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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ihype, do you know how many reference Southern Italian samples G25 has? Do these dots represent the whole set? Are they all Calabrians from a certain paper or is it a mix of Southern Italian people who volunteered to be part of the Eurogenes project? If this is all he has for Italy, and he has many more samples, relatively, for eastern and northern and central Europe, this PCA map is going to be totally off.

    Also, what's the sample number of the Iron Age Moldovan?

    As is clear from both this and the K15 PCA, there was variation among the Myceneaens, with one sample quite a bit closer to modern southern Italians and probably especially Sicilians, who would fill the space in between.

    Is there any reason why the Sicilians weren't included in this sample set?

    As to the classical Greek sample from Spain, how do we know he was from mainland Greece? He could have been an Islander Greek or the coast of Asia Minor, yes?
    Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:



    As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
    The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]

    The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:



    As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
    The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]

    The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
    Thanks for the response, ihype.

    The first one in particular definitely shows why some Sicilians get distances of 2-4 with Mycenaean.

    Yes, I'm aware that Phoecaea was founded from the mainland, but given that it was on the coast of Asia Minor, there is the possibility that merchants from there in later periods would not necessarily be 100% mainland in ancestry.

    Until we get classical samples from mainland Greece there's still a little doubt in my mind as to whether that Empuries sample is definitely exactly what we'd see on the mainland.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:



    As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
    The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]

    The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
    Thanks, I appreciate you including the Sicilian samples in the PCA plot.

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    From G25, i look like a mixture of Bronze Age Dalmatian and Paeonian/Macedonian with Slavic hint.

    If we go by IBD sharing, instead of these old-school calculators Albanians will share more ancestry with Bronze Age Dalmatian than North Italians for sure, especially considering that one of the samples carries a very common Y-DNA among Albanians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    IBD analysis is tricky because inheritance is so random. I'm not saying it's not useful, because it is, but it's just part of the picture. It's reliability would depend on who is doing it, with what tools, and the size of the group being examined.

    We'll have to wait for papers examining different groups.

    Using yDna, or mtDna, for that matter, is the worst way to draw such conclusions. I'm the child of a U-152 father and a U2e mother, both steppe lineages, and yet steppe is the smallest of my ancestral groups, 25-30% at the most. Founder effects in certain areas can make interpretation very difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Thanks, I appreciate you including the Sicilian samples in the PCA plot.
    Thank you but I did not make the PCA. I found it in Anthrogenica. I don't know who the author this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Thank you but I did not make the PCA. I found it in Anthrogenica. I don't know who the author this.
    Ok, my bad. Thanks for the clarification and thanks for posting that PCA. I am not a member at Anthrogenica.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    IBD analysis is tricky because inheritance is so random. I'm not saying it's not useful, because it is, but it's just part of the picture. It's reliability would depend on who is doing it, with what tools, and the size of the group being examined.

    We'll have to wait for papers examining different groups.

    Using yDna, or mtDna, for that matter, is the worst way to draw such conclusions. I'm the child of a U-152 father and a U2e mother, both steppe lineages, and yet steppe is the smallest of my ancestral groups, 25-30% at the most. Founder effects in certain areas can make interpretation very difficult.
    All should be taken in consideration, Y-DNA, autosomal, mtDNA, in order to get a clear and full picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    I would like to see the Empuries sample added to the PCA’s.

    Also surprised somewhat that Turks are not relatively close to Mycenaeans, as are modern south Balkan populations (seen in heat maps).

    As for classical Greeks, I would like to see if they are further east-shifted like modern Greeks, and whether the steppe ancestry seen in Mycenaeans became more diluted.
    Turkish people have more Turkic ancestry, in addition to representing many assimilated ethnic groups and not just one. For example, look at the following map that presents the frequencies for East Asian/Eurasian admixture in each (or rather most) Turkish province, as well as certain Greek-Anatolian/Cypriot and Turkic sub-populations in the boxes. For example, you can see that based on this, Greeks in Cyprus have a frequency of 0.93%, while the Turkish average would be around 10.88%, and contrary to common belief more concentrated in western Turkey than eastern. This also makes sense by the way, since the original Turkic populations that migrated were nomadic, and they would rationally only stop where they couldn't continue any further, namely the Sea. In addition to that, let's also consider the Anatolian invasion of Timur at the beginning of the 1400s, which could have also contributed to that distribution.


