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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #1926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post

    Furthermore, Maciamo wrote that R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)
    was the first branch of R1b that emerged from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. Pretty much what the Eupedia respective article on R1b writes. Nonetheless even if highest frequency of R1b-M269 (xL23) is found today in Kosovo, North Macedonia and Serbia, this shouldn't be taken as a certainty for antiquity without any Bronze Age samples from the central Balkans to back it up. Of course for most of the R1b-M269 (xL23) that is found in Greece it is only rational to conclude that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia), that goes without saying.

    Well yes pretty much what Maciamo and Eupedia argues about R1b since he is admin i think lol, so I would rather support more something from him or the study mentioned above that you agreeing or not, and I dont think you are using that much studies to begin with..

    Then you mention "
    that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia)".. east Anatolia? from what studies are you this or its just your supposition?


    You might find this YET another study interesting below:
    Sea Peoples behind Philistines were Aegeans, including R1b-M269 lineages

    Palaeo-Balkan populations
    We know that R1b-Z2103 expanded with Yamna, including West Yamna settlers: they appear in Vučedol, which means they formed part of the earliest expansion waves of Yamna settlers into the Carpathian Basin, and they also appear scattered among Bell Beakers (apart from dominating East Yamna and Afanasevo), which suggests that they were possibly one of the most successful lineages during the late Repin/early Yamna expansion.

    Greeks and haplogroup R1b-M269

    Therefore, while the presence of R1b-Z2103 among ancient Balkan peoples connected to the Yamna expansion is clear, one might ask if R1b-Z2103 really spread up to the Peloponnese by the time of the Mycenaean Civilization. That has only one indirect answer, and it’s most likely yes.
    We already had some R1b-Z2103 among Thracians and around the Armenoid homeland, which offers another clue at the migration of these lineages from the Balkans. The distribution of different “archaic” R1b-Z2103 subclades among modern Balkan populations and around the Aegean offered more support to this conclusion.
    But now we have two interesting ancient populations that bear witness to the likely intrusion of R1b-M269 with Proto-Greeks:

    A single ancient sample supports the increase in R1b-Z2103 among Greeks during the “Dorian” invasions that triggered the Dark Ages and the phenomenon of the Aegean Sea Peoples. It comes from a Greek lab study, showing R1b1b (i.e. R1b-P297 in the old nomenclature) as the only Y-chromosome haplogroup obtained from the sampling of the Gulf of Amurakia ca. 470-30 BC, i.e. before the Roman foundation of Nikopolis, hence from people likely from Anaktorion in Ancient Acarnania, of Corinthian origin.

    Even with the few data available – and with the caution necessary for this kind of studies from non-established labs, which may be subject to many different kinds of errors – one could argue that the western Greek areas, which received different waves of migrants from the north and shows a higher distribution of R1b-Z2103 in modern times, was probably more heavily admixed with R1b-Z2103 than southern and eastern areas, which were always dominated by Greek-speaking populations more heavily admixed with locals.
    The Dorian invasion and the Greek Dark Ages may thus account for a renewed influx of R1b-Z2103 lineages accompanying the dialects that would eventually help form the Hellenic Koiné. In a sense, it is only natural that demographically stronger populations around the Bronze Age Aegean would suffer a limited (male) population replacement with the succeeding invasions, starting with a higher genetic impact in the north-west and diminishing as they progressed to the south and the east, coupled with stepped admixture events with local populations.

    Sea peoples of hg. R1b-M269

    Thanks to Wang et al. (2018) supplementary materials we knew that one of the two Levantine LBA II samples from Tel Shadud (final 13th–early 11th c. BC) published in van den Brink (2017) was of hg. R1b-M269 – in fact, the one interpreted as a Canaanite official residing at this site and emulating selected funerary aspects of Egyptian mortuary culture.


