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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The Greeks recognize the contributions of Mesopotamia and Egypt to our own ancient civilization and we are indebted to the Phoenicians for their alphabet.

    The Minoans are part of the genetic continuity between Anatolian, Levantine, Cypriots and other Med islands. Myceneans are like the Minoans except with some steppe admix.
    Let's be clear:

    The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6,7,8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.
    3/4th Neolithic Farmer from Western Anatolia, and the rest being Iran/Caucasus-related for Minoans.

    Mycenaeans are similar, but with steppe admixture.

    Let's not conflate them with populations who are different, and do not have connections to their genetic origins. (i.e. Levantine)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    as you write it does not seem as an assumption,
    but rather a statement,

    clearly a tottaly personal believe statement.
    Not at all, i am just making assumptions, i do acknowledge that i might be totally wrong. I just said R1b might have been the Y-DNA of IE Steppe ancestors of Myceneans since R1b is one of the most common Y-DNA among modern Greeks along with J2a and E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!
    It is not like that,

    Summerrians found irrigation and primary agriculture
    Aegyptians started to calculate the irrigation with sun and star positions
    Akkadians started the law under religious nobility
    Assyrians Babylonians .....
    Minoans found the true meaning of trade and merchant and sea routes
    etc etc

    Now what we call Hellenic Helladic proto-Greek or classic Greek or Byzantine Greek (Romioi) is another aproach.
    the Iran Neolithic and Anatolian Neolithic expansion is not historical and roleplay part, of Greek ethnogenesis, as also all the paleolithic and epipaleolithic populations
    but it is part of population when ethnogenesis movements happened.


    1)
    to understand at Sesklo-Dimini we see 2 different style populations,
    nearby each other, possible different farming and production.
    but after ethnogenesis we consider them as one.

    2) the Anatolian and Iran Neolithic is old enough and spread all over Europe

    3) there are some populations like Cycladetic and Minyan and eteo-Cretan etc who are considered (tottal or more) autochthonus comparing their era and others.


    compare Britain, USA etc
    At Minoan era only tin was the interest
    at Roman era was more a jewel of victory to the winner,
    but later Celts Saxons Normands etc etc
    after their ethnogenesis, they make the first industrial country and top empire.
    the early people of Britain when Minoans trade tin from British islands
    did not make the English or Walles etc etc ethnogenesis.
    but was present when England or Walles etc etc happened

    watch Rome as city,
    a few Patricians started a state and a myth,
    they needed populations for works army etc,
    as city grow all roads lead to Rome, becomes a sink of DNA
    the more the rich, the more the sink, the more the luxury the mixing populations etc etc,
    Roman becomes syonym of Latinoi, Etruscans, etc etc all Italians,
    and maybe one day many patricians sons left the city,
    So who is original Roman from th early founders?
    but they are all Romans even after a century.



    We do not consider G. Washington or B. Franklin as English, Dutch, Francais, no matter these could be their origins and DNA results
    But as Americans cause they made the US ethnogenesis,
    Last edited by Yetos; 26-06-20 at 03:54.
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    What did they have? Those Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE have no Iranian ancestry, Y-DNA haplogroup G2a2b2, mtDNA J2b1a1,... didn't come from Iran.
    It is different to claim that the people from Neolithic Caucasus, Transcaucasia, and western Iran, made a migration initially towards Anatolia and then towards the Aegean, something that nobody argues about, and different to claim that this CHG component came from Iran at the rather late stage of 2000 BCE to Greece, when it is indicated that it was here from earlier. Even our paper quotes the following.
    "This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry. It was previously shown that this type of ancestry was introduced into mainland Europe via Bronze Age pastoralists from the Eurasian steppe who were a mix of both eastern European hunter-gathers and populations from the Caucasus and Iran; our results show that it also arrived on its own, at least in the Minoans, without eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This ancestry need not have arrived from regions east of Anatolia, as it was already present during the Neolithic in central Anatolia at Tepecik-Çiftlik (Supplementary Information, section 2)." (And let me add again like i did in the previous comment, that other than Neolithic central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a number of other Anatolians had it as well, such as Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe.)
    Even if we take your current narrative (because i have observed that it changes throughout the discussion or that it is rather ambiguous) then even you are going against your hypothesis that Minoans had already been in Crete from 3000 BCE. Either that, or you haven't yet understood that the map that you cited refers to the arrival of CHG exclusively, prior of the proto-Greek steppe component, and essentially negates your hypothesis of 3000 BCE Minoans in Crete (that obviously had CHG from quite early). Now, you brought up a map as if it is the bible and claim a 2000 BCE date without even explaining what is the reasoning behind it, and namely if it is even a hypothesis or a proven fact by the authors. That of course negates primarily the pre-Greek Anatolian presence of Greece, and secondary other archaeological and linguistic elements of proto-Greek evolution (which would be initiated by a subsequent migration some centuries prior of 2000 BCE). And then again, it even negates the indications of th
    e "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper.

