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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yeah those 6 samples are way out there by themselves. Also the French seem to overlap a lot with Hungarians which is surprising
    I've always thought there's something wonky about that first French academic sample, although I have no proof of it. That's the one which I think 23andme uses, for example, and they can't tell the southern Germans from the eastern French. Then, Hungary has had a lot of German migration, and they have more EEF than Slavs, so they plot in the general vicinity without having been affected by the exact same migrations.

    (Btw, the samples are from students at the University of Lyon. Who knows how careful they were about all four grandparents being French, given how many foreigners, i.e. Italians, Germans, Poles, etc. are now "French". They should probably have used only people with all great-grandparents being from France.)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yes I wanted to mention that. I could believe it for Poles but for Ukrainians it seems a little strange.
    Ah...Ukrainians are different from Russians, tho, yes? There's been population wipe out after population wipe out there, before "Slavic" migration from the north. Look at the "Ostrogoth" found there: he's a Pontic Greek. Then, ancestry might have diffused north from the Greek areas along the coast. You can see it in one of the charts upthread. Ukrainians have more "southern" ancestry than Russians.

    I always thought the "Slavic" migrations came more from the direction of Poland, in which case that comparison would be better, but even if it came by way of modern Ukraine, the people living there now are not the same as the people who lived there before the 6th century.

    The only way to really know, imo, is to get Empire Era mainland Greek samples, and some "newly arrived" Slavic migrants and compare them to see what combination results in modern mainland Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've always thought there's something wonky about that first French academic sample, although I have no proof of it. That's the one which I think 23andme uses, for example, and they can't tell the southern Germans from the eastern French. Then, Hungary has had a lot of German migration, and they have more EEF than Slavs, so they plot in the general vicinity without having been affected by the exact same migrations.

    (Btw, the samples are from students at the University of Lyon. Who knows how careful they were about all four grandparents being French, given how many foreigners, i.e. Italians, Germans, Poles, etc. are now "French". They should probably have used only people with all great-grandparents being from France.)
    Weren't the Franks a Germanic tribe and so were the Visigoths and Burgunds? I think Hungary does have some Germanic influence. They also both have Celtic influences.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Weren't the Franks a Germanic tribe and so were the Visigoths and Burgunds? I think Hungary does have some Germanic influence. They also both have Celtic influences.
    They both have Celtic, or Gallic. They both have LN farmer ancestry.

    As to Hungary, there were migrations of Germans into Hungary. For France, despite the fact that France takes its name from the Franks, and a whole area is named after the Burgunds, there's some dispute over how much "German" ancestry there is in the French. There's clearly elite dominance, i.e. the aristocracy, and I believe some in the North/Northeast and east, with final Gallic/Germanic levels similar to southwestern Germans perhaps?, but Ralph and Coop found no Germanic ancestry in the IBD. Last time I looked the northwest of France is more like southwest England, an area with less "Germanic" than someplace like East Anglia or the north.

    France south of the Loire generally is a little different; more southern. We have a sample now from the southwest of France, Gascony, and they're quite different, more like the Basques, not the Lyon sample. I think Provence has some Italian influence, especially the coastal areas.

    Nobody is "pure" anything. How much Germanic is in Southern Germans, versus how much "Celtic"? How much Germanic vs Celtic is in Hungary? There's certainly little of the people who brought them their language.

    Anyway, I think the academics and testing companies use the Lyon student sample, which may not be all that different from southwestern Germans, and migrants to Hungary might have come from there as well, at least some of them. Plus, a company like 23andme uses their own clients as a reference, and most of their clients are Americans, and a big chunk of German immigration to the U.S. was from the Palatinate so that goes some way to explaining that confusion.
    Last edited by Angela; 11-05-20 at 13:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ah...Ukrainians are different from Russians, tho, yes? There's been population wipe out after population wipe out there, before "Slavic" migration from the north. Look at the "Ostrogoth" found there: he's a Pontic Greek. Then, ancestry might have diffused north from the Greek areas along the coast. You can see it in one of the charts upthread. Ukrainians have more "southern" ancestry than Russians.

    I always thought the "Slavic" migrations came more from the direction of Poland, in which case that comparison would be better, but even if it came by way of modern Ukraine, the people living there now are not the same as the people who lived there before the 6th century.