    Conclusion

    Even more interesting than these specific findings, this paper confirms yet another hypothesis based on phylogeography, and proves once again two important starting points for ancient DNA interpretation that I have discussed extensively in this blog:

    • The rare R1b-M269 Y-chromosome lineage of Tel Shadud offered ipso facto the most relevant clue about the ancestral geographical origin of this Canaanite elite male’s paternal family, most likely from the north-west based on ancient phylogeography, which indirectly – in combination with linguistics and archaeology – supported the ancestral ethnolinguistic identification of Philistines with the Aegean and thus with (a population closest to) Ancient Greeks.




    https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/sea...m269-lineages/

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    With all due respect and to your age, I never questioned your Peleponnesian roots, however we are talking here for 2000 BC, how many generations you know for sure that your relatives were Peloponnesus?... if you know for sure that all your relatives were 4 thousands years before than I truly BELIEVE you...

    Still all my assumptions were only based considering Ydna and not autosomal data, so considering this i was making this point " IF you are
    L23 and from what I have read so far L23 was spread around 1500 BC from current north Macedonia north Albania and far south Serbia...
    So if your L23 then it might be accurate that you would be closer to Central Macedonian as you mention..."

    So still it would be nothing odd about you being more closest to Macedonia because people move around as always and I dont see anything wrong about your relatives in 1500 BC migrated from those regions of current North Macedonia to Peloponnesus.
    Still its just a supposition...

    BUT, since you are G2a2a, wow thats interesting, and we know how low is this haplogroup for current modern Greeks and so to the other groups of people from the surrounding area, I dont have a comment here...but might say that you roots might tell something like really really OLD from that surrounding areas including
    Peloponnesus
    We've established that our paternal line has been in Messinia for (at least) the last 500 years. There are two options garnered from personal research and historical analysis; 1) This line has been in Greece since the Neolithic and/or 2) brought to Greece from Italy during a Byzantine population exchange (which may be a stretch). I tend to lean towards the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    We've established that our paternal line has been in Messinia for (at least) the last 500 years. There are two options garnered from personal research and historical analysis; 1) This line has been in Greece since the Neolithic and/or 2) brought to Greece from Italy during a Byzantine population exchange (which may be a stretch). I tend to lean towards the former.
    Messina was the last stop for all navies..... on the way to transporting troops for the crusades .............all crusaders from Europe went there to board the ships and be taken to the levant..........you could be anybody from any place in europe
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Messina was the last stop for all navies..... on the way to transporting troops for the crusades .............all crusaders from Europe went there to board the ships and be taken to the levant..........you could be anybody from any place in europe
    Venetians and Franks in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Albeit rare, my haplogroup is actually one of them:


    Still no answer,

    In Minoan-Mycenean, Hellenic, and generally in S Balkans, no R1b ever found in far ancient world.
    and will never be found, I guess,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  6. #1931
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Still no answer,

    In Minoan-Mycenean, Hellenic, and generally in S Balkans, no R1b ever found in far ancient world.
    and will never be found, I guess,
    And will never be found?..DUDE what is that WRONG with this haplogroup that you wish so much that it will never be found?...this is really funny, there are no populations south balkans, north east, west ANYWHERE that they would not have at least some of all the haplogroups we usually mention...

    As per samples check the study above, there are some samples of M269 (late bronze) in Thracia and as far as I know that is indeed South Balkans
    Attachment 11748

    in 2017 there was another Z2130 (bronze age) on around today Croatia I think, not S balkans but on balkans for sure...

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post

    Well yes pretty much what Maciamo and Eupedia argues about R1b since he is admin i think lol, so I would rather support more something from him or the study mentioned above that you agreeing or not, and I dont think you are using that much studies to begin with..

    Then you mention "
    that it came either from the north (Balkans) or the east (Anatolia)".. east Anatolia? from what studies are you this or its just your supposition?


    You might find this YET another study interesting below:
    Sea Peoples behind Philistines were Aegeans, including R1b-M269 lineages

    Palaeo-Balkan populations
    We know that R1b-Z2103 expanded with Yamna, including West Yamna settlers: they appear in Vučedol, which means they formed part of the earliest expansion waves of Yamna settlers into the Carpathian Basin, and they also appear scattered among Bell Beakers (apart from dominating East Yamna and Afanasevo), which suggests that they were possibly one of the most successful lineages during the late Repin/early Yamna expansion.