    Haplogroups. What about them again? First of all the G2a paternal haplogroup is associated with the Neolithic farmers (being their most frequent haplogroup), not CHG, and it was widespread in Europe from the Neolithic. Second, the J2a paternal haplogroup was also present in Neolithic Europe with a lesser frequency, but nonetheless present. A number of Neolithic European samples have been found such as the following. Maybe more exist that i am unfamiliar with.
    J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4800-4500 BCE
    J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4775 BCE
    J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4500 BCE
    J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4692-4546 BCE
    J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia dated to 4800-4500 BCE
    J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5324-5223 BCE
    J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5345-5221 BCE
    Not to mention that we have J2a at the Neolithic site of Barcın in northwestern Anatolia, dated to 6221-6073 BCE.
    And then you find it difficult to understand how could J2a exist both among an IE Greek population such as Mycenaeans, and a pre-Greek population such as Minoans.
    Thirdly, the J2b maternal haplogroup that you cite has also been present in Neolithic Europe. We have plenty of samples but i am not going to cite each specifically. I just want to mention the ones from the Balkans that also happen to be the oldest. We have a J2b1 from Neolithic Serbia (Lepenski Vir - borders with Romania) dated to 6205-5907 BCE, the second oldest are two J2b1 from Neolithic Bulgaria (Malak Preslavets - borders with Romania) dated to 5984-5806 BCE and 5733-5636 BCE, third oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Hajdúnánás-Eszlári út - eastern Hungary) dated to 5221-5000 BCE, and fourth oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Cegléd - central Hunary) dated to 5300-4900 BCE.

    You also write the following, "I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!".
    First of all, that is an ambiguous statement. Which is it, Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands OR Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations didn't come from other lands? You obviously meant to write the second, which in any case, i don't know how do you even write that to me considering what i have written throughout our discussion. Then again, aside of what i have written, an honest answer to you would be that Helladic cultures and civilizations rather evolved where they evolved with external influence, which is natural considering the location of Greece and any culture or civilization for that matter. Influence is a universal phenomenon. And certainly the Minoan culture and civilization wasn't transplanted from Iran/Caucasus (or Anatolia for that matter) to Crete/Aegean, neither was the Hellenic culture and civilization (with its many stages throughout the millennia) transplanted from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Helladic peninsula/Aegean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The Greeks recognize the contributions of Mesopotamia and Egypt to our own ancient civilization and we are indebted to the Phoenicians for their alphabet.

