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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    I like the idea of comparing solely to data sets from single specific studies. For the older papers, unfortunately, the files are massive, and clunky. I wanted to make a new test based on the genetic history of ice age europe. But only a handful of the 51 samples are attainable, in my search for them. I think just one of them was 128 GBs by itself. On top of that, even if they do manage to convert, some of them will not work with admixture studio, or Gedmatch. Especially sample from the Neolithic and earlier.
    Is there a WGS extract tool for FASTq?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, same for me on that respect by running on Eurogenes K13 Oracle. Fully Peloponnesian (Messenia and Corinthia) and my closest group is Greek Thessalian, since no Greek Peloponnesian is included for comparison.
    Originally Posted by matadworf
    G 25 is really a questionable calculator for mainland Greeks. As someone of 100% Peloponnesian ancestry I'm oddly much closer to Central Macedonian, Thessalian samples than Peloponnesian one. We really need more samples from this region to take this calc seriously.

    @metadworf this is of course hypothetical what am i going to argue

    1.What is your dna sample?, in my case I am R1b (mainly Yamnaya before 2000 BC).. L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention...
    Attachment 11740

    2. How do you know you are 100% Peloponnesian ancestry?

    If your J2 then I might agree with you, we see all the Mycenaens samples so far J2 and G i believe...they would mainly have neolithic anatolian...

    no info if you'd be R1a or EV13

    Same for you @Demetrios


    still just a supposition

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Originally Posted by matadworf
    G 25 is really a questionable calculator for mainland Greeks. As someone of 100% Peloponnesian ancestry I'm oddly much closer to Central Macedonian, Thessalian samples than Peloponnesian one. We really need more samples from this region to take this calc seriously.

    @metadworf this is of course hypothetical what am i going to argue

    1.What is your dna sample?, in my case I am R1b (mainly Yamnaya before 2000 BC).. L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention...
    Attachment 11740

    2. How do you know you are 100% Peloponnesian ancestry?

    If your J2 then I might agree with you, we see all the Mycenaens samples so far J2 and G i believe...they would mainly have neolithic anatolian...

    no info if you'd be R1a or EV13

    Same for you @Demetrios


    still just a supposition
    What does Y-DNA have to do with autosomal data which both of the above comments pertained to? By the way, having a J2a haplogroup doesn't mean you are Peloponnesian, even though the one male Mycenaean sample that has been tested came out to be J2a1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    What does Y-DNA have to do with autosomal data which both of the above comments pertained to? By the way, having a J2a haplogroup doesn't mean you are Peloponnesian, even though the one male Mycenaean sample that has been tested came out to be J2a1.
    As mentioned its just a supposition, why is so wrong or odd if your closest to Greek Thessalian or Macedonian?

    Never said being J2a you are 100%
    Peloponnesian, I said being J2a you MIGHT be closest to Mycenaens... much more samples are needed of course from Mycenaens...

    1. If I may ask, whats your dna sample?...if your R1b L23 then it would correlate with being closest to Greek Thessalian and Macedonian based on the info given above

    2. How do you know you are fully Peloponnesian? or what does that mean if I may ask

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    What does Y-DNA have to do with autosomal data which both of the above comments pertained to? By the way, having a J2a haplogroup doesn't mean you are Peloponnesian, even though the one male Mycenaean sample that has been tested came out to be J2a1.
    People who haven't studied and analyzed all the papers just still don't get that uniparental markers can be very unreliable in terms of determining the majority of someone's ancestry.

    My father was R1b U-152, and my mtdna U2e is mostly found in Scandinavia, and yet I'm probably at the most 25% steppe. You just can't rely on these things.


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    People have problems with that. No one would guess with my autosomal of 40% English, 25% Irish, 20% German (predominantly Franconian-by this I mean the entire stem duchy of Franconia, not just the modern Bavarian region, which is just the eastern half of it, as mine comes from the west half-with some Low Saxon thrown in), 10% Sicilian (from the west end of the Island), and 5% Acadian French, that my y-haplogroup is R1a-M458. (my subclade is​ known as the "Western Cluster", but still)

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    As mentioned its just a supposition, why is so wrong or odd if your closest to Greek Thessalian or Macedonian?

