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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Would be interesting to see where this sample plots on an autosomal scale.
    I have already reached out to the scientist that presented the sample. If there is any additional relevant information to share i will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I have already reached out to the scientist that presented the sample. If there is any additional relevant information to share i will.
    Not just that sample but all the samples that had quality autosomal DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Not just that sample but all the samples that had quality autosomal DNA.
    Yeah, i also asked for the rest of the ancient Ambracian samples that are visible in his presentation. Though i am not so sure this will come to fruition. If i don't get an answer from him, i will contact other members of the lab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, i also asked for the rest of the ancient Ambracian samples that are visible in his presentation. Though i am not so sure this will come to fruition. If i don't get an answer from him, i will contact other members of the lab.
    Thanks, Demetrios! It will be a wonderful addition to the collection of ancient DNA samples that Jovialis et al have assembled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, i also asked for the rest of the ancient Ambracian samples that are visible in his presentation. Though i am not so sure this will come to fruition. If i don't get an answer from him, i will contact other members of the lab.
    Great. It would be amazing to have some updates regarding this issue. It is quite a waste that we do have in fact genetic material of Classical mainland Greeks while it is not published yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Great. It would be amazing to have some updates regarding this issue. It is quite a waste that we do have in fact genetic material of Classical mainland Greeks while it is not published yet.
    Yeah it was mentioned before and I was expecting it to be published in 2019. One wonders why haven't they published it yet.
    It will probably never come out. How long did it take for the Myceanean study to be get published from the day the scientist started working in it?

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    It will a great thing to see more and more samples to be found to see if different Greek tribes have different genetic makeup, more or less steppe, the percentages of the different haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yeah it was mentioned before and I was expecting it to be published in 2019. One wonders why haven't they published it yet.
    It will probably never come out. How long did it take for the Myceanean study to be get published from the day the scientist started working in it?
    If I remember correctly, people who were aware of the Mycenaean study were expecting it for years. It was presented a year or two later than was expected. Let's see if we can get a scoop. Thumbs up.

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    I got a response from him. The translation of the original Greek message is the following.

    "Hello Demetrios,

    Thank you for your interest.

    These samples will be analyzed in-depth (autosomal markers) in the near future as part of a research program. The results that i show in the presentation are preliminary and not final.

    Sincerely,
    Nikolaos Psonis"

    The aforementioned preliminary presentation took place in the 16th of February, 2018 therefore i don't think it will be long before we have a publication, since 2 years have already passed. In any case, i asked him when can we approximately expect the paper. I will update you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I got a response from him. The translation of the original Greek message is the following.

    "Hello Demetrios,

    Thank you for your interest.

    These samples will be analyzed in-depth (autosomal markers) in the near future as part of a research program. The results that i show in the presentation are preliminary and not final.

    Sincerely,
    Nikolaos Psonis"

    The aforementioned preliminary presentation took place in the 16th of February, 2018 therefore i don't think it will be long before we have a publication, since 2 years have already passed. In any case, i asked him when can we approximately expect the paper. I will update you.
    Pseudoscience.....


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    Now genetics is pseudo-science, analysis of ancient dna is pseudo-science.

    The only thing that isn't pseudo-science is nationalist myth building.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now genetics is pseudo-science, analysis of ancient dna is pseudo-science.

    The only thing that isn't pseudo-science is nationalist myth building.
    In case you are referring to my post that can’t find anymore, pseudoscience is not reveling genetic data even when have passed 2 years, there was another study in Greece mentioned by Yetos for some other samples that was never published 1 or 2 years ago, and then we have still pending: IMG_4161.jpg

    Just show us the bones, they don’t lie.....




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    blevins: I am not sure what you are upset about. However, in terms of these studies, it could be the quality of the samples or DNA extracted from said samples are not of the standards that any statistical analysis and results from that analysis provides enough stable results for the paper to make it through the peer review process that all major academic journals in the Western World (Europe, USA, Australia, even though it is in the Pacific) etc, require before a paper is accepted by the Editor or Editorial board for publication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    In case you are referring to my post that can’t find anymore, pseudoscience is not reveling genetic data even when have passed 2 years, there was another study in Greece mentioned by Yetos for some other samples that was never published 1 or 2 years ago, and then we have still pending: IMG_4161.jpg

    Just show us the bones, they don’t lie.....