    Greeks and haplogroup R1b-M269

    Therefore, while the presence of R1b-Z2103 among ancient Balkan peoples connected to the Yamna expansion is clear, one might ask if R1b-Z2103 really spread up to the Peloponnese by the time of the Mycenaean Civilization. That has only one indirect answer, and it’s most likely yes.
    We already had some R1b-Z2103 among Thracians and around the Armenoid homeland, which offers another clue at the migration of these lineages from the Balkans. The distribution of different “archaic” R1b-Z2103 subclades among modern Balkan populations and around the Aegean offered more support to this conclusion.
    But now we have two interesting ancient populations that bear witness to the likely intrusion of R1b-M269 with Proto-Greeks:

    A single ancient sample supports the increase in R1b-Z2103 among Greeks during the “Dorian” invasions that triggered the Dark Ages and the phenomenon of the Aegean Sea Peoples. It comes from a Greek lab study, showing R1b1b (i.e. R1b-P297 in the old nomenclature) as the only Y-chromosome haplogroup obtained from the sampling of the Gulf of Amurakia ca. 470-30 BC, i.e. before the Roman foundation of Nikopolis, hence from people likely from Anaktorion in Ancient Acarnania, of Corinthian origin.

    Even with the few data available – and with the caution necessary for this kind of studies from non-established labs, which may be subject to many different kinds of errors – one could argue that the western Greek areas, which received different waves of migrants from the north and shows a higher distribution of R1b-Z2103 in modern times, was probably more heavily admixed with R1b-Z2103 than southern and eastern areas, which were always dominated by Greek-speaking populations more heavily admixed with locals.
    The Dorian invasion and the Greek Dark Ages may thus account for a renewed influx of R1b-Z2103 lineages accompanying the dialects that would eventually help form the Hellenic Koiné. In a sense, it is only natural that demographically stronger populations around the Bronze Age Aegean would suffer a limited (male) population replacement with the succeeding invasions, starting with a higher genetic impact in the north-west and diminishing as they progressed to the south and the east, coupled with stepped admixture events with local populations.

    Sea peoples of hg. R1b-M269

    Thanks to Wang et al. (2018) supplementary materials we knew that one of the two Levantine LBA II samples from Tel Shadud (final 13th–early 11th c. BC) published in van den Brink (2017) was of hg. R1b-M269 – in fact, the one interpreted as a Canaanite official residing at this site and emulating selected funerary aspects of Egyptian mortuary culture.


    Conclusion

    Even more interesting than these specific findings, this paper confirms yet another hypothesis based on phylogeography, and proves once again two important starting points for ancient DNA interpretation that I have discussed extensively in this blog:

    • The rare R1b-M269 Y-chromosome lineage of Tel Shadud offered ipso facto the most relevant clue about the ancestral geographical origin of this Canaanite elite male’s paternal family, most likely from the north-west based on ancient phylogeography, which indirectly – in combination with linguistics and archaeology – supported the ancestral ethnolinguistic identification of Philistines with the Aegean and thus with (a population closest to) Ancient Greeks.




    https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/sea...m269-lineages/
    As a sidenote, i thought Maciamo was just an administrator in the forum, i didn't know he contributed to the articles of Eupedia as well. Now i see he founded Eupedia. In any case, i didn't see Maciamo parallelizing Y-DNA to atDNA (autosomal) like you did in your previous comments, therefore why would i disagree with Maciamo? I just wrote the following, "this shouldn't be taken as a certainty for antiquity without any Bronze Age samples from the central Balkans to back it up.". What's wrong with that? Maciamo would agree with that notion as well.

    Second, i didn't ask for R1b-M269 samples from Iron Age Greece and Philistia. I am already aware of all these studies and samples you mention. I asked for R1b-M269 samples from the Bronze Age central Balkans which i haven't seen yet. Furthermore, i also follow Carlos Quiles of Indo-European.eu, you didn't have to paste all these.