    Never said being J2a you are 100%
    Peloponnesian, I said being J2a you MIGHT be closest to Mycenaens... much more samples are needed of course from Mycenaens...

    1. If I may ask, whats your dna sample?...if your R1b L23 then it would correlate with being closest to Greek Thessalian and Macedonian based on the info given above

    2. How do you know you are fully Peloponnesian? or what does that mean if I may ask
    It's not wrong to be the closest to Greek Thessalian or Greek Macedonian, it's just not rational, since all of my relatives come from Peloponnesus, and it is more probable to be sharing a closer affinity with my fellow Peloponnesians, than with my fellow Greeks further north, thus my answer to the second question as well. Furthermore, here is my K36 map, but i don't know what each box represents in the case of Greece.
    https://ibb.co/dj1ggpW
    Also, my closest modern populations (from the database that is) based on the MyTrueAncestry.com website are the following.
    https://ibb.co/MkT6qM0
    As for your first question, i haven't yet confirmed my Y-DNA haplogroup with a test, but i did upload my autosomal raw data on the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP subclade predictor and from an analysis i did with a friend, i am probably under I2a, and if i judge from an I2a FTDNA sample that is found in Messenia (same region as my father), i can very likely be under I-Y18331.
    Last, just because you might have a J2a1 Y-DNA haplogroup doesn't mean that you will be or might be close to Mycenaeans. What i am trying to say is that you shouldn't be thinking like that. Y-DNA is independent from autosomal DNA. Here is a graph to give you an idea,
    https://ibb.co/xshnj5t. You might have had the same subclade as that Mycenaean sample, have been living in the same location where this sample was found, and have a totally different autosomal profile than him. Last, we already know to whom the Mycenaean Greeks cluster the closest, and these are Sicilians, southern Italians, and Ashkenazim Jews, not Peloponnesians (even though some are close).

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    People who haven't studied and analyzed all the papers just still don't get that uniparental markers can be very unreliable in terms of determining the majority of someone's ancestry.

    My father was R1b U-152, and my mtdna U2e is mostly found in Scandinavia, and yet I'm probably at the most 25% steppe. You just can't rely on these things.
    I really do not understand your point of view.
    100 years ago, all it mattered was the paternal line, paternal father name. The wifes that my male ancestor took during their journey do not alter their path but reflect their wealth and power.
    To trace back family history y-DNA is an essential key. Multiple families formed tribes, and tribes formed modern nations. Autosomal tests tell no history.

    Check below.


    IMG_4088.jpg


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I really do not understand your point of view.
    100 years ago, all it mattered was the paternal line, paternal father name. The wifes that my male ancestor took during their journey do not alter their path but reflect their wealth and power.
    To trace back family history y-DNA is an essential key. Multiple families formed tribes, and tribes formed modern nations. Autosomal tests tell no history.

    Check below.


    IMG_4088.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Well, that makes us even, because I don't understand yours. :)

    We are discovering more and more that most of what makes us, "us", is heritable to one degree or another: not just appearance, but health, i.e. propensity to certain diseases, both physical and mental, musculature, athletic ability, intelligence, most personality traits. The percentages vary but heredity is very important in all of them.

    That heredity is transmitted through your autosomes. Yes, my father's male line ancestor arrived in Italy around 4,000 years ago from Central Europe probably, speaking a steppe language and carrying a steppe ydna. Did that make my father Ukrainian, or a steppe person or even a Central European? Imo that would be a silly conclusion. My father was Italian, and proud of it, and therefore a Southern European. Or, consider my mtDna ancestress. MtDna at least has a lot of health consequences, but in terms of cultural identity, what do I have to do with some tribal steppe woman wandering the frozen wastes of Northern Eurasia? That was a rhetorical question. :) Nothing.