    The Minoans are part of the genetic continuity between Anatolian, Levantine, Cypriots and other Med islands. Myceneans are like the Minoans except with some steppe admix.
    I agree with the general message. Greeks were influenced from their neighbors and created something unique of their own. As for Phoenicians and their writing script. It was an abjad script that was transmitted to the Greeks, who took it and created the very first true alphabet. So, we took something and evolved it. Furthermore, i don't know why you cite the Levantines. If it is as a reference to western Jews, then it is wrong, since western Jews have detached from the Levantine macro-cluster and essentially cluster with Aegean (Greek islanders and southern Italians) populations. Same with Anatolia. If you are making a reference to its modern population it is wrong. Last, both Minoans and Mycenaeans are essentially Aegean populations, who by the way didn't receive any genetic influence from contemporary Levant or North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    It is different to claim that the people from Neolithic Caucasus, Transcaucasia, and western Iran, made a migration initially towards Anatolia and then towards the Aegean, something that nobody argues about, and different to claim that this CHG component came from Iran at the rather late stage of 2000 BCE to Greece, when it is indicated that it was here from earlier. Even our paper quotes the following.
    "This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry. It was previously shown that this type of ancestry was introduced into mainland Europe via Bronze Age pastoralists from the Eurasian steppe who were a mix of both eastern European hunter-gathers and populations from the Caucasus and Iran; our results show that it also arrived on its own, at least in the Minoans, without eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This ancestry need not have arrived from regions east of Anatolia, as it was already present during the Neolithic in central Anatolia at Tepecik-Çiftlik (Supplementary Information, section 2)." (And let me add again like i did in the previous comment, that other than Neolithic central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a number of other Anatolians had it as well, such as Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe.)
    Even if we take your current narrative (because i have observed that it changes throughout the discussion or that it is rather ambiguous) then even you are going against your hypothesis that Minoans had already been in Crete from 3000 BCE. Either that, or you haven't yet understood that the map that you cited refers to the arrival of CHG exclusively, prior of the proto-Greek steppe component, and essentially negates your hypothesis of 3000 BCE Minoans in Crete (that obviously had CHG from quite early). Now, you brought up a map as if it is the bible and claim a 2000 BCE date without even explaining what is the reasoning behind it, and namely if it is even a hypothesis or a proven fact by the authors. That of course negates primarily the pre-Greek Anatolian presence of Greece, and secondary other archaeological and linguistic elements of proto-Greek evolution (which would be initiated by a subsequent migration some centuries prior of 2000 BCE). And then again, it even negates the indications of th
    e "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper.

    Haplogroups. What about them again? First of all the G2a paternal haplogroup is associated with the Neolithic farmers (being their most frequent haplogroup), not CHG, and it was widespread in Europe from the Neolithic. Second, the J2a paternal haplogroup was also present in Neolithic Europe with a lesser frequency, but nonetheless present. A number of Neolithic European samples have been found such as the following. Maybe more exist that i am unfamiliar with.
    J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4800-4500 BCE
    J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4775 BCE
    J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria dated to 5500-4500 BCE
    J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary dated to 4692-4546 BCE
    J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia dated to 4800-4500 BCE
    J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5324-5223 BCE
    J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy dated to 5345-5221 BCE
    Not to mention that we have J2a at the Neolithic site of Barcın in northwestern Anatolia, dated to 6221-6073 BCE.
    And then you find it difficult to understand how could J2a exist both among an IE Greek population such as Mycenaeans, and a pre-Greek population such as Minoans.
    Thirdly, the J2b maternal haplogroup that you cite has also been present in Neolithic Europe. We have plenty of samples but i am not going to cite each specifically. I just want to mention the ones from the Balkans that also happen to be the oldest. We have a J2b1 from Neolithic Serbia (Lepenski Vir - borders with Romania) dated to 6205-5907 BCE, the second oldest are two J2b1 from Neolithic Bulgaria (Malak Preslavets - borders with Romania) dated to 5984-5806 BCE and 5733-5636 BCE, third oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Hajdúnánás-Eszlári út - eastern Hungary) dated to 5221-5000 BCE, and fourth oldest is a J2b1 from Neolithic Hungary (Cegléd - central Hunary) dated to 5300-4900 BCE.