    The only way to really know, imo, is to get Empire Era mainland Greek samples, and some "newly arrived" Slavic migrants and compare them to see what combination results in modern mainland Greeks.
    My point was that Ukrainians are more southern shifted so I would expect them to be the closests to Peloponnesians compared to other Slavic groups in that study.

    Northern Slavs have absorbed Baltic and Germanic ancestry, the early pagan Slavs were similar to them but not identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:
    Bergamo is so not that far away from Albanians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Bergamo is so not that far away from Albanians.

    Closer to Tuscans, as in almost every analysis I've seen. :)

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    One more thing that I forgot to add: assuming Epirotes will plot closer to the Thracian (70% Thracian + 30% Greek Empurie in term of North-South distance) in the PCA I showed, how do we know it is gonna be northeastern direction?
    They might plot west of Thracians (like they were geographically) in the direction of Bell Beaker Sicily for all we know.

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    [Quote= Teshub could have originated from a Common Anatolian or early Hittite culture.]
    Tessub can be analyzed as *dey-+swob- "sky-storm". I believe it's an inherited word in Hurrian.

    [Quote= Additionally, I think it's pretty clear that there was some sort of early Armenian presence in the South Caucasus by 2000 BCE, so Teshub could have come from that.]
    I'm quite sceptical about that. I don't think Armenian can be much earlier than the first half of the 1st millennium BC.

    [Quote= Armenian appears to have some loanwords from Sumerian, which are normally explained as being filtered through an intermediary (Akkadian) but the Armenian forms are closer to the Sumerian forms than the Akkadian forms often are, so I find this hard to believe.]
    There's a number of direct borrowings from Sumerian to Hurrian, that do not exist in Akkadian.

    [Quote= Remember, the earliest attestations of Hurrian that we have are from 2000 BCE. But we have some early Hittite names recorded in relatively close proximity to Urkesh (where the earliest recorded Hurrians were). These early IE names date to 2500-2300 BCE. ]
    Do you have a reference for this claim?

    [Quote= I wouldn't write off Teshub being IE.]
    It's IEan in the sense that Hurrian is a sister-language of PIE.

    [Quote= Uelikummi, for its part, seems to be a mixed Armenian and Hurrian name--Uelik being Armenian, -ummi being Hurrian. I suspect that Illuyanka derives from PIE "wel" just like Uel(ik) does. Or if "Ill" doesn't derive from "wel" it is related to it (one of the meanings of "wel" is "to twist, to coil"--think about snakes)]
    Ulli-Kummi means "Destroy Kummi", this monster was created against Tessub, and Kumme is the sanctuary of Tessub.
    Illui-anga is the Snake (anga) of Destruction (illu-), this word is Hurrian, with -i- being the genitive marker.

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    I have a question, this study says four out of five males belonging to Minoans and Mycenaeans belonged to haplogroup J which was rare or non-existent in earlier populations from Greece which was dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2, and then it says Haplogroup J was present in Caucasus/Iran and its spread westward have accompanied the ‘eastern’ genome-wide influence. These newcomers from the east certainly brought an important thing to Greece, was it Minoan, as the earliest civilization of Europe, or Mycenaean, as the earliest attested Indo-European culture in Europe?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I have a question, this study says four out of five males belonging to Minoans and Mycenaeans belonged to haplogroup J which was rare or non-existent in earlier populations from Greece which was dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2, and then it says Haplogroup J was present in Caucasus/Iran and its spread westward have accompanied the ‘eastern’ genome-wide influence. These newcomers from the east certainly brought an important thing to Greece, was it Minoan, as the earliest civilization of Europe, or Mycenaean, as the earliest attested Indo-European culture in Europe?
    It's actually 2/3 Minoan males that belonged to J2a, and 1/1 Mycenaean that belonged to the same haplogroup. Therefore 3/4. The other Minoan belonged to G2a.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/?report=objectonly
    I see all of those haplogroups as pre-Greek. G2a is largely associated with the Neolithic European farmers, while for J2a i see a subsequent migration, which also must have introduced the so-called "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component which is mentioned in the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" study, as having been inherited by both Minoans and Mycenaeans in the range of ~9-32%. Note that some of that autosomal component was also introduced via the steppe Indo-Europeans, while for most of it (as is also present in Minoans) i support the following. It has been hypothesized that before the Greek speakers first descended from northwestern Greece towards central and southern Greece at approximately 2,200 BCE, an Anatolian IE presence had already been established there from approximately 2,500 BCE. I believe that's when J2a truly began increasing in the Aegean. For example, look at the distribution of pre-Greek toponyms, based on suffixes. Some of those might also have a Greek root of course, but most of those are seen as pre-Greek, and largely of Anatolian influence. A Greek root that i can quickly observe is the name of the island of Κύθνος, which can be etymologized as a "hiding place" (of pirates) from IE *kewdh- > κεύθω = hide (κεύθ- > zero degree κυθ- > Κύθ-νος like κυθώνυμος/κυθνώνυμος = of hidden name). The same root seems to have also given rise to the name of the island of Κύθηρα by the way. And other examples. What i am trying to say is that some of those might be Greek, but many are most certainly pre-Greek which were eventually adopted by the Greek speakers. Some can also represent a pre-IE substrate, from prior the Anatolian migration.