    Or, take Latin America, where you can see this sort of thing more starkly. How is some Peruvian highlander who carries R1b but is 95% indigenous Amerindian supposed to see himself? Would it make sense for him to be preening himself about the conquering ability of his Iberian ancestors?

    You see something not quite as extreme but in a similar vein in our Northeastern and North-central American Indians; many of the men carry R1b, but they are majority, sometimes extreme majority Amerindian. The examples are endless. Look at the South Asians in the northwest of India.

    So, fine, the yDna may tell you the path one of your male ancestors took to arrive in your area, but the total genetic package which makes you, "you", comes from your autosomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    As mentioned its just a supposition, why is so wrong or odd if your closest to Greek Thessalian or Macedonian?

    Never said being J2a you are 100%
    Peloponnesian, I said being J2a you MIGHT be closest to Mycenaens... much more samples are needed of course from Mycenaens...

    1. If I may ask, whats your dna sample?...if your R1b L23 then it would correlate with being closest to Greek Thessalian and Macedonian based on the info given above

    2. How do you know you are fully Peloponnesian? or what does that mean if I may ask

    Because I know my lineage very well. I'm 60 years old, my parents were born in the US in 1918 (Father), and 1923 (mother). I met my grandparents and have been to all of their villages over four times since the 1970's. My paternal grandfather was born in a village called Kokinon (in the mountains near Petalidi Messinia, Peloponnese) around 1884. His wife (my paternal grandmother) was born in an adjacent village called Paneyeka (five miles from Kokinnon) around 1888. My maternal grandfather was from a village in Messinia called Aetos in 1884. His wife (my maternal grandmother) was from a village called Paleohori, Arcadia. She was born around 1888. You want any more evidence of my Peloponnesian roots?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Originally Posted by matadworf
    G 25 is really a questionable calculator for mainland Greeks. As someone of 100% Peloponnesian ancestry I'm oddly much closer to Central Macedonian, Thessalian samples than Peloponnesian one. We really need more samples from this region to take this calc seriously.

    @metadworf this is of course hypothetical what am i going to argue

    1.What is your dna sample?, in my case I am R1b (mainly Yamnaya before 2000 BC).. L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention...
    Attachment 11740

    2. How do you know you are 100% Peloponnesian ancestry?

    If your J2 then I might agree with you, we see all the Mycenaens samples so far J2 and G i believe...they would mainly have neolithic anatolian...

    no info if you'd be R1a or EV13

    Same for you @Demetrios


    still just a supposition
    My paternal haplogroup is G2a2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, that makes us even, because I don't understand yours. :)

    We are discovering more and more that most of what makes us, "us", is heritable to one degree or another: not just appearance, but health, i.e. propensity to certain diseases, both physical and mental, musculature, athletic ability, intelligence, most personality traits. The percentages vary but heredity is very important in all of them.

    That heredity is transmitted through your autosomes. Yes, my father's male line ancestor arrived in Italy around 4,000 years ago from Central Europe probably, speaking a steppe language and carrying a steppe ydna. Did that make my father Ukrainian, or a steppe person or even a Central European? Imo that would be a silly conclusion. My father was Italian, and proud of it, and therefore a Southern European. Or, consider my mtDna ancestress. MtDna at least has a lot of health consequences, but in terms of cultural identity, what do I have to do with some tribal steppe woman wandering the frozen wastes of Northern Eurasia? That was a rhetorical question. :) Nothing.

    Or, take Latin America, where you can see this sort of thing more starkly. How is some Peruvian highlander who carries R1b but is 95% indigenous Amerindian supposed to see himself? Would it make sense for him to be preening himself about the conquering ability of his Iberian ancestors?

    You see something not quite as extreme but in a similar vein in our Northeastern and North-central American Indians; many of the men carry R1b, but they are majority, sometimes extreme majority Amerindian. The examples are endless. Look at the South Asians in the northwest of India.