    Then there is also this paper, even though a little old, http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12607764/index.pdf, namely "COMPARATIVE ANALYSES FOR THE CENTRAL ASIAN CONTRIBUTION TO ANATOLIAN GENE POOL WITH REFERENCE TO BALKANS (2006)" by Ceren Caner Berkman, that concluded for the Central Asian contribution in Anatolia to be, Y-DNA 13%, mtDNA 22%, alu insertion (autosomal) 15%, and autosomal 22%, with respect to Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uyghur region, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. And again bear in mind that the Balkans were used as comparison, so all the more relevant.

    All these would autosomally differentiate most of the Turkish people. I also like the following PCA from "The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (2018)" paper because it is very detailed with both modern and ancient samples (not the Thracian sample unfortunately),
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf (page 26 for additional reference of the color-filled ancient samples seen). First of all we see the Turkish samples being far from the Mediterranean macro-cluster. And second, in relation to what we are discussing about the Mycenaeans; southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews all clustering together with the Mycenaean samples (with the exception of one that is more Neolithic-shifted). The orange color-filled triangles looking to the right pertain to Mycenaeans.


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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I wonder what happened to part of eastern Thrace. There is a part of it close to the Evros river that has a decent amount of Turkic ancestry and then east of that all the way to Constantinople there is none. I wonder if the part where there are none are native Thracians that were islamized or islamized Balkanites from different vilayets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I wonder what happened to part of eastern Thrace. There is a part of it close to the Evros river that has a decent amount of Turkic ancestry and then east of that all the way to Constantinople there is none. I wonder if the part where there are none are native Thracians that were islamized or islamized Balkanites from different vilayets.
    It's not none. Those grey areas aren't included due to being unsampled. Here is another map by Eupedia, more general.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Turkish people have more Turkic ancestry, in addition to representing many assimilated ethnic groups and not just one. For example, look at the following map that presents the frequencies for East Asian/Eurasian admixture in each (or rather most) Turkish province, as well as certain Greek-Anatolian/Cypriot and Turkic sub-populations in the boxes. For example, you can see that based on this, Greeks in Cyprus have a frequency of 0.93%, while the Turkish average would be around 10.88%, and contrary to common belief more concentrated in western Turkey than eastern. This also makes sense by the way, since the original Turkic populations that migrated were nomadic, and they would rationally only stop where they couldn't continue any further, namely the Sea. In addition to that, let's also consider the Anatolian invasion of Timur at the beginning of the 1400s, which could have also contributed to that distribution.


    Then there is also this paper, even though a little old, http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12607764/index.pdf, namely "COMPARATIVE ANALYSES FOR THE CENTRAL ASIAN CONTRIBUTION TO ANATOLIAN GENE POOL WITH REFERENCE TO BALKANS (2006)" by Ceren Caner Berkman, that concluded for the Central Asian contribution in Anatolia to be, Y-DNA 13%, mtDNA 22%, alu insertion (autosomal) 15%, and autosomal 22%, with respect to Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uyghur region, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. And again bear in mind that the Balkans were used as comparison, so all the more relevant.

    All these would autosomally differentiate most of the Turkish people. I also like the following PCA from "The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (2018)" paper because it is very detailed with both modern and ancient samples (not the Thracian sample unfortunately),
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf (page 26 for additional reference of the color-filled ancient samples seen). First of all we see the Turkish samples being far from the Mediterranean macro-cluster. And second, in relation to what we are discussing about the Mycenaeans; southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews all clustering together with the Mycenaean samples (with the exception of one that is more Neolithic-shifted). The orange color-filled triangles looking to the right pertain to Mycenaeans.