    Plus, as i have written again in the past, some of those might also be Hurro-Urartian. There are toponyms such as the region of "Βιάννος" (Viannos) in southern Crete which could be a cognate of the Urartian regional endonym "Biainili/Viainili" that also relates to Lake Van (around which their Kingdom was based). Last, we most probably also have a cognate for the Hurrian endonym "Khurrites" in Greek mythology, namely the "Κουρήτες" (Kourites), out of which the Cretan endonym "Κρήτες" (Krites) could stem. All these seem to be corroborated by the linguistic research of Peter van Soesbergen (
    http://minoanscript.nl/) who observed relations between Minoan Linear A and Hurrian. Crete is important in that respect, because it has the highest concentration of the J2a paternal haplogroup out of all the Greek sub-regions, and of Europe for that matter.

    Last, the Minoans were not the earliest civilization of Europe, but Europe's first advanced Bronze Age civilization. Don't forget a number of Neolithic European cultures that existed prior of that and were very advanced for their time. For example, the earliest evidence for metallurgy is seen in the Balkans, namely at Neolithic sites of modern-day Serbia such as Majdanpek, Jarmovac, Belovode and Pločnik, dated to the 6th millennium BCE. We even have examples of proto-cities in cultures such as Cucuteni-Trypillia (modern-day northeastern Romania, Moldova, and western Ukraine), with some of its settlements reaching as high as 25,000-30,000 inhabitants, such as Talianki. And other examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    It's actually 2/3 Minoan males that belonged to J2a, and 1/1 Mycenaean that belonged to the same haplogroup. Therefore 3/4. The other Minoan belonged to G2a.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/?report=objectonly
    I see all of those haplogroups as pre-Greek. G2a is largely associated with the Neolithic European farmers, while for J2a i see a subsequent migration, which also must have introduced the so-called "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component which is mentioned in the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" study, as having been inherited by both Minoans and Mycenaeans in the range of ~9-32%. Note that some of that autosomal component was also introduced via the steppe Indo-Europeans, while for most of it (as is also present in Minoans) i support the following. It has been hypothesized that before the Greek speakers first descended from northwestern Greece towards central and southern Greece at approximately 2,200 BCE, an Anatolian IE presence had already been established there from approximately 2,500 BCE. I believe that's when J2a truly began increasing in the Aegean. For example, look at the distribution of pre-Greek toponyms, based on suffixes. Some of those might also have a Greek root of course, but most of those are seen as pre-Greek, and largely of Anatolian influence. A Greek root that i can quickly observe is the name of the island of Κύθνος, which can be etymologized as a "hiding place" (of pirates) from IE *kewdh- > κεύθω = hide (κεύθ- > zero degree κυθ- > Κύθ-νος like κυθώνυμος/κυθνώνυμος = of hidden name). The same root seems to have also given rise to the name of the island of Κύθηρα by the way. And other examples. What i am trying to say is that some of those might be Greek, but many are most certainly pre-Greek which were eventually adopted by the Greek speakers. Some can also represent a pre-IE substrate, from prior the Anatolian migration.