    You also write the following, "I don't know why Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands to Greece, some people from Iran/Caucasus came and built Minoan culture and civilization and then some people from the steppe came and built Hellenic culture and civilization!".
    First of all, that is an ambiguous statement. Which is it, Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations came from other lands OR Greeks want to prove all cultures and civilizations didn't come from other lands? You obviously meant to write the second, which in any case, i don't know how do you even write that to me considering what i have written throughout our discussion. Then again, aside of what i have written, an honest answer to you would be that Helladic cultures and civilizations rather evolved where they evolved with external influence, which is natural considering the location of Greece and any culture or civilization for that matter. Influence is a universal phenomenon. And certainly the Minoan culture and civilization wasn't transplanted from Iran/Caucasus (or Anatolia for that matter) to Crete/Aegean, neither was the Hellenic culture and civilization (with its many stages throughout the millennia) transplanted from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Helladic peninsula/Aegean.
    Exactly. The component is older than people are trying to make it out to be. And either way Greek civilization is the result of Greeks not Anatolians, Levantines, Iranians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Have you studied the paper? Maybe you can enlighten us as to the actual quotes and how it comes to that date? Plus, it doesn't refer to the steppe component as the one coming via Anatolia, but the CHG exclusively, that predated the arrival of steppe ancestry to Greece. Furthermore, the steppe component is in fact seen coming from the northern route (look at the map). If anything that map negates the eastern model, as a number of other things do. Last, the steppe component that initially came doesn't pertain to the rather late Mycenaeans, but to the proto-Greeks that can be traced several centuries earlier to Greece.
    Eurogenes is claiming that new Mycenaean samples will show that steppe ancestry didn’t “trickle in” but rather came suddenly from the north. Don’t know how that can be known by relatively few ancient samples. Eurogenes aside, does anyone aware of any upcoming study?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Eurogenes is claiming that new Mycenaean samples will show that steppe ancestry didn’t “trickle in” but rather came suddenly from the north. Don’t know how that can be known by relatively few ancient samples. Eurogenes aside, does anyone aware of any upcoming study?
    I am only aware of the Greek paper that i mentioned in this thread some four months ago. As has already been mentioned, some of those samples have been shown in a preliminary presentation almost two and a half years ago, and will be part of an actual publication that is expected in the next two-three years. Here is the small exchange that i had with the scientist who made the presentation.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page79?p=597576&viewfull=1#post597576
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=597717&viewfull=1#post597717
    Now, the paper will probably include Greek samples from a number of periods. I say this because the scientist confirms in his message that there are additional samples for analysis, plus, in the preliminary presentation which you can watch here
    , and specifically on the relevant table shown at 14:17, Greek samples from four different timelines and locations are shown. Namely, a Neolithic (6000 BCE) sample from Peloponnese, an EBA/MBA (3300-1600 BCE) sample from Lefkada, many samples from the Classical Greek (478-430 BCE) city of ancient Ambracia, and two Byzantine Greek (11th century CE) samples from Heraklion in Crete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Eurogenes is claiming that new Mycenaean samples will show that steppe ancestry didn’t “trickle in” but rather came suddenly from the north. Don’t know how that can be known by relatively few ancient samples. Eurogenes aside, does anyone aware of any upcoming study?
    I don't see how he could know that with confidence.

    As for his interpretation of the paper, here on twitter, Lazaridis responds to him:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't see how he could know that with confidence.

    As for his interpretation of the paper, here on twitter, Lazaridis responds to him:




    If this is still Lazaridis' opinion, then it doesn't match with Georgievs North Eprirus proto-Greek theory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If this is still Lazaridis' opinion, then it doesn't match with Georgievs North Eprirus proto-Greek theory.
    offcourse it does,
    and explains a lot.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Literally 90 % of content in these forum debates regarding the Y-DNA and autosomal admixture is made from the perspective of posters ethnicity, then also hg's etc.

    So Shamiri, a Persian, is trying to appropriate J2a for his own ethnicity/civilisation. So J2a in Greeks is not Minoan related but rather should have arrived to there with some Persian-like proto-IE group. Has it occurred to Shamiri that proto-Persians are just an offshoot of Central Asian Nomadic proto-Iranics who invaded the Iranian Plateau 3000-3500 years ago, settled and mixed with the J2a carrying and other natives. Persians carry a minority autosomal Steppe Iranic/Andronovo element, mostly represented by Persian R1a Z93 clades.

    J2a clades already diversified 15 k + years ago, and it's clear that vast majority of Greek J2a has no relation to IE's, but it does to Minoan, and other movements.

    Though as there are so many J2a clades, some of them had different paths such has one Turkic/nomadic clade.

    Minoans had J-M319 for ex., I believe there are modern Cretans who are at least predicted as M319+. M319 itself is pretty old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If this is still Lazaridis' opinion, then it doesn't match with Georgievs North Eprirus proto-Greek theory.
    Lazaridis simply wrote that both models are currently on the table, not that he supports an Anatolian over a Northern route. He says we need more samples. Furthermore, in the very supplementary information of the paper we read, "However, we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2 level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history.". All of these indicate a Northern route.

