strange choices as to which samples he will include.

    I no longer pay much attention to the Eurogenes K13 updated. Those Italian samples are from an Italian Nazi. Aside from any games he may be playing, he has 1 Umbria sample, I Corsica sample etc.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea why people trust the G25 so much given that the creator has been known to massage data and make strange choices as to which samples he will include.

    I no longer pay much attention to the Eurogenes K13 updated. Those Italian samples are from an Italian Nazi. Aside from any games he may be playing, he has 1 Umbria sample, I Corsica sample etc.
    G25 is probably the most accurate calculator that's out for us. All ancient samples and academic samples are included in spreadsheets and can be used http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...obal25_12.html. Given the fact that all samples are available, you can pretty much make any calculator/run that you want. The creators personal opinions don't really matter as a result.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

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    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    G25 is probably the most accurate calculator that's out for us. All ancient samples and academic samples are included in spreadsheets and can be used http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...obal25_12.html. Given the fact that all samples are available, you can pretty much make any calculator/run that you want. The creators personal opinions don't really matter as a result.
    You're assuming all the ancient academic samples are included and further assuming they were prepared honorably. That's a big assumption. He picks and chooses for a reason.

    People shouldn't be so gullible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're assuming all the ancient academic samples are included and further assuming they were prepared honorably. That's a big assumption. He picks and chooses for a reason.

    People shouldn't be so gullible.
    I mean the spreadsheets are available, you can check. And from what I see all available samples are on the spread sheet, maybe a few are missing. It's also a big assumption to say that he leaves out certain samples due to biases.

    Anyways, if he does indeed leave out certain samples, somebody should point out which ones and bring that up to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Also, Northern Greeks (Thessaly, Macedonia and Thrace) as well as the Empuries sample almost have no markers reminiscent to the Iran sample of Ganj Dareh. While the remaining Greeks resemble Mycenaeans and Minoans in that respect.
    G 25 is really a questionable calculator for mainland Greeks. As someone of 100% Peloponnesian ancestry I'm oddly much closer to Central Macedonian, Thessalian samples than Peloponnesian one. We really need more samples from this region to take this calc seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    G 25 is really a questionable calculator for mainland Greeks. As someone of 100% Peloponnesian ancestry I'm oddly much closer to Central Macedonian, Thessalian samples than Peloponnesian one. We really need more samples from this region to take this calc seriously.
    Yeah, same for me on that respect by running on Eurogenes K13 Oracle. Fully Peloponnesian (Messenia and Corinthia) and my closest group is Greek Thessalian, since no Greek Peloponnesian is included for comparison.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, same for me on that respect by running on Eurogenes K13 Oracle. Fully Peloponnesian (Messenia and Corinthia) and my closest group is Greek Thessalian, since no Greek Peloponnesian is included for comparison.
    This perfectly illustrates my point about his work. There's a paper full of samples from the Peloponnese. Why not use them, or at least a randomly chosen subset of them.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. In the 1861 census the population of Peloponnese was 578 598 individuals. At that time the economy of Peloponnese was exclusively agricultural and over 85% of the population was living in small villages and hamlets. We sampled all the districts of Peloponnese (Figure 1a and Supplementary Table 1) and also focused on two culturally distinct subpopulations, the Tsacones and the Maniots. To compare the Peloponneseans with other populations we analyzed samples from published data sets and data sets generated by our studies (Supplementary Table 2 and Supplementary Figure 1). Merging genotypes from different sources and quality control were done as described.11

    The lead author is deceased, but I'm sure some of the others could be contacted. Or someone could contact Iosif Lazaridis at Harvard and see if he knows whether the BAM files can be accessed, or at least whom to contact. Perhaps they weren't released, but if not, they could be asked to release them.

    The same applies, as I said above, to the so called "Grugni" samples for the Italian regions in K13 which I mentioned above. I remembered that paper, and they didn't have samples from most of those areas, so I was immediately skeptical. Finally, I found out they were "collected and prepared" by some Italian Nazi. Instead of a representative sample of Corsicans from the published paper, he uses one sample from God knows where. There's one sample for Umbria. I could go on and on.

    This is the problem with "amateur" tools. There's no ability to demand to see all the documentation, and thus no transparency and no accountability.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This perfectly illustrates my point about his work. There's a paper full of samples from the Peloponnese. Why not use them, or at least a randomly chosen subset of them.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. In the 1861 census the population of Peloponnese was 578 598 individuals. At that time the economy of Peloponnese was exclusively agricultural and over 85% of the population was living in small villages and hamlets. We sampled all the districts of Peloponnese (Figure 1a and Supplementary Table 1) and also focused on two culturally distinct subpopulations, the Tsacones and the Maniots. To compare the Peloponneseans with other populations we analyzed samples from published data sets and data sets generated by our studies (Supplementary Table 2 and Supplementary Figure 1). Merging genotypes from different sources and quality control were done as described.11

    The lead author is deceased, but I'm sure some of the others could be contacted. Or someone could contact Iosif Lazaridis at Harvard and see if he knows whether the BAM files can be accessed, or at least whom to contact. Perhaps they weren't released, but if not, they could be asked to release them.