    Plus, as i have written again in the past, some of those might also be Hurro-Urartian. There are toponyms such as the region of "Βιάννος" (Viannos) in southern Crete which could be a cognate of the Urartian regional endonym "Biainili/Viainili" that also relates to Lake Van (around which their Kingdom was based). Last, we most probably also have a cognate for the Hurrian endonym "Khurrites" in Greek mythology, namely the "Κουρήτες" (Kourites), out of which the Cretan endonym "Κρήτες" (Krites) could stem. All these seem to be corroborated by the linguistic research of Peter van Soesbergen (
    http://minoanscript.nl/) who observed relations between Minoan Linear A and Hurrian. Crete is important in that respect, because it has the highest concentration of the J2a paternal haplogroup out of all the Greek sub-regions, and of Europe for that matter.

    Last, the Minoans were not the earliest civilization of Europe, but Europe's first advanced Bronze Age civilization. Don't forget a number of Neolithic European cultures that existed prior of that and were very advanced for their time. For example, the earliest evidence for metallurgy is seen in the Balkans, namely at Neolithic sites of modern-day Serbia such as Majdanpek, Jarmovac, Belovode and Pločnik, dated to the 6th millennium BCE. We even have examples of proto-cities in cultures such as Cucuteni-Trypillia (modern-day northeastern Romania, Moldova, and western Ukraine), with some of its settlements reaching as high as 25,000-30,000 inhabitants, such as Talianki. And other examples.
    As I said in another thread, this thing that Linear B which was used for writing Mycenaean Greek dates back to 1500 BC doesn't mean that Mycenaeans migrated to Greece in the same time, after the Islamic conquest of Iran, for about 400 years Arabic script was used for just writing Arabic in Iran but then Persians used the same script with some changes for writing Persian, it doesn't mean that in the first 400 years all Persians spoke Arabic.

    Minion is an aboriginal language in Greece, Minoan civilization dates back to at least 3,000 BC but Mycenaeans migrated to Greece after 2,000 BC, in this study there is just one Minoan male belonged to G2a (before 2,000 BC), three other ones are Mycenaean J2a (after 2,000 BC).

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    As I said in another thread, this thing that Linear B which was used for writing Mycenaean Greek dates back to 1500 BC doesn't mean that Mycenaeans migrated to Greece in the same time, after the Islamic conquest of Iran, for about 400 years Arabic script was used for just writing Arabic in Iran but then Persians used the same script with some changes for writing Persian, it doesn't mean that in the first 400 years all Persians spoke Arabic.

    Minion is an aboriginal language in Greece, Minoan civilization dates back to at least 3,000 BC but Mycenaeans migrated to Greece after 2,000 BC, in this study there is just one Minoan male belonged to G2a (before 2,000 BC), three other ones are Mycenaean J2a (after 2,000 BC).
    Linear B is a writing script, a syllabary to be exact, that the Mycenaeans used to keep administrative records. Mycenaean Linear B was evolved from the Minoan Linear A script. The first records that we have of Linear B are dated to 1,450 BCE, and are actually found in Knossos. This is important because these earliest records are contemporary with the Mycenaean expansion to Crete, and thus show that it was there that they first came in contact with Linear A and adapted it to record their own language, leaving us with the Linear B tablets, that were later also found on the mainland beginning from 1,400 BCE in Messenia.

    Second, nobody claimed that Mycenaeans migrated to Greece in 1,450 BCE, just because we happen to have the earliest records of Mycenaean Greek from this time, in the city of Knossos of all places. I quote myself again from above, "
    Greek speakers first descended from northwestern Greece towards central and southern Greece at approximately 2,200 BCE". To be more precise, proto-Greeks should have reached the area of north-western Greece sometime between 2,500-2,400 BCE, as i elaborate in this comment. Greeks first made their expansion towards central and southern Greece at approximately 2,200 BCE, something which is corroborated by the oldest horse bones of Greece being found in Lerna (Argolis) and dated to shortly after 2,000 BCE, as well as the appearance of Minyan ware initially in Tiryns (Argolis) sometime between 2,200-2,150 BCE. Furthermore, Mycenaean Greek, as recorded on the Linear B tablets, is the earliest attested form of Greek, NOT the earliest form of Greek which would be proto-Greek. Mycenaean Greek and its Iron Age descendant (Arcadocypriot Greek) aren't even considered the most conservative dialects of Greek, Doric is. Last, the actual Mycenaean period begins from 1,650 BCE, which is when the Grave Circle B (cemetery) formed, situated outside the citadel of Mycenae.