    Second, even if we indeed had an Anatolian route instead of a Northern, this still wouldn't negate linguistic evidence nor the proto-Greek model of northwestern Greece. Even in that case proto-Greeks could end up in northwestern Greece, and it would actually be the most likely scenario even in that Anatolian route hypothesis.

    Third, it isn't just genetics and linguistics but also archaeology that corroborates a Northern route, whether we are to refer to the "Četina phenomenon" or the "Balkano-Lower Danubian" complex, therefore further corroborating the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model mentioned above by the paper. Then, as Lazaridis also writes, the thing that lets open the possibility for both a Northern and an Anatolian route has to do with the autosomal profile of pre-Greeks, and whether they were Anatolia_N or Minoan-like (Anatolia_N+Armenia). Take note that the second is also similar to many of the Anatolian autosomal profiles, something that is also hinted by the paper which even states that it existed in Anatolia from at least ~3,800 BCE, plus the following, "
    ADMIXTURE analysis (Extended Data Fig. 1) shows that both Minoans and Mycenaeans possess a ‘pink’ genetic component (K=8 and greater) as do Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, Neolithic Central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe. This component is maximized in the Mesolithic/Neolithic samples from Iran and hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (Extended Data Fig. 1). It is not found in the Neolithic of northwestern Anatolia, Greece, or the Early/Middle Neolithic populations of the rest of Europe, only appearing in the populations of the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age in mainland Europe, introduced there by migration from the Eurasian steppe.". Last, we also have linguistic indications for an Anatolian pre-Greek presence in Greece as i have written in previous posts, therefore also corroborating the Minoan_Lasithi component over the Anatolia_N one, indirectly. The paper also suggests it with the following, "This analysis shows that all Bronze Age populations from the Aegean and Anatolia derived most (~62–86%) of their ancestry from an Anatolian Neolithic-related population (Table 1). However, they also had a component (~9–32%) of ‘eastern’ (Caucasus/Iran-related) ancestry. It was previously shown that this type of ancestry was introduced into mainland Europe via Bronze Age pastoralists from the Eurasian steppe who were a mix of both eastern European hunter-gathers and populations from the Caucasus and Iran; our results show that it also arrived on its own, at least in the Minoans, without eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This ancestry need not have arrived from regions east of Anatolia, as it was already present during the Neolithic in central Anatolia at Tepecik-Çiftlik (Supplementary Information, section 2)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Has it occurred to Shamiri that proto-Persians are just an offshoot of Central Asian Nomadic proto-Iranics who invaded the Iranian Plateau 3000-3500 years ago, settled and mixed with the J2a carrying and other natives.
    Edit: Mistaken post, i deleted it. (3000-3500 years ago pertains to 1500 BCE)

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    The Doric steppe/germanic thing in southern Greece is not going to happen, let it go.
    You cannot expect an ancient Lakonian to plot north or even close to a Northern Thracian. And speaking of regional differences the Iron Age Thracian is from Northern Bulgaria, were there any regional differences in Thrace?