    The same applies, as I said above, to the so called "Grugni" samples for the Italian regions in K13 which I mentioned above. I remembered that paper, and they didn't have samples from most of those areas, so I was immediately skeptical. Finally, I found out they were "collected and prepared" by some Italian Nazi. Instead of a representative sample of Corsicans from the published paper, he uses one sample from God knows where. There's one sample for Umbria. I could go on and on.

    This is the problem with "amateur" tools. There's no ability to demand to see all the documentation, and thus no transparency and no accountability.
    I agree with you. Samples certainly exist and surely people such as Eurogenes (David Wesolowski) can easily come in contact with one of the scientists who participated in that paper. For example, Fotis Tsetsos communication details are available here, http://orcid.org/0000-0001-5521-846X, and surely Lazaridis can access them as well.

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    The results of a friend. His ancestry being basically a mix of peloponnesian,Western Anatolian Greek and Islander

    Code:
    Target Distance Anatolia_Barcin_N Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Chris_scaled 0.02059906 25.2 39.0 7.0 28.8
    Code:
    Target Distance Anatolia_Barcin_N Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N Baltic_LVA_HG GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_Natufian RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Chris_scaled 0.02059906 25.2 39.0 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0 0.0 28.8
    Last edited by lacreme; 13-01-20 at 19:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, same for me on that respect by running on Eurogenes K13 Oracle. Fully Peloponnesian (Messenia and Corinthia) and my closest group is Greek Thessalian, since no Greek Peloponnesian is included for comparison.
    I've asked several people about the Peloponnesian samples used on G25 and most responses are vague. Yeah we really don't even know where they come from and if they're truly indigenous to the region (at least prior to the early 20th c. population exchanges). The other thing I thought was odd is how mainland shifted the Smyrna sample is on G25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This perfectly illustrates my point about his work. There's a paper full of samples from the Peloponnese. Why not use them, or at least a randomly chosen subset of them.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. In the 1861 census the population of Peloponnese was 578 598 individuals. At that time the economy of Peloponnese was exclusively agricultural and over 85% of the population was living in small villages and hamlets. We sampled all the districts of Peloponnese (Figure 1a and Supplementary Table 1) and also focused on two culturally distinct subpopulations, the Tsacones and the Maniots. To compare the Peloponneseans with other populations we analyzed samples from published data sets and data sets generated by our studies (Supplementary Table 2 and Supplementary Figure 1). Merging genotypes from different sources and quality control were done as described.11

    The lead author is deceased, but I'm sure some of the others could be contacted. Or someone could contact Iosif Lazaridis at Harvard and see if he knows whether the BAM files can be accessed, or at least whom to contact. Perhaps they weren't released, but if not, they could be asked to release them.

    The same applies, as I said above, to the so called "Grugni" samples for the Italian regions in K13 which I mentioned above. I remembered that paper, and they didn't have samples from most of those areas, so I was immediately skeptical. Finally, I found out they were "collected and prepared" by some Italian Nazi. Instead of a representative sample of Corsicans from the published paper, he uses one sample from God knows where. There's one sample for Umbria. I could go on and on.

    This is the problem with "amateur" tools. There's no ability to demand to see all the documentation, and thus no transparency and no accountability.
    I agree 100% with you. Everyone acts like the G25 is godsend compared to the other "old/antiquated" gedmatch calculators but to me it seems to have some "holes" with modern populations. It's seems to work better with ancient samples.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I agree 100% with you. Everyone acts like the G25 is godsend compared to the other "old/antiquated" gedmatch calculators but to me it seems to have some "holes" with modern populations. It's seems to work better with ancient samples.
    There are "holes" in a lot of these calculators. I don't work with the G25 but I'm pretty familiar now with the Eurogenes K13 and K15. There are three Parma Beaker samples: two with varying amounts of steppe, and one with almost no steppe. Whoever put together the K13 Ancient put in two samples: the one with no steppe, which, no surprise, is closest to Sardinians, and the one with the most steppe. I never got a match with either one. Now I have a calculator which includes all three, and I have a "decent" match to that third sample. Now, perhaps there's something wrong with that sample; I don't know. There's nothing wonky with the results, though; they make perfect sense in terms of the cline within Southern Europeans.

    Or, let's talk about the Mycenaeans and Minoans. In all of K13, there's room for a Vietnamese Neolithic sample, but no room for any Mycenaeans, and only one Minoan??? Why? It doesn't really make sense.

    K15 does have three Minoans, but only two Mycenaeans. Again, why?

    So, when you run these calculators for yourself don't assume they have exactly the same set of samples, or that all published samples are included, because they don't, and they're not.

    Maybe all that is cleared up in the G25. I don't know. If so, great. I just think people need to look at that and other calculators carefully to see not only what's there, but what isn't there.

    Oh, weirdly, the K15 includes the North Italian HGDP sample, which clearly shouldn't be there.

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