Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

It peters out a bit by the time it gets to my area of Italy, but still pretty strong. Good. It's my favorite ancient culture. :)

Interesting how it's a bit darker around Marseilles than around Liguria. It's the effects of Greek colonization around Massalia, perhaps?

There's also a big difference between Cyprus and neighboring areas of the Levant and Turkey.

Angela, on this map, the darker area is around Nice (Nikaia?), not Marseille.
concerning Cyprus, Turkey had a lot of new influences since the Minoans, as well as Near-East, but if reliable we see here that southern Levant is closer (more "EEF"+Natufian) than Syria, current Anatolia and Armenia, and even more than today Iran (more Iranlike + bits of East-Asians and Steppics?). THat said, I thought they would have been closer one to another...
Besides, I red the Y-haplos lineages of Cyprian Truks and Greeks were very close one to another: a bit surprising.
I find very attractive all those maps based on G25, spite they are not always too contrasted in the between very mixed regions. It's an amateur 's work on Anhtrogenica, I think.
 
Agree with you Angela, Turks without their 15% C.Asian ancestry would be probably the closest population to Minoans (along with mainland Greeks without their Slavic ancestry)
 
Angela, on this map, the darker area is around Nice (Nikaia?), not Marseille.
concerning Cyprus, Turkey had a lot of new influences since the Minoans, as well as Near-East, but if reliable we see here that southern Levant is closer (more "EEF"+Natufian) than Syria, current Anatolia and Armenia, and even more than today Iran (more Iranlike + bits of East-Asians and Steppics?). THat said, I thought they would have been closer one to another...
Besides, I red the Y-haplos lineages of Cyprian Truks and Greeks were very close one to another: a bit surprising.
I find very attractive all those maps based on G25, spite they are not always too contrasted in the between very mixed regions. It's an amateur 's work on Anhtrogenica, I think.

Even if it's Nice, what would explain that other than the Greek settlement? There was no actual Greek settlement in Liguria. I'm not sure why, since the harbors are good there too. Maybe the Ligures were not so open to trade.

Yes, as I said, the Turkic component is pretty high in some Turks, so it will affect maps like this.

The G25 results are not always what one would expect. As you said, an amateur tool.
 
Agree with you Angela, Turks without their 15% C.Asian ancestry would be probably the closest population to Minoans (along with mainland Greeks without their Slavic ancestry)

Moesan brought up a good point, though, in that with G25 the Levant is pretty dark too. Maybe they would be about equal? Mainland Greece got more steppe even before the Slavs, right?

Minoans seem to have been a particular mix of Anatolian Neolithic overlaid with new migrations from Anatolia which were higher in CHG/Iran Neo.

Then add in about, what, 15% steppe ancestry and you get the Mycenaeans.
 
Here's the samples I get. Not the best fits, but perhaps it is relative to others?


22. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.52 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
Top 98% match vs all users

23. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.54 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
Top 98% match vs all users

26. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 15.26 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
Top 98% match vs all users

42. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 16.93 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
Top 96% match vs all users

54. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.77 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
Top 96% match vs all users

69. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 21.03 - I9005 - (Click for more info)
Top 96% match vs all users

73. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 21.92 - I0071 - (Click for more info)
Top 96% match vs all users

Now I'm jealous. I don't get a single Minoan hit. :)

I looked up my husband's.

14. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 12.09 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
Top
99
% match vs all users

47. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.0 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
Top
95
% match vs all users

52. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.57 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
Top
96
% match vs all users


53. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.65 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
Top
96
% match vs all users

I don't know why there's such a difference between the score for his best match and the others. Yours all cluster together

He gets only I Minoan.


57. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.14 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
Top
97
% match vs all users


You'd think from the map posted that the similarities would be higher.

Has anyone done one for a Mycenaean sample?

I really wish some Greeks would post their results here. It might help to clarify things.
 
Now I'm jealous. I don't get a single Minoan hit. :)

I looked up my husband's.

14. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 12.09 - I9041 - (Click for more info)
Top
99
% match vs all users

47. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.0 - I9033 - (Click for more info)
Top
95
% match vs all users

52. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.57 - I9010 - (Click for more info)
Top
96
% match vs all users


53. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 17.65 - I9006 - (Click for more info)
Top
96
% match vs all users

I don't know why there's such a difference between the score for his best match and the others. Yours all cluster together

He gets only I Minoan.