    Regarding the northern (Balkans) and eastern (Anatolia) entrance of R1b-M269 in the Greek peninsula, yes it is a hypothesis as with most Bronze Age related discussion. It also ties on with the hypotheses concerning the entrance of the Graeco-Phrygian IE branch (and subsequent proto-Greek) in the Greek peninsula, with some suggesting a northern Balkanic route, while others an eastern Anatolian route. The respective Eupedia article on R1b includes a segment of the Anatolian branch, which i am sure you have read,
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Anatolian. Nonetheless, the fact that most of R1b-M269 that is found today in Greece, belongs to Balkanic subclades, can be seen as additional corroboration of the Balkanic hypothesis. But, questions such as, "when did the Greek clades reach Greece", "where did they enter from", etc, require the respective Early/Middle/Late Bronze Age samples in order to reach safe conclusions. For example, that Philistian R1b-M269 (likely R1b-Z2103) sample suggests that it could likewise be very common among Mycenaeans and that it didn't peak in southern Greece during the Bronze Age collapse with the arrival of Dorian Greeks. Last, the region from which the Dorians began their migration southwards sometime around the Bronze Age collapse, ties on with the proto-Greek region that has been discussed a couple of pages back. Indeed it seems to be the region of north-western Greece, including parts of southern Albania and western Macedonia (Greece), not the central Balkans nor even North Macedonia. Phrygians/Brygians most likely encompassed much of the region that lied between the Greek-speaking world and the central Balkans during the Bronze Age, namely before their exodus to Anatolia due to being stressed by migrants from the north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I asked for R1b-M269 samples from the Bronze Age central Balkans which i haven't seen yet.
    Not sure if everyone would consider this as Central Balkan, but sample 13499 from Beli Manastir, Croatia, was R-Z2103+. The sample belonged to the Vucedol Culture and was dated back to 2,884-2,666 BCE, so the Early Bronze Age.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Not sure if everyone would consider this as Central Balkan, but sample 13499 from Beli Manastir, Croatia, was R-Z2103+. The sample belonged to the Vucedol Culture and was dated back to 2,884-2,666 BCE, so the Early Bronze Age.
    He did mention it above my last comment, but that is not central Balkans. The Vučedol culture is a north-western EBA Balkan culture, which seems to have had ties with Greece, such as trading relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. As has been mentioned again a couple of pages ago, some even suggest that the intermediary stop of the Graeco-Phrygians could have been the Vučedol culture (much of Hungary, Bosnia, Croatia...), among others hypotheses such as Ezero (Bulgaria basically), Coţofeni (West Vallachia, NW Bulgaria, Transylvania), etc.., in a Balkanic context. That though, doesn't suggest that most of the Greek R1b-Z2103 was either Doric Greek, or that it came from the central Balkans during the Late Bronze Age.

    But aside of all these, since we have that Philistian R1b-M269 (likely R1b-Z2103) sample, it is suggestive that it could likewise be very common among Mycenaeans and that it didn't peak in southern Greece during the Bronze Age collapse with the arrival of Dorian Greeks. Also, take note that R1b-Z2103 peaks in regions of the former Mycenaean civilization (Peloponnese, Attica, Cyclades), and concerning Magna Graecia, in regions that were colonized mainly by Achaeans (descendants of that Mycenaean civilization), namely Calabria, as seen in this map,
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg/638px-Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg.png. Not the Dorian regions of Apulia and southern Sicily. That is additional corroboration to suggest that R1b-Z2103 could essentially be an Achaean common haplogroup, not a Doric one, in a Greek context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Venetians and Franks in particular.
    yes for franks , they would have been brought to the levant using Genoese or Pisan ships ............and no for venetians, venice went directly to the levant with their ships

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    He did mention it above my last comment, but that is not central Balkans. The Vučedol culture is a north-western EBA Balkan culture, which seems to have had ties with Greece, such as trading relations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture#Trade_with_other_cultures. As has been mentioned again a couple of pages ago, some even suggest that the intermediary stop of the Graeco-Phrygians could have been the Vučedol culture (much of Hungary, Bosnia, Croatia...), among others hypotheses such as Ezero (Bulgaria basically), Coţofeni (West Vallachia, NW Bulgaria, Transylvania), etc.., in a Balkanic context. That though, doesn't suggest that most of the Greek R1b-Z2103 was either Doric Greek, or that it came from the central Balkans during the Late Bronze Age.