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    Was someone going to recover genetic material of Alexander's family? Sounds interesting, but stupid. My two cents on this, extracting ancient genetic material is fine. But ascribing it to a certain individual? You can never positively identify a person. I would not put any names on it. Now that is pseudo science.

    As for Ancient Greek genetic material. You can find it anywhere. From Spain to India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Was someone going to recover genetic material of Alexander's family? Sounds interesting, but stupid. My two cents on this, extracting ancient genetic material is fine. But ascribing it to a certain individual? You can never positively identify a person. I would not put any names on it. Now that is pseudo science.

    As for Ancient Greek genetic material. You can find it anywhere. From Spain to India.
    Lack of openness and transparency is a mark of pseudoscience.DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece but nothing from Vergina Tomb?
    How is that possible?!!!!



    IMG_4162.jpg


    . IMG_4163.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I got a response from him. The translation of the original Greek message is the following.

    "Hello Demetrios,

    Thank you for your interest.

    These samples will be analyzed in-depth (autosomal markers) in the near future as part of a research program. The results that i show in the presentation are preliminary and not final.

    Sincerely,
    Nikolaos Psonis"

    The aforementioned preliminary presentation took place in the 16th of February, 2018 therefore i don't think it will be long before we have a publication, since 2 years have already passed. In any case, i asked him when can we approximately expect the paper. I will update you.




    Well I am still precaution and call me 'prohabited' about R1b1b,
    Is there any offcial publication? or until now just a presentation?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Lack of openness and transparency is a mark of pseudoscience.DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece but nothing from Vergina Tomb?
    How is that possible?!!!!



    IMG_4162.jpg


    . IMG_4163.jpg


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    you are telling us nothing?
    What is your problem?

    1)why the Vergina tomb bones may never be searched? or delay on the publication results?

    2) or Greek laboratories (always to you) publish fake and faulse results?

    Anyway this the Lab that Demetrios link the video for the possible FIRST R1b1b found in Greece.






    Link
    https://ancient-dna.gr/index.php/en/

    its 1 of the 8 IMBB labs in Greece.
    It is very very young, Founded at 2016.

    So if you say this lab makes pseudoscience
    Your opinion does not count
    THE ONES WHO DECIDE THAT ARE THE ONES WHO CRITISISE And Check for correctness THE METHODS, the infrastucture, the extack of results etc,Pseudoscience has nothing to do on timing a scientists publish his search.
    neither on the search he decides to do.
    but on the method, the tools, etc, the sample he used and how he changed the results.


    In case you did not understand
    Look the Link
    http://www.e-rihs.eu/partners/

    E-RIHS national hubs

    National hubs operate at national level in diverse legal frameworks and represent national associations of partner facilities.









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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    you are telling us nothing?
    What is your problem?

    1)why the Vergina tomb bones may never be searched? or delay on the publication results?

    2) or Greek laboratories (always to you) publish fake and faulse results?

    Anyway this the Lab that Demetrios link the video for the possible FIRST R1b1b found in Greece.






    Link
    https://ancient-dna.gr/index.php/en/

    its 1 of the 8 IMBB labs in Greece.
    It is very very young, Founded at 2016.

    So if you say this lab makes pseudoscience?
    Your opinion does not count?
    THE ONES WHO DECIDE THAT ARE THE ONES WHO CRITISISE And Check for correctness THE METHODS, the infrastucture, the extack of results etc,Pseudoscience has nothing to do on timing a scientists publish his search.
    neither on the search he decides to do.
    but on the method, the tools, etc, the sample he used and how he changed the results.


    In case you did not understand
    Look the Link
    http://www.e-rihs.eu/partners/

    E-RIHS national hubs

    National hubs operate at national level in diverse legal frameworks and represent national associations of partner facilities.








    DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece is something not nothing, but this was not what I was looking for......


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    This is going to end now or you both will get infractions.

    When and if the paper is released the analysis can be looked at by other labs and the amateur community. No doubt the samples will be made available since this is an academic endeavor. Until that happens I don't see how anyone can say they have published pseudo science.

    So, enough.

    Why do I think that even if all of that happens, there will be those who won't accept the results.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Myceneans vs 647 Ancient samples

    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece is something not nothing, but this was not what I was looking for......


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    would you pay the labs?
    or would you publish the results.

    Officially is a presentation to pre-gratuated or after, students.
    an intro to molecular biology techology.