57. Minoan (2000 BC) ..... 18.14 - I9129 - (Click for more info)
Top
97
% match vs all users


You'd think from the map posted that the similarities would be higher.

Has anyone done one for a Mycenaean sample?

I really wish some Greeks would post their results here. It might help to clarify things.

I bet he would get the others too, at higher numbers past 60. He has an even closer affinity to the samples than me.
 
Angela, on this map, the darker area is around Nice (Nikaia?), not Marseille.
concerning Cyprus, Turkey had a lot of new influences since the Minoans, as well as Near-East, but if reliable we see here that southern Levant is closer (more "EEF"+Natufian) than Syria, current Anatolia and Armenia, and even more than today Iran (more Iranlike + bits of East-Asians and Steppics?). THat said, I thought they would have been closer one to another...
Besides, I red the Y-haplos lineages of Cyprian Truks and Greeks were very close one to another: a bit surprising.
I find very attractive all those maps based on G25, spite they are not always too contrasted in the between very mixed regions. It's an amateur 's work on Anhtrogenica, I think.
Southern Levant is closer probably due to the Philistine colonies established there during the LBA/EIA. Interestingly enough, the thread from Anthrogenetica (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18960-G25-Distance-Maps-To-Modern-Europeans&p=622055&viewfull=1#post622055) where these maps were originally published, also has a number of ancient Ashkelon samples (Ashkelon being part of the Philistine pentapolis or five cities). Some of the samples appear to have mixed with the locals, hence why they also carry some Levantine ancestry.
FD2nI7H.jpg

IfW6aIL.jpg

37sUcap.jpg

ErUewU3.jpg
 
Well since I am only 70% Greek, I am not sure I would be the best representative but I am willing to try. What are you guys using to generate these results?
 
Has anyone done one for a Mycenaean sample?
Yeah, here it is. Pretty much what the study also described, "finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy". Italy (especially south) seems to have preserved its Aegean ancestry a little more, as a result of not assimilating any Slavic elements. Although i should stress again that Slavic frequency varies throughout Greece, being more dense in the north than in the south. For example, Peloponnese has between 0.2%-14.4%, with the lowest being in Deep Mani (0.7%-1%) and South Tsakonia (0.2%-0.9%), both of them in Laconia.
wdxz9BI.jpg
 
I bet he would get the others too, at higher numbers past 60. He has an even closer affinity to the samples than me.

He's closer to the Minoan sample, but he's only closer to one of the Mycenaean ones. I don't know what's different about that particular one.
 
Southern Levant is closer probably due to the Philistine colonies established there during the LBA/EIA. Interestingly enough, the thread from Anthrogenetica (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18960-G25-Distance-Maps-To-Modern-Europeans&p=622055&viewfull=1#post622055) where these maps were originally published, also has a number of ancient Ashkelon samples (Ashkelon being part of the Philistine pentapolis or five cities). Some of the samples appear to have mixed with the locals, hence why they also carry some Levantine ancestry.
View attachment 11599
View attachment 11600
View attachment 11601
View attachment 11602

Didn't they find that the Philistine genetic influence mostly disappeared, though?

Or are these the samples "with" the Philistine influence?
 
Yeah, here it is. Pretty much what the study also described, "finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy". Italy (especially south) seems to have preserved its Aegean ancestry a little more, as a result of not assimilating any Slavic elements. Although i should stress again that Slavic frequency varies throughout Greece, being more dense in the north than in the south. For example, Peloponnese has between 0.2%-14.4%, with the lowest being in Deep Mani (0.7%-1%) and South Tsakonia (0.2%-0.9%), both of them in Laconia.
View attachment 11604

Yes, I remember those discussions. Those areas are where their closest Greek mainland descendants can be found perhaps? The fierce Spartans became the fierce Mani? :)
 
Even if it's Nice, what would explain that other than the Greek settlement? There was no actual Greek settlement in Liguria. I'm not sure why, since the harbors are good there too. Maybe the Ligures were not so open to trade.

Yes, as I said, the Turkic component is pretty high in some Turks, so it will affect maps like this.



The G25 results are not always what one would expect. As you said, an amateur tool.

Angela, I was not challenging your interpretation involving Greeks. I suppose Nice received Greek influence too, we are OK.
That said, concerning today Ligurians, I don't know where come the dense enough Y-E-V13 from?
 