    So, fine, the yDna may tell you the path one of your male ancestors took to arrive in your area, but the total genetic package which makes you, "you", comes from your autosomes.
    I thought the discussion was Dna to be used as a tool to validate history.

    My y-Dna tells me the following:

    The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    People who haven't studied and analyzed all the papers just still don't get that uniparental markers can be very unreliable in terms of determining the majority of someone's ancestry.

    My father was R1b U-152, and my mtdna U2e is mostly found in Scandinavia, and yet I'm probably at the most 25% steppe. You just can't rely on these things.
    My suppositions were only based on Ydna and not autosomal, I may have not noted that but basically all my assumptions were not related from the autosomal data given here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    It's not wrong to be the closest to Greek Thessalian or Greek Macedonian, it's just not rational, since all of my relatives come from Peloponnesus, and it is more probable to be sharing a closer affinity with my fellow Peloponnesians, than with my fellow Greeks further north, thus my answer to the second question as well. Furthermore, here is my K36 map, but i don't know what each box represents in the case of Greece.
    https://ibb.co/dj1ggpW
    Also, my closest modern populations (from the database that is) based on the MyTrueAncestry.com website are the following.
    https://ibb.co/MkT6qM0
    As for your first question, i haven't yet confirmed my Y-DNA haplogroup with a test, but i did upload my autosomal raw data on the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP subclade predictor and from an analysis i did with a friend, i am probably under I2a, and if i judge from an I2a FTDNA sample that is found in Messenia (same region as my father), i can very likely be under I-Y18331.
    Last, just because you might have a J2a1 Y-DNA haplogroup doesn't mean that you will be or might be close to Mycenaeans. What i am trying to say is that you shouldn't be thinking like that. Y-DNA is independent from autosomal DNA. Here is a graph to give you an idea,
    https://ibb.co/xshnj5t. You might have had the same subclade as that Mycenaean sample, have been living in the same location where this sample was found, and have a totally different autosomal profile than him. Last, we already know to whom the Mycenaean Greeks cluster the closest, and these are Sicilians, southern Italians, and Ashkenazim Jews, not Peloponnesians (even though some are close).
    With all due respect, since your all close relatives being Peloponnesus, we are talking here for 2000 BC, how many generations you know for sure that your relatives were Peloponnesus?... if you know for sure that all your relatives were 4 thousands years before than I truly BELIEVE you...
    Still all my assumptions were only based considering Ydna and not autosomal data, so considering this i was making this point " IF you are L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention..."

    So this is a supposition ONLY if your L23, therefore i noted that its nothing odd for you having your relatives descended from Macedonia or close by regions...

    As per other Y-DNA haplogroup I DONT know....So i guess you should confirm you Ydna test then...


    LAstly as per J2a, I understand that
    Y-DNA is independent from autosomal, thats why all my assumptions has nothing to do or considered from autosomal data, still we have very few samples from Mycenaeans therefore many more are needed, and surely Mycenaeans had other Ydna haplogroups...

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    With all due respect, since your all close relatives being Peloponnesus, we are talking here for 2000 BC, how many generations you know for sure that your relatives were Peloponnesus?... if you know for sure that all your relatives were 4 thousands years before than I truly BELIEVE you...
    Still all my assumptions were only based considering Ydna and not autosomal data, so considering this i was making this point " IF you are L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention..."

    So this is a supposition ONLY if your L23, therefore i noted that its nothing odd for you having your relatives descended from Macedonia or close by regions...

    As per other Y-DNA haplogroup I DONT know....So i guess you should confirm you Ydna test then...


    LAstly as per J2a, I understand that
    Y-DNA is independent from autosomal, thats why all my assumptions has nothing to do or considered from autosomal data, still we have very few samples from Mycenaeans therefore many more are needed, and surely Mycenaeans had other Ydna haplogroups...
    My friend, you are losing the ball here. We are not discussing ancient autosomal affinity, but modern, thus it is more rational to be sharing a closer autosomal affinity with my fellow modern Peloponnesians (taking into account the several generations back that i can trace all of my family in the Peloponnese), than with my fellow modern Greeks further north. The aforementioned autosomal affinity we are discussing is based on a database of modern samples (with all their additional admixtures since antiquity), not ancient ones.