    But aside of all these, since we have that Philistian R1b-M269 (likely R1b-Z2103) sample, it is suggestive that it could likewise be very common among Mycenaeans and that it didn't peak in southern Greece during the Bronze Age collapse with the arrival of Dorian Greeks. Also, take note that R1b-Z2103 peaks in regions of the former Mycenaean civilization (Peloponnese, Attica, Cyclades), and concerning Magna Graecia, in regions that were colonized mainly by Achaeans (descendants of that Mycenaean civilization), namely Calabria, as seen in this map,
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg/638px-Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects-en.svg.png. Not the Dorian regions of Apulia and southern Sicily. That is additional corroboration to suggest that R1b-Z2103 could essentially be an Achaean common haplogroup, not a Doric one, in a Greek context.
    What regions exactly do you consider as Central Balkan? The eastern half of Slavonia in Croatia could be considered somewhat Central Balkan geographically, but then again it could also be considered as a part of the Western Balkans.

    Some of the Z2103 in Greeks does come from later migrations from further north. A branch that comes into mind is Z2705 which is closesly associated with the Proto-Albanians and Albanian expansion as a whole. The presence of Z2705 in Greece can be attributed to the Albanian (Arvanite) migrations during the Medieval. Not sure what percentage of Greek Z2103 is Z2705+, but a rather considerable amount does seem to be as such.
    Then there are also older clades that could be associated with the Proto-Greeks, such as clades under L584. Armenians also have high percentages of L584, possibly confirming the connection between Greeks and Armenians that has been theorised by linguists. The problem is that Greeks rarely do NGS tests which makes it difficult to understand what haplogroups or branches can confidently be called "Greek" or "Hellenic". Future aDNA will clear things up I think.

    Should also note that one of the Mycenaean samples have been classified as R-Z2103 according to one aDNA map that I have found. The sample has been labelled as "MycenaeanElite" and is dated back to 1,500 BCE. Not too sure if the classification is accurate though. https://indo-european.eu/ancient_dna...ree/index.html

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    You are right, most Greeks that live in Greece could care less about genetics in general and haplogroups in particular. They could not see themselves spending $500 to find out the subclade they belong to. It is not important to them. The Greeks that you see in this forum are the minutest exceptions. Now if some research group offers to do these tests for free, then it would be OK. Take me, I did a test with Living DNA that included a haplogroup test. It labeled me as R1b M-269. Morley's has me as L-23. I am really not interested in paying big money to find out which subclade I belong to if any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    And will never be found?..DUDE what is that WRONG with this haplogroup that you wish so much that it will never be found?...this is really funny, there are no populations south balkans, north east, west ANYWHERE that they would not have at least some of all the haplogroups we usually mention...

    As per samples check the study above, there are some samples of M269 (late bronze) in Thracia and as far as I know that is indeed South Balkans
    Attachment 11748

    in 2017 there was another Z2130 (bronze age) on around today Croatia I think, not S balkans but on balkans for sure...
    ha?

    dude,
    I have nothing with any Hg,
    simply, look at the forum posts,
    most R1b carriers, try to connect it with Mycenean, Hellenic etc world,
    Yet no result.
    Yes modern Greece has, quite a lot, but not ancient world,

    I still do not understand the effort of some people in this Forum to connect all ancient pre-Greek and Greek populations with R1b.
    can you explain this to me?