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    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Doric steppe/germanic thing in southern Greece is not going to happen, let it go.
    You cannot expect an ancient Lakonian to plot north or even close to a Northern Thracian. And speaking of regional differences the Iron Age Thracian is from Northern Bulgaria, were there any regional differences in Thrace?
    To whom are you responding? By the way, i agree with you as we discussed this one and a half month ago. To answer your question, yes, there were different branches of Thracians and specifically northern Bulgaria was inhabited by the branch of Moesi. Although, Dzhulyunitsa (where the sample was found) is probably at the borders of Moesia and Thracia proper. Furthermore, the supplementary information of "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" (2018) doesn't provide any additional relevant information. Just the following:
    "
    I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9) - Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm.".
    Maybe we can corroborate a specific identity by considering and comparing the burial practices of Thracians proper and Moesi with the above description, though i am unfamiliar with that subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    To whom are you responding? By the way, i agree with you as we discussed this one and a half month ago. To answer your question, yes, there were different branches of Thracians and specifically northern Bulgaria was inhabited by the branch of Moesi. Although, Dzhulyunitsa (where the sample was found) is probably at the borders of Moesia and Thracia proper. Furthermore, the supplementary information of "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" (2018) doesn't provide any additional relevant information. Just the following:
    "
    I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9) - Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm.".
    Maybe we can corroborate a specific identity by considering and comparing the burial practices of Thracians proper and Moesi with the above description, though i am unfamiliar with that subject.
    It would be great to know how the southern ones plot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    It would be great to know how the southern ones plot.
    It would be great, and i am sure that within this decade plenty of relevant samples will be published. But in the absence of samples i always tend to hypothesize based on respective geographical distribution, and thus i don't imagine Thracians proper (even the ones close to the coast) being much different than maybe having a little drift to the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    No, Minoans are largely indigenous to the Aegean (~62–86%), with the exception of that "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component mentioned in the paper that ranges between ~9-32%. Their linguistic classification is another matter, and currently hypothetical. The similar autosomal profile of the Greek mainland to that of Crete, is a purely genetic matter, and yes, prior of the IE proto-Greek arrival and its subsequent branches that moved south, much of the central and southern Greek mainland seems to have had an Anatolian linguistic presence (be it IE, pre-IE, or Hurro-Urartian). As for Hurro-Urartians, they lived in a broad region encompassing northern Syria, eastern Anatolia, and Transcaucasia. Plus, i believe you have misunderstood what i shared in relation to the Mycenaeans being modeled as a mix of Minoan_Lasithi and Europe_LNBA. Minoan_Lasithi doesn't pertain necessarily to actual Minoans from Crete, but a similar autosomal profile that existed on the mainland.
    It's possible LinearA contains a form of Kartvelian. I'm going to propose a paper on this issue.
    Note that Crete and Kart-velian have the same consonants, this may not be a chance coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    It would be great, and i am sure that within this decade plenty of relevant samples will be published. But in the absence of samples i always tend to hypothesize based on respective geographical distribution, and thus i don't imagine Thracians proper (even the ones close to the coast) being much different than maybe having a little drift to the south.
    That's how I see it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Doric steppe/germanic thing in southern Greece is not going to happen, let it go.
    You cannot expect an ancient Lakonian to plot north or even close to a Northern Thracian. And speaking of regional differences the Iron Age Thracian is from Northern Bulgaria, were there any regional differences in Thrace?
    How do you explain urnfield burials......?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deird View Post
    It's possible LinearA contains a form of Kartvelian. I'm going to propose a paper on this issue.
    Note that Crete and Kart-velian have the same consonants, this may not be a chance coincidence.
    But is that an endonym or an exonym? Egyptian sources, two of which even have approximate transliteration of entire sentences in what they said was the language of Cretans, named Crete Keftiu. Wasn't it likely that the Minoans themselves called their island something like Keftiu​ instead of Crete?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I am only aware of the Greek paper that i mentioned in this thread some four months ago. As has already been mentioned, some of those samples have been shown in a preliminary presentation almost two and a half years ago, and will be part of an actual publication that is expected in the next two-three years. Here is the small exchange that i had with the scientist who made the presentation.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page79?p=597576&viewfull=1#post597576
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=597717&viewfull=1#post597717
    Now, the paper will probably include Greek samples from a number of periods. I say this because the scientist confirms in his message that there are additional samples for analysis, plus, in the preliminary presentation which you can watch here
    , and specifically on the relevant table shown at 14:17, Greek samples from four different timelines and locations are shown. Namely, a Neolithic (6000 BCE) sample from Peloponnese, an EBA/MBA (3300-1600 BCE) sample from Lefkada, many samples from the Classical Greek (478-430 BCE) city of ancient Ambracia, and two Byzantine Greek (11th century CE) samples from Heraklion in Crete.
    Eurogenes says a Mycenaean R1b-M269 sample exists and might be released in an upcoming study later this year, and that there’s no R1a yet in Mycenaean samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Eurogenes says a Mycenaean R1b-M269 sample exists and might be released in an upcoming study later this year, and that there’s no R1a yet in Mycenaean samples.
    You just reminded me to update you on something i learned on Monday and had totally forgotten about it. After our little exchange on Saturday, i decided to re-watch the aforementioned preliminary presentation by Nikos Psonis, and at the end of it i learned something that i hadn't grasped the first time i watched it. Psonis actually states after 23:52 that a future publication will show the relationship between Archaic/Classical Corinth and its colony of ancient Ambracia. So i decided to clarify if this is what he meant by additional samples back in February and sent him a new message. I also asked him whether the non-Ambracian aforementioned samples of the table at 14:17 will be included. Here is a translation of his answer.