    You are confusing again haplogroup/subclade with autosomal affinity, they are two different things. Even if you are descended let's say from a Bronze Age individual that belonged to R1b-L23, his descendants would have intermingled to such an extent over the numerous millennia with their local gene pool, thus neutralizing their particular autosomal profile with that of the rest of their local population. In a few words, it doesn't really matter which haplogroup/subclade you might belong to in terms of autosomal ancestry, since your autosomal profile will most likely be similar with your neighbor next door, who might belong to G2a, than with a fellow R1b-L23 hundreds/thousands of kilometers away who could even belong to a different ethnic and/or racial group than you. As for the migratory route and date of R1b-L23 in the Balkans and Greece, i am not familiar with the story you mention bearing in mind that i am not familiar with any ancient sample that compliments this story.

    By the way, since you associate R1b-L23 with Macedonia (Greece). Macedonia (Greece), just as with any other place in the world, usually has a big or a small variety of different haplogroups and subclades. In the case of Macedonia (Greece) the R1b haplogroup as a whole, forget subclades, amounts to approximately 13% of the total male population. Do you see now how irrational it is to be associating haplogroups/subclades with autosomal affinity, when even a single population or sub-population group usually has more than one haplogroup and subclade to begin with, let alone the autosomal aspect i aforementioned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Because I know my lineage very well. I'm 60 years old, my parents were born in the US in 1918 (Father), and 1923 (mother). I met my grandparents and have been to all of their villages over four times since the 1970's. My paternal grandfather was born in a village called Kokinon (in the mountains near Petalidi Messinia, Peloponnese) around 1884. His wife (my paternal grandmother) was born in an adjacent village called Paneyeka (five miles from Kokinnon) around 1888. My maternal grandfather was from a village in Messinia called Aetos in 1884. His wife (my maternal grandmother) was from a village called Paleohori, Arcadia. She was born around 1888. You want any more evidence of my Peloponnesian roots?
    With all due respect and to your age, I never questioned your Peleponnesian roots, however we are talking here for 2000 BC, how many generations you know for sure that your relatives were Peloponnesus?... if you know for sure that all your relatives were 4 thousands years before than I truly BELIEVE you...

    Still all my assumptions were only based considering Ydna and not autosomal data, so considering this i was making this point " IF you are
    L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention..."

    So still it would be nothing odd about you being more closest to Macedonia because people move around as always and I dont see anything wrong about your relatives in 1500 BC migrated from those regions of current North Macedonia to Peloponnesus.
    Still its just a supposition...

    BUT, since you are G2a2a, wow thats interesting, and we know how low is this haplogroup for current modern Greeks and so to the other groups of people from the surrounding area, I dont have a comment here...but might say that you roots might tell something like really really OLD from that surrounding areas including
    Peloponnesus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    My friend, you are losing the ball here. We are not discussing ancient autosomal affinity, but modern, thus it is more rational to be sharing a closer autosomal affinity with my fellow modern Peloponnesians (taking into account the several generations back that i can trace all of my family in the Peloponnese), than with my fellow modern Greeks further north. The aforementioned autosomal affinity we are discussing is based on a database of modern samples (with all their additional admixtures since antiquity), not ancient ones.

    You are confusing again haplogroup/subclade with autosomal affinity, they are two different things. Even if you are descended let's say from a Bronze Age individual that belonged to R1b-L23, his descendants would have intermingled to such an extent over the numerous millennia with their local gene pool, thus neutralizing their particular autosomal profile with that of the rest of their local population. In a few words, it doesn't really matter which haplogroup/subclade you might belong to in terms of autosomal ancestry, since your autosomal profile will most likely be similar with your neighbor next door, who might belong to G2a, than with a fellow R1b-L23 hundreds/thousands of kilometers away who could even belong to a different ethnic and/or racial group than you. As for the migratory route and date of R1b-L23 in the Balkans and Greece, i am not familiar with the story you mention bearing in mind that i am not familiar with any ancient sample that compliments this story.