    Croatia offcourse, Romania offcourse, Serbia, Hungary, Bosnia offcourse,
    about this you say,
    Its Smyadovo tomb 28 and sample I2430
    not far from Danube river roads,
    with a stone axe, and in a strange body position,
    Varna is the ultimate frontier of what is S Balkans
    Yet so far....,

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    All calculators must be questioned.
    If :
    a) the samples arent representative, which can only be if they have a complete geographic spread , accounts for the demographic density, and be in sufficient numbers
    b) collected scientifically
    c) processed scientifically

    then it would always skew the results and the conclusions.
    It is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    What regions exactly do you consider as Central Balkan? The eastern half of Slavonia in Croatia could be considered somewhat Central Balkan geographically, but then again it could also be considered as a part of the Western Balkans.

    Some of the Z2103 in Greeks does come from later migrations from further north. A branch that comes into mind is Z2705 which is closesly associated with the Proto-Albanians and Albanian expansion as a whole. The presence of Z2705 in Greece can be attributed to the Albanian (Arvanite) migrations during the Medieval. Not sure what percentage of Greek Z2103 is Z2705+, but a rather considerable amount does seem to be as such.
    Then there are also older clades that could be associated with the Proto-Greeks, such as clades under L584. Armenians also have high percentages of L584, possibly confirming the connection between Greeks and Armenians that has been theorised by linguists. The problem is that Greeks rarely do NGS tests which makes it difficult to understand what haplogroups or branches can confidently be called "Greek" or "Hellenic". Future aDNA will clear things up I think.

    Should also note that one of the Mycenaean samples have been classified as R-Z2103 according to one aDNA map that I have found. The sample has been labelled as "MycenaeanElite" and is dated back to 1,500 BCE. Not too sure if the classification is accurate though. https://indo-european.eu/ancient_dna...ree/index.html
    I consider central Balkans the regions of Serbia, Kosovo, and parts of North Macedonia. In any case, that is of little importance, because it appears R-M269 (likely R-Z2103) was present (possible as a major clade) among Mycenaeans, and didn't just arrive during the LBA with the Dorian Greeks (among which could be insignificant after all). Finding an LBA central Balkan sample of R-Z2103 would only be of importance in our context, if R-M269 seemed to be totally absent from Bronze Age Mycenaean Greece, but seems it wasn't.

    As for later intrusions of R-Z2103 subclades, sure, it would be rational to presume that even without any knowledge, and indeed, R-Z2705 seems to have an Albanian origin. But it is a stretch to be claiming R-Z2705 as considerable, when descendants of Arvanites in Greece as a whole are approximately 200,000-250,000, and from the few samples that have been tested for Y-DNA, R-M269 doesn't seem to be a prominent haplogroup among them,
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ (down at the bottom the pie chart pertains to Arvanites' haplogroup distribution based on 14 samples, i know, few but still diverse). Nonetheless, there seems to be a Greek sample belonging to that clade, as is visible in YFull.

    As for R-L584, yes it could be seen as a corroboration for what you write, but i am not aware of the frequency of R-L584 in Greece either. If it is rather small, then it could be due to an actual Armenian migration during the Medieval era,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Greece#Early_settlement.

    Last, thanks for that map, it is very interesting. If this sample is actually factual, then it would only corroborate my case of R-Z2103 being a main clade among Mycenaeans, but the source seems to be Anthrogenica, and none of the samples that were published in the "
    Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper identifies with it. After all, the paper only had a single Mycenaean male sample designated as J2a1. I am not excluding it, i would actually hope for it, but it would be nice to have the source (thread) and description of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    As for later intrusions of R-Z2103 subclades, sure, it would be rational to presume that even without any knowledge, and indeed, R-Z2705 seems to have an Albanian origin. But it is a stretch to be claiming R-Z2705 as considerable, when descendants of Arvanites in Greece as a whole are approximately 200,000-250,000, and from the few samples that have been tested for Y-DNA, R-M269 doesn't seem to be a prominent haplogroup among them, http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ (down at the bottom the pie chart pertains to Arvanites' haplogroup distribution based on 14 samples, i know, few but still diverse). Nonetheless, there seems to be a Greek sample belonging to that clade, as is visible in YFull.