    the shift you see on that pca couldn't also just be because of inceased iranian farmer/CHG or steppe related ancestry? the filled green triangles on the upper right corner are if i remember correctly iranian farmers or CHG. they and the steppe were not that high in east eurasian ancestry.
    the old study you quoted also found that "By that method, for Y-DNA, Alu, mtDNA except Iraq (13%) and Armenia (6%) for females, the Central Asian contribution to the hybrids (Armenia, Georgia, Northern Caucasus, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon) were similar or even higher than to those of Turkey and Azerbaijan."
    the "central asian" detected here might not all be real central asian turkic ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    the shift you see on that pca couldn't also just be because of inceased iranian farmer/CHG or steppe related ancestry? the filled green triangles on the upper right corner are if i remember correctly iranian farmers or CHG. they and the steppe are not that high in east eurasian ancestry.
    the study you quoted also found that "By that method, for Y-DNA, Alu, mtDNA except Iraq (13%) and Armenia (6%) for females, the Central Asian contribution to the hybrids (Armenia, Georgia, Northern Caucasus, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon) were similar or even higher than to those of Turkey and Azerbaijan."
    the "central asian" here might not be real "central asian"
    There is certainly higher CHG admixture in Turkish people, and this also plays its role, but they also have higher East Eurasian admixture in the mix. Here is the respective Caucasian admixture map by Eupedia. Both Turkey and Cyprus seem to have similar frequency, but Cypriots and Turkish people don't cluster on the PCA above. There are additional factors that differentiate them, such as more eastern influence.


    As for that other paper from 2006. Yeah, it might not be totally accurate in terms of Central Asian influence. I mainly shared it because of the Balkan comparison. Here is some more information on the genetics of Turkish people for those interested,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people#Genetics and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Turkish_people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    There is certainly higher CHG admixture in Turkish people, and this also plays its role, but they also have higher East Eurasian admixture in the mix. Here is the respective Caucasian admixture map by Eupedia. Both Turkey and Cyprus seem to have similar frequency, but Cypriots and Turkish people don't cluster on the PCA above. There are additional factors that differentiate them, such as more eastern influence.


    As for that other paper from 2006. Yeah, it might not be totally accurate in terms of Central Asian influence. I mainly shared it because of the Balkan comparison. Here is some more information on the genetics of Turkish people for those interested,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people#Genetics and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Turkish_people.
    this "caucasian admixture" is certainly not all ancestry related to "CHG". brits and scandis do not just have 0-5% of this ancestry for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    the shift you see on that pca couldn't also just be because of inceased iranian farmer/CHG or steppe related ancestry? the filled green triangles on the upper right corner are if i remember correctly iranian farmers or CHG. they and the steppe were not that high in east eurasian ancestry.
    the old study you quoted also found that "By that method, for Y-DNA, Alu, mtDNA except Iraq (13%) and Armenia (6%) for females, the Central Asian contribution to the hybrids (Armenia, Georgia, Northern Caucasus, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon) were similar or even higher than to those of Turkey and Azerbaijan."
    the "central asian" detected here might not all be real central asian turkic ancestry.
    Also, don't know if you noticed but Cypriots are very close to the Anatolian Chalcolithic sample (orange color-filled triangle looking up), if not clustering with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    this "caucasian admixture" is certainly not all ancestry related to "CHG". brits and scandis do not just have 0-5% of this ancestry for example.
    Yeah correct. As Eupedia has written pertaining to this map, "The Caucasian admixture was brought to Europe by Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. It wasn't found among Mesolithic European nor among Proto-Indo-European Steppe people.". We know proto-IEs had approximately 50% CHG for example, therefore this doesn't pertain to it, my mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah correct. As Eupedia has written pertaining to this map, "The Caucasian admixture was brought to Europe by Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. It wasn't found among Mesolithic European nor among Proto-Indo-European Steppe people.". We know proto-IEs had approximately 50% CHG for example, therefore this doesn't pertain to it.
    so what if the steppe/CHG related ancestry in turkey, that was potentially brought by indo-europeans and later with the ottomans, makes the difference between turkey and cyprus in the pca above?
    i don't think the east eurasian ancestry is that high in turkey to really affect their position in a PCA that has mostly west eurasian populations in it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    so what if the steppe/CHG related ancestry in turkey, that was potentially brought by indo-europeans and later with the ottomans, makes the difference between turkey and cyprus in the pca above?
    i don't think the east eurasian ancestry is that high in turkey to really affect their position in a PCA that has mostly west eurasian populations in it.
    I don't think so. For example, look at this paper, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6748862/pdf/EMS84309.pdf. Namely, "The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia (2018)". It includes two Ottoman Anatolian samples from 1500 CE, and they are more shifted towards Central Asia, away from older Anatolian samples. They have more eastern influence, which is also visible in their admixtures.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't think so. For example, look at this paper, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6748862/pdf/EMS84309.pdf. Namely, "The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia (2018)". It includes two Ottoman Anatolian samples from 1500 CE, and they are more shifted towards Central Asia, away from older Anatolian samples. They have more eastern influence, which is also visible in their admixtures.
    Thanks, Demetrios. Lots of good information here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't think so. For example, look at this paper, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6748862/pdf/EMS84309.pdf. Namely, "The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia (2018)". It includes two Ottoman Anatolian samples from 1500 CE, and they are more shifted towards Central Asia, away from older Anatolian samples. They have more eastern influence, which is also visible in their admixtures.
    still, if you look at supplementary table 3 of this paper here:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...ntary-material
    then turkish people have a lower fst with early bronze age steppe0.023/lateBASteppe0.015/CHG0.041/iran_N0.040/iranChl0.010 than the cypriots 0.031/0.02/0.047/0.046/0.012