    So even I, a Greek, amnot conviced for R1b1b,
    but wait for publication.

    until then the term you use may wrong or correct,
    but until then pseudoscience is only in your mind,

    and if you want results for thousands of skeletons or horse bones
    better give a considerable donation to start one,
    than accuse other people work.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    would you pay the labs?
    or would you publish the results.

    Officially is a presentation to pre-gratuated or after, students.
    an intro to molecular biology techology.

    So even I, a Greek, amnot conviced for R1b1b,
    but wait for publication.

    until then the term you use may wrong or correct,
    but until then pseudoscience is only in your mind,

    and if you want results for thousands of skeletons or horse bones
    better give a considerable donation to start one,
    than accuse other people work.
    Sure I will pay for the lab work, how would you think Albanian Dna project got to 1000 samples. But Greek government is not that poor I guess. But he says all... after two years still sleeping over. My last comment for this topic.
    IMG_4164.jpg



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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Sure I will pay for the lab work, how would you think Albanian Dna project got to 1000 samples. But Greek government is not that poor I guess. But he says all... after two years still sleeping over. My last comment for this topic.
    IMG_4164.jpg



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    sometimes 6 years may pass so the owner publish his search.
    and know it well.

    and even if never published,
    surely does not allow nobody to accuse as pseudoscience a lab worker before officially publish work results and method.

    I never published my pantent engine,
    Although I made 3 demonstrations,
    Am I a pseudoscientist?

    we both know that your statement was mistaken or wrong,
    By not admiting it guess who lose

    BELLOW IS THE VIDEO OF A PRESENTATION possibly to pre- or after-gratuated students
    which part of it is Pseudoscience?


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps the papers, and the amateur community, have done everyone a disservice in "only" looking at averages. It's important to know the variation as well, both for understanding source populations and levels of admixture, and for comparison to other ancient and modern samples.

    Look at the variation in the Mycenaean samples.

    Distance to: I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    14.81901481 Sephardic_Jews
    15.58023323 Italy_Calabria
    15.79488101 Italy_Campania
    15.86489521 Ashkenazy_Jews
    15.92790005 Ashkenazi
    17.40529244 Italy_Sicily
    17.57771316 Greek_Crete
    17.77067247 Morocco_Jews
    17.96504160 Italy_Abruzzo
    18.82986989 Greek
    19.61582749 Italy_Apulia
    19.66680452 Cypriots
    20.61383560 Italy_Marche
    20.70738516 Greek_Cappadocia
    21.83485251 Italy_Lazio
    22.10320737 France_Corsica
    23.16245237 Italy_Romagna
    24.24396420 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    24.91841287 Nusayri_Turkey
    24.97059330 Italy_Tuscany
    26.46765367 Italy_Emilia
    26.82342260 Turk_West_BlackSea
    27.33735778 Italy_Liguria
    27.35662077 Turk_Central_West
    27.73607759 Albanian_Kosovo


    arget: I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    Distance: 2.4755% / 2.47548835
    41.0 Sardinian
    31.8 Cypriots
    24.4 Abhkasians
    2.2 Ashkenazi
    0.6 Japanese

    Distance to: I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    12.27120108 France_Corsica
    14.32152359 Italy_Marche
    14.68387571 Italy_Campania
    15.25370406 Italy_Abruzzo
    15.67295122 Italy_Romagna
    15.85919560 Italy_Sicily
    15.87056092 Italy_Lazio
    16.19717395 Italy_Calabria
    16.51763573 Italy_Tuscany
    17.23109399 Ashkenazi
    17.67637947 Italy_Emilia
    17.81472986 Greek
    17.82236516 Ashkenazy_Jews
    17.92499729 Italy_Apulia
    18.11262273 Italy_Liguria
    18.22126779 Sephardic_Jews
    18.43265038 Morocco_Jews
    19.90943408 Italy_Lombardy
    20.53450754 Greek_Crete
    21.60349458 Italy_Piedmont
    21.89247381 Italy_Veneto
    22.18968679 Albanian_Kosovo
    22.92617064 Albanian_North
    23.81265026 Swiss_Italian
    24.51374259 Italy_FriuliVG
    Target: I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    Distance: 3.6847% / 3.68474748 | ADC: 0.25x
    56.2 Ashkenazy_Jews
    28.4 Sardinian
    13.8 France_Corsica
    1.2 YRI30
    0.2 Abhkasians
    0.2 Yoruba