    As for R-L584, yes it could be seen as a corroboration for what you write, but i am not aware of the frequency of R-L584 in Greece either. If it is rather small, then it could be due to an actual Armenian migration during the Medieval era,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Greece#Early_settlement.

    Last, thanks for that map, it is very interesting. If this sample is actually factual, then it would only corroborate my case of R-Z2103 being a main clade among Mycenaeans, but the source seems to be Anthrogenica, and none of the samples that were published in the "
    Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper identifies with it. After all, the paper only had a single Mycenaean male sample designated as J2a1. I am not excluding it, i would actually hope for it, but it would be nice to have the source (thread) and description of it.
    Yeah, I guess it could be considered to be somewhat of a stretch, but that is only due to the fact that not many Greeks have tested. Which makes analysis pretty difficult, at least for me. The Greek Z2705>BY6197 sample is in fact of Arvanite origin from Preveza, he forms a subclade with an Albanian from Vlore on the tree.

    Based on the Greek project on FTDNA, L584 does seem to be pretty common when it comes to Z2103. But then again, there are some Pontic Greeks within this clade which may indeed suggest West Asian input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I still do not understand the effort of some people in this Forum to connect all ancient pre-Greek and Greek populations with R1b.
    [B]can you explain this to me..,
    Yes i can explain in one word, firstly your putting this very wrong and thus not being rational...

    I dont think anyone said ALL ancient pre-Greek and Greek populations associate with R1b or should be associated or has to be associated...well i cant explain more, just look at the studies and maybe try to be more rational...

    As for me in the beginning i thought r1b was at least importance for these locations but now more I read the more am trying to be rational...

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    The classical Greek sample turning to be R1b-M269 does not suprise me at all. In fact I am sure this halpogroup was present in Myceaneans, given the Anatolia connection.
    I always assumed after this study revealed J2a in Minoans and Myceaneans, that the Myceaneans carried R1b-M269 and G2a.
    Last edited by ihype02; 16-02-20 at 01:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The classical Greek sample turning to be R1b-M269 does not suprise me at all. In fact I am sure this halpogroup was present in Myceaneans, given the Anatolia connection.
    I always assumed after this study revealed J2a in Minoans and Myceaneans, that the Myceaneans carried R1b-M269 and G2a.
    Which classical Greek sample?


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    For Angela:
    I thought the Greek-Empuries turned to be R1b-M269, I guess I must have misunderstood something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    For Angela:
    I thought the Greek-Empuries turned to be R1b-M269, I guess I must have misunderstood something.
    Yeah, all the males who were "Mycenaean" like turned out to be J. It would be interesting to know if it was J2b or J2a.

    I wonder if the amateur community tried to resolve it further?

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    Mistakes happen. In my defense I also considered J2a a very Hellenic halpogroup before I saw the Myceanean study. But if I considered Thessalians, Epirotes and Macedonians as the descendants of the Myceanaens I wouldn't take this halpogroup in consideration, good thing that I didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Mistakes happen. In my defense I also considered J2a a very Hellenic halpogroup before I saw the Myceanean study. But if I considered Thessalians, Epirotes and Macedonians as the descendants of the Myceanaens I wouldn't take this halpogroup in consideration, good thing that I didn't.
    In general, Epirotes and Macedonians are thought to descend from Dorians. Thessalians are thought to be a mix of Aeolians and Dorians on the western end. The Myceneans are thought to be Achaians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Which classical Greek sample?
    There is indeed a Classical Greek sample from ancient Ambracia (southern Epirus) shown in this following presentation, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0 (after 15:14), with Y-DNA as R1b1b (or R-P297) and mtDNA as H2a1. The date of the sample was 478-430 BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    There is indeed a Classical Greek sample from ancient Ambracia (southern Epirus) shown in this following presentation, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0 (after 15:14), with Y-DNA as R1b1b (or R-P297) and mtDNA as H2a1. The date of the sample was 478-430 BCE.
    Would be interesting to see where this sample plots on an autosomal scale.

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