Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Dimanto Ruben]

While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.

I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.

[Demetrios]

I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.

Well, that is a known fact obviously. Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Mycenaeans for example despite being relatively close. Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews tend to do though. The aforementioned paper had also the following to say, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

[Dimanto Ruben]

Yes, I've read the paper already.

Well, that is a known fact obviously. Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Mycenaeans for example despite being relatively close. Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews tend to do though. The aforementioned paper had also the following to say, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

[Ralphie Boy]

I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.

True. Genetic closeness is seen between Greece, Sicily and south Italy in multiple studies, implying old genetic relationships. A few mainland Greeks overlap with Sicilians and a number are close to them. Would be very surprised to see Archaic through Medieval Greeks being very far outside of the area encompassing Mycenaeans, Minoans and modern people of the aforementioned regions.

[Palermo Trapani]

My distances vs. Mycenaean and Minoans using, Dodecad 12B, Eurogenes K13 and K15. I get closer distances to the Mycenaean Greeks so my results are in line with what all the extant studies have demonstrated.

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
11.55112549	I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
12.32164762	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.46343452	I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
13.62262456	I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
17.08555823	I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
18.31004369	I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
18.89246675	I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
21.19933961	I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
21.43358346	I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
28.46546328	I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
30.89318048	I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
10.35133325	I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
10.48649608	I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
14.96395001	I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
15.57234086	I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
16.94984071	I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
10.46008604	Mycenaean_I9041
12.84337962	Mycenaean_I9006
17.12174057	Minoan_Lasithi_I9005
20.82740022	Minoan_Lasithi_I0074
22.76743288	Minoan_Lasithi_I0073

[Demetrios]

My distances vs. Mycenaean and Minoans using, Dodecad 12B, Eurogenes K13 and K15. I get closer distances to the Mycenaean Greeks so my results are in line with what all the extant studies have demonstrated.

I agree. By the way, you had even closer results through Dodecad K7b, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page81?p=601025&viewfull=1#post601025.

[Palermo Trapani]

I agree. By the way, you had even closer results through Dodecad K7b, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page81?p=601025&viewfull=1#post601025.

Demetrios: Thanks, I forgot about those. I don't have those Dodecad K7 coordinates saved on my hard drive. Thanks for the link, I need to get those saved so I can run them again.

[Palermo Trapani]

Demetrios: Thanks my friend for reminding me about my Dodecad K7 distances, I went back to that thread and saved the Ancient Greek Dodecad K7 coordinates that Jovialis provided.

Cheers

[Demetrios]

Demetrios: Thanks my friend for reminding me about my Dodecad K7 distances, I went back to that thread and saved the Ancient Greek Dodecad K7 coordinates that Jovialis provided.

Cheers

Yeah, no worries. By the way, it seems the Mycenaean samples through Dodecad K7b give good distances for the Greek average as well, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page81?p=601069&viewfull=1#post601069. I also like the modern distances it gives.

[ihype02]

Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?

[Demetrios]

Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?

The modern samples used in the "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years (2019)" paper are taken from the "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans (2014)", therefore there were 11 Sicilian samples as this following table attests, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/table/T2/?report=objectonly, as well as page 60 of its supplementary information.

[bigsnake49]

Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?

For me Eurogenes K13 but I have no idea about the rest of the people.

[Demetrios]

Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?

Forgot to answer the second question. I personally like Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K7b (as aforementioned).

[ihype02]

I always thought that the Ancient DNA papers are done within 1-3 years, I never knew that it takes so long.

[Wanderer]

Pontic Greeks are similar to modern Lazes but not identical, they can be modelled as Laz plus 10-15% Ionic. We need samples right before the Greek colonization though to be sure.

Pontic greeks were mostly natives by the black sea who became hellenized culturally.

[ihype02]

Davidski:
''The Medieval samples that I've seen are from North Macedonia. They look like modern Balkan Slavs.
There's a huge genetic shift in Macedonia from the Iron Age/Hellenistic period to the Middle Ages, and it's obviously a Slavic-inspired shift.
But the Slavs are not like Poles or Ukrainians. They're most similar to Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians etc.''

The up-comming paper is going to reveal that Slavs not Dorians or Goths or Celts are the ultimate source of the northern shift of the Balkans if Davidski is right.