    Furthermore, the Bronze Age begins in Crete at approximately 3,200 BCE, but we wouldn't have the first records of Linear A until the initiation of the Neo-Palatial period in the 18th century BCE, a period that was also characterized by upheaval on the island. Could be due to an earthquake or an Anatolian invasion for all we know. And thus
    you cannot view the language recorded on the Linear A tablets as a pre-IE aboriginal dialect. A number of hypotheses have been written in terms of Linear A classification, one of which is the one i shared in the previous post. Furthermore, Late Bronze Age Crete was home to a number of people, not just one or two. For example in Homer's Odyssey, we read of Heteocretans, Cydonians, Achaeans, Dorians, and Pelasgians all living on the island, and language mixing with language side by side. Specifically, in Rhapsody (Book) 19 and lines 175-177, "There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities in it: the people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achæans, brave Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi. There is a great town there, Cnossus, where Minos reigned who every nine years had a conference with Jove himself.". As a side note, Cydonians are mentioned in another passage. Achaeans is a reference to Mycenaeans. Dorians of three-fold race, are obviously Dorian Greeks and that designation has to do with their three mythological branches, each of which was named after three heroes, namely Pamphylus, Dymas, and Hyllus (sometimes he is described as an Achaean originally), all sons of Heracles supposedly, and therefore Heracleidae (descendants of Heracles). There were of course additional branches of Dorians, but that "three-fold race" has to do with that narrative. After all, Dorians in Crete during the LBA could even be a Homeric anachronism for all we know. Cydonians could be another Greek tribe, because almost certainly it has a Greek etymology, namely from "κῦδος" (glory) that also gave rise to the Enligsh word "kudos" (praise), but also maybe from the Greek verb "κυδάνω" (exalt). Plus their city (Cydonia) was situated in northwestern Crete (opposite the coasts of Peloponnese), where modern Chania is. On the other hand they could also be non-Greek. Then we have Pelasgi, pertaining to Pelasgians who were most probably pre-IE or Anatolian IEs or Hurro-Urartians, and Eteocretans (true Cretans) who could be themselves pre-IEs or Anatolian IEs or Hurro-Urartians. Anyway, plenty of people.

    Last, there is only one Mycenaean male tested and he belonged to the J2a paternal haplogroup. The other two J2a males that you mention were not Mycenaean, but Minoan. Mycenaeans wouldn't appear on Crete until 1,450 BCE, and these Minoan J2a samples are dated to between 2,000-1,700 BCE, and at the eastern half of the island for that matter, in the sub-region of Lasithi. Also, they were found in a Minoan ossuary (cave to be exact), along with Minoan goods.

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    This is so interesting. I'm new here and have been reading occasionally. How do E-V13 and I2 fit into this time frame? Do either or both of them represent different tribes of Dorians? Were they in Peloponnese and the islands before the J2a and G arrived? Did they get pushed up north or into the mountains and then 'return' around 1000 BC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    there is only one Mycenaean male tested and he belonged to the J2a paternal haplogroup.

    "The J2a1 sample tested is obviously an assimilated Minoan, so it doesn't shed any light on the patrilineal origins of Mycenaeans."

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post516172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    "The J2a1 sample tested is obviously an assimilated Minoan, so it doesn't shed any light on the patrilineal origins of Mycenaeans."

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post516172
    You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

    We don't hold with people proclaiming their opinions or speculations as dogma when there is no supporting proof.

    Do I expect that perhaps we will come upon earlier Mycenaean samples carrying perhaps an R1b language? Yes, I do.

    That doesn't mean every J2a carrying Mycenaean is an assimilated Minoan. For one thing, if the route was through Anatolia it could have been picked up along the way. That Caucasus ancestry could have arrived with Greek speakers coming from the east, or it could have arrived in mainland Greece independently by way of Anatolia, or, indeed the Mycenaeans could have assimilated some Minoans from Crete.