    I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese,2.87,0,2.57,0,37.48,8.67,0,0.36,10.29,0,37.5 2,0.24
    Distance to: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    13.55233139 Italy_Campania
    14.13797717 Italy_Calabria
    14.48416031 Sephardic_Jews
    14.61318925 Ashkenazi
    14.65877553 Morocco_Jews
    14.91203692 Italy_Sicily
    15.08998197 France_Corsica
    15.18027377 Italy_Abruzzo
    15.51886394 Italy_Marche
    15.72085239 Ashkenazy_Jews
    16.97325909 Italy_Lazio
    17.49433337 Italy_Romagna
    17.49709084 Italy_Apulia
    17.70788807 Greek
    18.28898849 Greek_Crete
    18.88948094 Italy_Tuscany
    20.35369266 Italy_Emilia
    20.60290849 Italy_Liguria
    22.88537126 Italy_Lombardy
    23.64104693 Albanian_Kosovo
    24.33396639 Italy_Piedmont
    24.58295751 Albanian_North
    24.75683264 Italy_Veneto
    24.83940619 Cypriots
    25.03009988 Crimean_Tatar_Coast

    Target: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    Distance: 3.2754% / 3.27542614 | ADC: 0.25x
    57.4 Ashkenazi
    27.0 Sardinian
    14.2 Sephardic_Jews
    1.4 Yemen_Jews


    Target: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    Distance: 2.1375% / 2.13751088
    37.0 Ashkenazi
    34.4 Sardinian
    18.6 Samaritians
    5.4 Bulgarians
    3.6 Greek
    1.0 Dai


    Distance to: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    11.44677448 Italy_Campania
    12.33129841 Italy_Calabria
    13.13825497 Italy_Abruzzo
    13.15328096 Ashkenazi
    13.22250222 Italy_Sicily
    13.57535267 Sephardic_Jews
    13.66806131 Ashkenazy_Jews
    14.38034346 Italy_Marche
    15.07364588 Greek
    15.15563578 France_Corsica
    15.34010430 Morocco_Jews
    15.46971390 Italy_Apulia
    15.81161769 Italy_Lazio
    15.98990306 Greek_Crete
    16.70016766 Italy_Romagna
    18.37812967 Italy_Tuscany
    19.91440511 Italy_Emilia
    20.56554327 Italy_Liguria
    22.03402823 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    22.26987202 Albanian_Kosovo
    22.56625800 Cypriots
    22.73267317 Italy_Lombardy
    23.21611725 Albanian_North
    23.53980884 Greek_Cappadocia
    24.18255797 Italy_Piedmont

    Target: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    Distance: 0.9465% / 0.94648721
    31.8 Sardinian
    22.6 Cypriots
    20.2 Ashkenazi
    15.4 Greek
    7.0 Abhkasians
    2.8 Bulgarians
    0.2 Sandawe_He


    Target: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    Distance: 2.5374% / 2.53738883 | ADC: 0.25x
    36.8 Ashkenazy_Jews
    25.4 Sardinian
    18.4 Cypriots
    12.6 Greek
    6.8 Italy_Campania

    There's quite a bit of variation, but in the list of "admixtures" either Ashkenazi/Sephardi, or Cypriots or both show up, populations with some of degree of Levantine admixture. One sample even has "Samaritans" as part of the mix.

    The variation could be explained by a not completely stable culture wide admixture because not enough time had passed for complete admixture.

    What, however, of this more Levantine or Levantine tinged strand?

    Now, there's no historical evidence whatsoever for migrations from the Levant proper. The authors found only a tiny bit, if I remember correctly, in the average of the Mycenaeans.

    So, is it a "false positive" of sorts, i.e. just showing more "southern" early farmer ancestry that was not yet completely admixed?

    Or, did some of the people who migrated to Greece bringing Iran Neo like ancestry come from areas with more Levant like Neo as well, i.e. ancestry not from northwest Anatolia, but from southeast Anatolia near Syria?

    When it comes to populations like the people of Crete, or even Cyprus, are we then looking only at Bronze Age admixture from non-Levantines rather than more recent admixture from true Levantine populations?

    What application would that have to southern Italian populations?

    One confounding factor might be sample quality. Anyone know if some of these samples are sub-par?

  25. #1975
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    But Eshkenazi mark is European, what has to do with Levant? Isn't it?

    and even today majority of Greeks have a small %

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