    By the way, since you associate R1b-L23 with Macedonia (Greece). Macedonia (Greece), just as with any other place in the world, usually has a big or a small variety of different haplogroups and subclades. In the case of Macedonia (Greece) the R1b haplogroup as a whole, forget subclades, amounts to approximately 13% of the total male population. Do you see now how irrational it is to be associating haplogroups/subclades with autosomal affinity, when even a single population or sub-population group usually has more than one haplogroup and subclade to begin with, let alone the autosomal aspect i aforementioned?
    I think you are not understanding my point/supposition, disregard modern or ancient autosomal affinity FULLY, I was talking ONLY for the migratory route (based on my assumptions, Maciamo hypothesis, and the research below) and date of R1b-L23 from 1500 BC.

    Attachment 11745
    The source were spread goes from central balkans (dont know the date): https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/

    @Maciamo argued:
    ''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
    He also mentioned "Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion, thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE" unquote.

    So Maciamo's hypotheses CORRELATES with the study above and it's pretty close as ON THE ABOVE MAP.

    I only supposed if you are into that current 13% of male
    R1b-L23 then you might descend from 1500 BC from the area of current north Macedonia and north Albania, and 3000 BC ago you might have descend from current surroundings of Ukraine (Pontic Steppe)


    Source from:
    Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018).

    https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/

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    Autosomal tests look at the totality of our DNA and can paint a much broader picture of us than limited uni-parental tests. In the southern Balkans, specifically Greece and Albania, it seems clear that there are more Anatolia Neolithic farmer genes than certain other nearby places. In Greece, the language and culture survived or was reintroduced in certain parts. It is said to have happened relatively quickly after the medieval Slavic invasions. It seems like no surprise that Greek and Albanian survived while other parts of the Balkans became Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    I think you are not understanding my point/supposition, disregard modern or ancient autosomal affinity FULLY, I was talking ONLY for the migratory route (based on my assumptions, Maciamo hypothesis, and the research below) and date of R1b-L23 from 1500 BC.

    Attachment 11745
    The source were spread goes from central balkans (dont know the date): https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/

    @Maciamo argued:
    ''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
    He also mentioned "Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion, thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE" unquote.

    So Maciamo's hypotheses CORRELATES with the study above and it's pretty close as ON THE ABOVE MAP.

    I only supposed if you are into that current 13% of male
    R1b-L23 then you might descend from 1500 BC from the area of current north Macedonia and north Albania, and 3000 BC ago you might have descend from current surroundings of Ukraine (Pontic Steppe)


    Source from:
    Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018).

    https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/
    Hm

    Can you give an ancient sample of R1b found in Hellenic and Minoan-Mycenean world?
    or at least in S Balkans?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I thought the discussion was Dna to be used as a tool to validate history.

    My y-Dna tells me the following:

    The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.




    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    I agree that uniparentals are good for tracing migration paths. The fact that my father was U-152 confirms, as ancient dna also now confirms, that a y line originating somewhere in far eastern Europe, and carrying some amount of ANE and EHG, at some point arrived in Italy, and that those people contributed to his ancestry, autosomal as well as yline, along with, of course, autosomal contributions of people with much different y lines.

    The same actually goes for my mtdna.

    I'm not about to go identifying with Central Europeans or French people who have U152, or Northern Europeans who have mtDna U2e.

    What you are ignoring is all the dna passed down to you from all of the women in your history, as well as all the non direct y line men.

    Perhaps what you're doing is trying to distinguish yourself from the peoples around you through yDna, or lay claim to certain lands through it. The first won't work, imo,because in total similarity you're not all that different, since that yDna is 2% of what you are, and the second is dangerous, and, in my opinion, meaningless.