Yes, I remember those discussions. Those areas are where their closest Greek mainland descendants can be found perhaps? The fierce Spartans became the fierce Mani? :)

Yep, you don't mess with the Maniotes or the Sfakiotes (from the Sfakia area of Crete). As the saying goes, they'd knife you before they'd talk to you. An exaggeration of course but they did have a certain reputation.
 
Didn't they find that the Philistine genetic influence mostly disappeared, though?

Or are these the samples "with" the Philistine influence?
These samples appeared in the "Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6609216/) study, which mentioned the following "While our modeling suggests a southern European gene pool as a plausible source, future sampling in regions such as Cyprus, Sardinia, and the Aegean, as well as in the southern Levant, could better resolve this question.". As for your first question, it includes the following "Our analysis suggests that this genetic distinction is due to a European-related gene flow introduced in Ashkelon during either the end of the Bronze Age or the beginning of the Iron Age. This timing is in accord with estimates of the Philistines arrival to the coast of the Levant, based on archeological and textual records. We find that, within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine-related gene pool.", therefore you are right, but my answer was mainly in response to this rather small frequency of Minoan ancestry observed in the Levant. Of course, Philistines aside, we should also consider the Greek colonization of the Levant during the Hellenistic period, with examples such as the "Decapolis" (or ten cities - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis).
 
Angela, I was not challenging your interpretation involving Greeks. I suppose Nice received Greek influence too, we are OK.
That said, concerning today Ligurians, I don't know where come the dense enough Y-E-V13 from?

No problem.

That's what I don't get about Liguria. We have a lot of EV13, which I always assumed came straight from Greece. Yet, we seem to be slightly lower in Minoan and Mycenaean affinity than either coastal Provence or even neighboring areas in Italy. Strange.

Although, this "affinity" is pretty attenuated. The maps are somewhat misleading. My husband, as I said above, gets Mycenaean and Minoan hits on mytrueancestry, but the fits are bad. Well, one Mycenaean is about 12, which isn't bad for an ancient sample, I suppose.
 
Agree with you Angela, Turks without their 15% C.Asian ancestry would be probably the closest population to Minoans (along with mainland Greeks without their Slavic ancestry)

Affinities, sure, but maybe a little less than you think. Even before Turkic tribes introgression, the 'west-asian' part was already stronger at those times (after Chalco, Bronze, Iron) in Anatolia than in Cyprus, and less 'levant' than in Cyprus, I think. Even the quality of 'west-asian' or say, 'Caucasus-Iranlike'was maybe different: isolation in Cyprus and drift? But concerning Y-lineages, Cyprus and today Anatolia are considered as very close.
 
Yes, I remember those discussions. Those areas are where their closest Greek mainland descendants can be found perhaps? The fierce Spartans became the fierce Mani? :)
In regards to Maniots i can tell you that they consider themselves direct descendants of the ancient Spartans, and that their lifestyle was a testament of that as well, although their dialect is pretty much common to the other Greek dialects, as a descendant of Medieval or Byzantine Greek. On the other hand, Tsakonia is home to the only modern dialectological descendant of Doric Greek, in contrast to the other modern Greek dialects which evolved from Koine Greek. Here is a small presentation on it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw.
 
These samples appeared in the "Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6609216/) study, which mentioned the following "While our modeling suggests a southern European gene pool as a plausible source, future sampling in regions such as Cyprus, Sardinia, and the Aegean, as well as in the southern Levant, could better resolve this question.". As for your first question, it includes the following "Our analysis suggests that this genetic distinction is due to a European-related gene flow introduced in Ashkelon during either the end of the Bronze Age or the beginning of the Iron Age. This timing is in accord with estimates of the Philistines arrival to the coast of the Levant, based on archeological and textual records. We find that, within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine-related gene pool.", therefore you are right, but my answer was mainly in response to this rather small frequency of Minoan ancestry observed in the Levant. Of course, Philistines aside, we should also consider the Greek colonization of the Levant during the Hellenistic period, with examples such as the "Decapolis" (or ten cities - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis).

Yes, that's the paper I meant.

I'd REALLY like to see samples from the Decapolis analyzed. :)

As I said in the prior post, the maps are somewhat deceiving. Yes, there's an affinity, but actual fits aren't great.

If some island or mainland Greeks have signed up with mta, I'd love to see them post their results in the mta thread.

Wouldn't it be great to see the results of a Mani?
 

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