    The point is: WE DON'T YET KNOW, so don't pretend we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientDNAhunter View Post
    This is so interesting. I'm new here and have been reading occasionally. How do E-V13 and I2 fit into this time frame? Do either or both of them represent different tribes of Dorians? Were they in Peloponnese and the islands before the J2a and G arrived? Did they get pushed up north or into the mountains and then 'return' around 1000 BC?
    E-V13 seems to have reached Greece, mostly in LBA, partly earlier, and some have arrived much later (such as Arvanites, Vlachs) this fits both with the E-V13 TMRCA, it's diversity and archaeological evidence pointing towards some Northern Balkan cultures. Any attempt to connect V13 to some Southern Neolithic Greek cultures is totally off, as it wasn't found there and ofc there is no archaeological evidence for any such scenario. I2 in the form of Dinaric clade has nothing to do with Dorians. great part of it are Slavs, part of it this non-Slavic clade descended of people like Bastarnae. In any case at the time of Dorians their ancestor lived in modern SW Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientDNAhunter View Post
    This is so interesting. I'm new here and have been reading occasionally. How do E-V13 and I2 fit into this time frame? Do either or both of them represent different tribes of Dorians? Were they in Peloponnese and the islands before the J2a and G arrived? Did they get pushed up north or into the mountains and then 'return' around 1000 BC?
    Most of I2 in Greece belongs to I-Y3120, and is either of Celtic or Bastarnae origin (I-Y18331 - possibly half of it and can be traced to 2,100 BCE) or of Slavic origin (I-Z17855, I-Y4460, and I-S17250, all of which can be traced to after the 7th century CE for Greece). A small percentage of it can also be of medieval Germanic origin. Same with E-V13. It seems that most of it today found in Greece, must have accompanied the Dorians during their Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age southern migrations to central and southern Greece, namely branches such as E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. I personally view these branches as originating from the Hallstatt culture, but i don't think they were initially very important, otherwise they would have left their linguistic imprint either in the most conservative of the Greek dialects, namely Doric, or the rest of the Greek dialects, yet there is no detectable Celtic substrate in the Greek language. It probably only became important much later due to a founder effect phenomenon. I also think these branches came independently from the Dorians, and not necessarily from having been assimilated by them, although they could have, but again, they would be few initially. @Aspurg seems to know more on E1b1b Greek branches, and i agree with his points above. As for Dorian samples, we only have one from a preliminary presentation done a couple of years ago (2018). Specifically he is a Dorian from the ancient Greek city of Ambracia, dated to 478-430 BCE, and belonging to haplogroup R1b1b. We need far more samples than that in general for much of Greece, but even from what we have i am of the opinion all Greek subgroups, be it either Mycenaean/Achaean, Dorian, Aeolian, or Ionian, all must have carried more than one haplogroup, and certainly from more than one period, be it pre-IE or IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Most of I2 in Greece belongs to I-Y3120, and is either of Celtic or Bastarnae origin (I-Y18331 - possibly half of it and can be traced to 2,100 BCE) or of Slavic origin (I-Z17855, I-Y4460, and I-S17250, all of which can be traced to after the 7th century CE for Greece). A small percentage of it can also be of medieval Germanic origin. Same with E-V13. It seems that most of it today found in Greece, must have accompanied the Dorians during their Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age southern migrations to central and southern Greece, namely branches such as E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. I personally view these branches as originating from the Hallstatt culture, but i don't think they were initially very important, otherwise they would have left their linguistic imprint either in the most conservative of the Greek dialects, namely Doric, or the rest of the Greek dialects, yet there is no detectable Celtic substrate in the Greek language. It probably only became important much later due to a founder effect phenomenon. I also think these branches came independently from the Dorians, and not necessarily from having been assimilated by them, although they could have, but again, they would be few initially. @Aspurg seems to know more on E1b1b Greek branches, and i agree with his points above. As for Dorian samples, we only have one from a preliminary presentation done a couple of years ago (2018). Specifically he is a Dorian from the ancient Greek city of Ambracia, dated to 478-430 BCE, and belonging to haplogroup R1b1b. We need far more samples than that in general for much of Greece, but even from what we have i am of the opinion all Greek subgroups, be it either Mycenaean/Achaean, Dorian, Aeolian, or Ionian, all must have carried more than one haplogroup, and certainly from more than one period, be it pre-IE or IE.
    I believe that Dorians were related to Hallstatt and brought considerable Ev-13 and R1b in Peloponnese.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    "The J2a1 sample tested is obviously an assimilated Minoan, so it doesn't shed any light on the patrilineal origins of Mycenaeans."