    You have a very "tribal" way of thinking, it seems to me. Perhaps you think that a "tribe" of people carrying certain y lines arrived in your area and Albanians are completely descended from them. I highly doubt that. Since at least the Neolithic the Balkans weren't empty. Any group arriving mingled its genes with those of the prior inhabitants. There's no "pure" tribe or group of people. We're all products of endless mixing, albeit with long periods of stasis in between.

    People who think in "tribal" terms pick a period, a group, and completely define themselves by that group and its uniparental markers. I think that's a very illogical and also dangerous way to look at the world. The world functions much better without tribalism, imo. Look at Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east, and Africa.

    But hey, I'm not here to lecture you; you'll do as you wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Hm

    Can you give an ancient sample of R1b found in Hellenic and Minoan-Mycenean world?
    or at least in S Balkans?
    Albeit rare, my haplogroup is actually one of them:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Autosomal tests look at the totality of our DNA and can paint a much broader picture of us than limited uni-parental tests. In the southern Balkans, specifically Greece and Albania, it seems clear that there are more Anatolia Neolithic farmer genes than certain other nearby places. In Greece, the language and culture survived or was reintroduced in certain parts. It is said to have happened relatively quickly after the medieval Slavic invasions. It seems like no surprise that Greek and Albanian survived while other parts of the Balkans became Slavic.
    They didn't become "Slavic"; they became Slavic speaking, and they have a bit more "Slavic" ancestry, but not by much. People keep ignoring the high levels in the rest of the Balkans of what the old calculators sometimes called West Asian, or Caucasian. They also undeniably have more EEF than actual "Slavic" people like Poles and Russians.

    The "Slavic" identity of these peoples is a product of 19th century politics imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree that uniparentals are good for tracing migration paths. The fact that my father was U-152 confirms, as ancient dna also now confirms, that a y line originating somewhere in far eastern Europe, and carrying some amount of ANE and EHG, at some point arrived in Italy, and that those people contributed to his ancestry, autosomal as well as yline, along with, of course, autosomal contributions of people with much different y lines.

    The same actually goes for my mtdna.

    I'm not about to go identifying with Central Europeans or French people who have U152, or Northern Europeans who have mtDna U2e.

    What you are ignoring is all the dna passed down to you from all of the women in your history, as well as all the non direct y line men.

    Perhaps what you're doing is trying to distinguish yourself from the peoples around you through yDna, or lay claim to certain lands through it. The first won't work, imo,because in total similarity you're not all that different, since that yDna is 2% of what you are, and the second is dangerous, and, in my opinion, meaningless.

    You have a very "tribal" way of thinking, it seems to me. Perhaps you think that a "tribe" of people carrying certain y lines arrived in your area and Albanians are completely descended from them. I highly doubt that. Since at least the Neolithic the Balkans weren't empty. Any group arriving mingled its genes with those of the prior inhabitants. There's no "pure" tribe or group of people. We're all products of endless mixing, albeit with long periods of stasis in between.

    People who think in "tribal" terms pick a period, a group, and completely define themselves by that group and its uniparental markers. I think that's a very illogical and also dangerous way to look at the world. The world functions much better without tribalism, imo. Look at Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east, and Africa.

    But hey, I'm not here to lecture you; you'll do as you wish.
    If you want to learn which current populations you are genetically most similar to, autosomal tests are the right choice, but in terms of ancestry beyond 500 years ago they do not say much. You might get a farmer vs pastorialist percentage but you gain almost no knowledge about how you received this ancestry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The "Slavic" identity of these peoples is a product of 19th century politics imo.
    South Slavs are just as much Slavic as West and East Slavs. They speak the same language group, they have very similar traditions, folklore, had the same pagan religion until Christianization, had the same social structures and even similar professions. If anything, it is affinity with local Balkan peoples which is relatively new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    I think you are not understanding my point/supposition, disregard modern or ancient autosomal affinity FULLY, I was talking ONLY for the migratory route (based on my assumptions, Maciamo hypothesis, and the research below) and date of R1b-L23 from 1500 BC.