    "
    Hello Demetrios,

    The samples from Ambracia are in the same project as the ones from Corinth. The sample from Lefkada is pending publication (expected at the end of the year) as part of an anthropological/archaeological study, but it didn't have much DNA and we were only able to detect its sex (male). The rest (he meant the one Neolithic Greek and two Byzantine Greek samples from the table at 14:17) were part of pilot studies to check for protocols. These last ones aren't expected to be published soon but only in the future with additional samples. It is a time consuming and above all costly process.

    Good luck,
    Nikos"

    I then asked him whether the Lefkada sample would be appropriate for PCA analysis, and whether it was from the EBA/MBA burial mound cemetery of Lefkada in Steno and Skaros, considering its date (3300-1600 BCE). Here is a translation of his answer.

    "
    It is from a new excavation that will be published along with the sample. I don't have permission from the archaeologists to say more. There was very little DNA for any analysis other than gender identification.

    Sincerely,
    Nikos
    "

    So, to sum things up. There is a publication that will include at least one low-quality EBA/MBA sample from Lefkada at the end of the year. And then there is a paper that will certainly include numerous Archaic/Classical Greek samples from ancient Ambracia and Corinth, expected in the next two-three years.

    As for Eurogenes, i can only hope he has good sources. I wouldn't say no to more Mycenaean samples, and if any of them indeed possess an R1b-M269 paternal haplogroup it wouldn't surprise me personally. But till now it appears these are only rumors awaiting confirmation by a publication.

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    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You just reminded me to update you on something i learned on Monday and had totally forgotten about it. After our little exchange on Saturday, i decided to re-watch the aforementioned preliminary presentation by Nikos Psonis, and at the end of it i learned something that i hadn't grasped the first time i watched it. Psonis actually states after 23:52 that a future publication will show the relationship between Archaic/Classical Corinth and its colony of ancient Ambracia. So i decided to clarify if this is what he meant by additional samples back in February and sent him a new message. I also asked him whether the non-Ambracian aforementioned samples of the table at 14:17 will be included. Here is a translation of his answer.

    "
    Hello Demetrios,

    The samples from Ambracia are in the same project as the ones from Corinth. The sample from Lefkada is pending publication (expected at the end of the year) as part of an anthropological/archaeological study, but it didn't have much DNA and we were only able to detect its sex (male). The rest (he meant the one Neolithic Greek and two Byzantine Greek samples from the table at 14:17) were part of pilot studies to check for protocols. These last ones aren't expected to be published soon but only in the future with additional samples. It is a time consuming and above all costly process.

    Good luck,
    Nikos"

    I then asked him whether the Lefkada sample would be appropriate for PCA analysis, and whether it was from the EBA/MBA burial mound cemetery of Lefkada in Steno and Skaros, considering its date (3300-1600 BCE). Here is a translation of his answer.

    "
    It is from a new excavation that will be published along with the sample. I don't have permission from the archaeologists to say more. There was very little DNA for any analysis other than gender identification.

    Sincerely,
    Nikos
    "

    So, to sum things up. There is a publication that will include at least one low-quality EBA/MBA sample from Lefkada at the end of the year. And then there is a paper that will certainly include numerous Archaic/Classical Greek samples from ancient Ambracia and Corinth, expected in the next two-three years.

    As for Eurogenes, i can only hope he has good sources. I wouldn't say no to more Mycenaean samples, and if any of them indeed possess an R1b-M269 paternal haplogroup it wouldn't surprise me personally. But till now it appears these are only rumors awaiting confirmation by a publication.
    If it’s true that R1b-M269 was found among Mycenaeans Eupedia did a good job figuring it could be there. Here is a quote from the Eupedia R1b page:

    ”The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (probably also Z2103) to Greece”

    So the upcoming sample could be Z2103, and this sub-branch is prevalent in the modern Balkans?




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