    and the pca is reflecting this. now for me it is more probable that this is because of additional % of these ancestries and not because of additional east eurasian ancestry.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 08-05-20 at 19:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    this "caucasian admixture" is certainly not all ancestry related to "CHG". brits and scandis do not just have 0-5% of this ancestry for example.
    It is more of an indication of higher levels of Iran_N-like ancestry, which exists across the board in West Eurasians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It is more of an indication of higher levels of Iran_N-like ancestry, which exists across the board in West Eurasians.

    i know. just wanted to point out that his graphic does certainly not show the real relation between modern Cypriots/Anatolians and Iran_N/CHG based on the fact that it fails to do so in many other places.

    i really don't think that the east eurasian ancestry explains enough variation among all west eurasian populations to be really relevant in such a PCA. to me it looks like european HG ancestry eventhough actually very little on average(so to say the biggest peanuts among peanuts) in most populations and iranian farmer/CHG differences are the most influential components here. so the little east eurasian in turkish people makes almost no difference here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    still, if you look at supplementary table 3 of this paper here:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...ntary-material
    then turkish people have a lower fst with early bronze age steppe0.023/lateBASteppe0.015/CHG0.041/iran_N0.040/iranChl0.010 than the cypriots 0.031/0.02/0.047/0.046/0.012

    and the pca is reflecting this. now for me it is more probable that this is because of additional % of these ancestries and not because of additional east eurasian ancestry.
    These are decimal differences, therefore minor. And it's what i would except anyway. The principal factor of Turkish people differentiating is this eastern influence they have. Look at the following for example, where Turks from the Central provinces of Sivas and Yozgat are included, next to Cappadocian Greeks (originating from the same region more or less).
    Credit goes to @Alkaevli (Anthrogenica).


    Now, Cappadocian Greeks have negligible amounts of that same eastern influence, while the respective Turks pretty much what is shown in the previous East_Eurasian Turkish map i shared (post #2059); 8.44% and 9.72% respectively for those provinces. We can hypothesize that if that eastern influence didn't exist in the respective Turks, they would in fact cluster close to Cypriots and Greek Cappadocians, just like both of the latter do themselves in this following PCA. We would also see them close to Cypriots in many of the other PCAs out there, but we don't.
    Credit goes to @Alkaevli (Anthrogenica).


    A more obvious picture would look like this. You would expect to see Turks within this cline, just like the Greek_Central_Anatolia samples, namely Cappadocian. Instead you find them way more down and interestingly enough, parallel to that cline.
    Credit goes to @Michalis Moriopoulos (Anthrogenica).


    For the record, here are most of the Turkish provinces included as well, next to other populations; to give you a more complete perspective.
    Credit goes to @Alkaevli (Anthrogenica).



    Anyway, we are diverging from the original subject of this thread. If you want to discuss further we can move to PM.

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    ^^ The Myceanean samples in that PCA look so heterogenous.
    I have heard that some Cental group of Anatolians clusters with Cypriots who are quite close to Coppadican Greeks. I believe Cappodican Greeks are a good represenation of Central Anatolians without the Turkic Admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It is more of an indication of higher levels of Iran_N-like ancestry, which exists across the board in West Eurasians.

    I wonder if you get banned on eurogenes' blog if you post this chart? I mean, isn't it still dogma on his site that there's no Iran Neo in any Europeans except Southern Italians/Sicilians? :)

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