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post516172
    I agree with @Angela. You cannot be sure of that, even though i am also of the opinion for this Mycenaean J2a being pre-Greek and thus assimilated, be it from Minoans or Anatolian IEs. But still i don't understand your narrative. It was you that gave the impression in the previous comment of J2a being altogether Mycenaean and not Minoan. Anyway, i am certain that some J2a was even present among the PIEs. I say this for two reasons mainly. First because i am a supporter of the "Caucasian Substrate" hypothesis by Allan Bomhard, and second because the modern distribution of J2a does suggest that some might have been expanded with the IEs (Pontic-Caspian steppe, Tarim Basin, northwestern India). Of course most of Greek J2a doesn't fall into this category probably, but still, there isn't only one source of J2a.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I believe that Dorians were related to Hallstatt and brought considerable Ev-13 and R1b in Peloponnese.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    The Dorians couldn't have been related to Hallstatt because they were first a Greek-speaking people, and second their dialect is the one most akin to proto-Greek. And again, there is not even a Celtic substrate in the Greek language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The Dorians couldn't have been related to Hallstatt because they were first a Greek-speaking people, and second their dialect is the one most akin to proto-Greek. And again, there is not even a Celtic substrate in the Greek language.
    All good points but not good enough....for starters look Eupedia.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    All good points but not good enough....for starters look Eupedia.....


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    I have seen the Eupedia article, still though i don't see how what it writes is even academically corroborated. If i sat down and discussed with the person who wrote that article he would immediately change his mind. Don't treat Eupedia articles as a bible. There are many errors in what he writes, such for example that Mycenaeans came in Greece during 1,650 BCE and that Dorians came from central Europe (1,500 kilometres away) during 1,200 BCE. Of course there is no serious Indo-Europeanist who would agree with those notions for either Mycenaean Greeks or Dorian Greeks. It is baseless linguistically, archaeologically, and even mythologically for that matter. Plus it is extremely and ignorantly hypothetical bearing in mind that when he/she wrote this there were no Dorian samples available, and even now only one exists from a preliminary presentation, and he wasn't E-V13.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I have seen the Eupedia article, still though i don't see how what it writes is even academically corroborated. If i sat down and discussed with the person who wrote that article he would immediately change his mind. Don't treat Eupedia articles as a bible. There are many errors in what he writes, such for example that Mycenaeans came in Greece during 1,650 BCE and that Dorians came from central Europe (1,500 kilometres away) during 1,200 BCE. Of course there is no serious Indo-Europeanist who would agree with those notions for either Mycenaean Greeks or Dorian Greeks. It is baseless linguistically, archaeologically, and even mythologically for that matter. Plus it is extremely and ignorantly hypothetical bearing in mind that when he/she wrote this there were no Dorian samples available, and even now only one exists from a preliminary presentation, and he wasn't E-V13.
    I said for starters....I believe this is Maciamo’s work. So far this person has impressed me with his knowledge. There are other scholars that relate Hallstatt with Dorians.....he is not the only one. You don’t need to sit down with him, do it here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I said for starters....I believe this is Maciamo’s work. So far this person has impressed me with his knowledge. There are other scholars that relate Hallstatt with Dorians.....he is not the only one.


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    Maciamo or not, these are still ignorant and short-sighted quotes. I have read a few comments of Maciamo in the past relating to Armenians and i liked some of his hypotheses (i believe he is Armenian after all and would probably know more of his ethnic group), but that doesn't make these other quotes any more accurate. Also, who are those other scholars and what credentials do they have? Also, how do they relate them? There is not a single person who has actually studied ancient Greek and is a specialist in it that would claim that a people speaking a very conservative Greek dialect (a distinct Greek dialect), such as the Dorians, would be living for centuries outside their Greek linguistic cluster within a sea of Celtic speakers and other linguistic groups without having inherited at the very least a considerable substrate from these other languages. And then again, based on that very ignorant notion, where would the proto-Greek region be? Again, in central Europe?

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