    Attachment 11745
    The source were spread goes from central balkans (dont know the date): https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/

    @Maciamo argued:
    ''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
    He also mentioned "Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion, thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE" unquote.

    So Maciamo's hypotheses CORRELATES with the study above and it's pretty close as ON THE ABOVE MAP.

    I only supposed if you are into that current 13% of male
    R1b-L23 then you might descend from 1500 BC from the area of current north Macedonia and north Albania, and 3000 BC ago you might have descend from current surroundings of Ukraine (Pontic Steppe)


    Source from:
    Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018).

    https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/
    I am understanding you perfectly and i disagree with the parallelization of Y-DNA and atDNA (autosomal), even if it is just a supposition.

    Furthermore, Maciamo wrote that R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)
    was the first branch of R1b that emerged from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. Pretty much what the Eupedia respective article on R1b writes. Nonetheless even if highest frequency of R1b-M269 (xL23) is found today in Kosovo, North Macedonia and Serbia, this shouldn't be taken as a certainty for antiquity without any Bronze Age samples from the central Balkans to back it up. Of course for most of the R1b-M269 (xL23) that is found in Greece it is only rational to conclude that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia), that goes without saying. But again, all these are unrelated to autosomal DNA, and Peloponnesian autosomal DNA for that matter. All Peloponnesians generally seem to cluster close to each other, with the notable exception of Maniots (Deep-Mani, East Taygetos, West Taygetos) and Tsakonians (South Tsakonia, North Tsakonia), both of whom represent more conservative Peloponnesian populations with minor Slavic influence, hence their diffusion in the following PCA, taken from this paper, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718.

    As aforementioned for both my case and the case of @matadworf, since all of our family members originate from the Peloponnese for several generations back, and from regions outside Mani and Tsakonia, it would be rational to share the closest autosomal affinity with other fellow Peloponnesians, if such a group was included in the aforementioned autosomal calculators (Eurogenes K13 Oracle, etc.). But it isn't included. That was the initial point we expressed.

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree that uniparentals are good for tracing migration paths. The fact that my father was U-152 confirms, as ancient dna also now confirms, that a y line originating somewhere in far eastern Europe, and carrying some amount of ANE and EHG, at some point arrived in Italy, and that those people contributed to his ancestry, autosomal as well as yline, along with, of course, autosomal contributions of people with much different y lines.

    The same actually goes for my mtdna.

    I'm not about to go identifying with Central Europeans or French people who have U152, or Northern Europeans who have mtDna U2e.

    What you are ignoring is all the dna passed down to you from all of the women in your history, as well as all the non direct y line men.

    Perhaps what you're doing is trying to distinguish yourself from the peoples around you through yDna, or lay claim to certain lands through it. The first won't work, imo,because in total similarity you're not all that different, since that yDna is 2% of what you are, and the second is dangerous, and, in my opinion, meaningless.

    You have a very "tribal" way of thinking, it seems to me. Perhaps you think that a "tribe" of people carrying certain y lines arrived in your area and Albanians are completely descended from them. I highly doubt that. Since at least the Neolithic the Balkans weren't empty. Any group arriving mingled its genes with those of the prior inhabitants. There's no "pure" tribe or group of people. We're all products of endless mixing, albeit with long periods of stasis in between.

    People who think in "tribal" terms pick a period, a group, and completely define themselves by that group and its uniparental markers. I think that's a very illogical and also dangerous way to look at the world. The world functions much better without tribalism, imo. Look at Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle east, and Africa.

    But hey, I'm not here to lecture you; you'll do as you wish.
    No way, you are say things that I never said or inferred. I never expressed what is better nor concluded in any sense of purity.

    Again, the questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "When”. It is important to consider the tribal way of life to understand how different culture evolved to what they are today. For Albanians the tribal way of life was crucial to persevere their identity in the past and create an Indo-europian subculture.

    There is no need for you to try to profile me. It is not related to the topic.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Last edited by blevins13; 16-01-20 at 09:47.

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