[Angela]

As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.

Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.

The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.

All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.

Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.

There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.

He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.

The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.

[iluvatar]

Davidski:
''The Medieval samples that I've seen are from North Macedonia. They look like modern Balkan Slavs.
There's a huge genetic shift in Macedonia from the Iron Age/Hellenistic period to the Middle Ages, and it's obviously a Slavic-inspired shift.
But the Slavs are not like Poles or Ukrainians. They're most similar to Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians etc.''

The up-comming paper is going to reveal that Slavs not Dorians or Goths or Celts are the ultimate source of the northern shift of the Balkans if Davidski is right.

He has also shared the following though on his blog and anthrogenica:
'' Expect some significant substructures in the Bronze Age Greek world, mostly along the Mycenaean > Crete Armenoi cline.

So not all of the extra steppe admix in Greeks today is from Slavs, or even the Iron Age and Hellenistic periods.''

and:
''Heard some stuff...

- Mesolithic Greeks are like Barcin farmers (or wrongly dated)

- Bronze Age samples range from quite a bit of steppe (clearly more than the current Mycenaeans) to basically none

- Iron Age/Hellenistic/Roman samples are also very heterogeneous, some clearly Anatolian

Let's wait and see.''

So the few mycenean samples we currently have might not be giving us the whole story, even though they are probably fairly representantive for later Greeks.

Having said that, there are in fact more northern shifted Greeks in the bronze age even. Whether steppe is increased in the early iron age by Dorians it will be interesting to see, but i dont expect much difference. Perhaps it will be more evenly distributed among the samples as a result of admixture with northern Greek tribes but who knows.

[Angela]

Yes, well, most of what was published on both those sites about the Moots paper on the ancient Romans before it came out turned out to be wildly inaccurate, so, I'll wait until I have the paper in my hands to draw any conclusions.

Crete Armenoi is Tuscan like. So, making it sound like they had a lot of steppe is silly.

[ihype02]

He has also shared the following though on his blog and anthrogenica:
'' Expect some significant substructures in the Bronze Age Greek world, mostly along the Mycenaean > Crete Armenoi cline.

So not all of the extra steppe admix in Greeks today is from Slavs, or even the Iron Age and Hellenistic periods.''

and:
''Heard some stuff...

- Mesolithic Greeks are like Barcin farmers (or wrongly dated)

- Bronze Age samples range from quite a bit of steppe (clearly more than the current Mycenaeans) to basically none

- Iron Age/Hellenistic/Roman samples are also very heterogeneous, some clearly Anatolian

Let's wait and see.''

So the few mycenean samples we currently have might not be giving us the whole story, even though they are probably fairly representantive for later Greeks.

Having said that, there are in fact more northern shifted Greeks in the bronze age even. Whether steppe is increased in the early iron age by Dorians it will be interesting to see, but i dont expect much difference. Perhaps it will be more evenly distributed among the samples as a result of admixture with northern Greek tribes but who knows.

Who ever said that all extra steppe admix is from Slavs? In fact Slavs are the most northernmost invaders and migrants (or at least in top 2) in the history of Greece so by taking in consideration Venetians, Albanians and others will only deflate the Myceanean-like admixture in Greeks, because they are closer to Greeks than the Northern Slavs are.

Why is ( formerly mainland-Doric colonized) Calabria the closest to Myceaneans? In fact this Thracian seem to be even closer than Greek Islanders.
Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
0.04095196 BGR_IA
0.04621737 Italian_Calabria
0.04809307 Italian_Campania
0.04995370 Italian_Apulia
0.04999673 Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882 Sicilian_East
0.05100425 Greek_Kos
0.05364111 Italian_Jew
0.05422879 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403 Italian_Molise
0.05562512 Greek_Crete
0.05592299 Greek_Izmir
0.05626354 Maltese

[ihype02]

As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.

Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.

The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.

All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.

Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.

There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.

He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.

The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.

By the 9th century Bulgarians might have been Serbian-like. IMO Slavs of Bulgaria before they were mixed with locals were Slovenian-like (but not western) genetically but that is just a bet not something I can prove. I believe the autosomal impact of the Celts and Goths/Germanic people was negligible. Especially for Goths.

[ihype02]

As usual imo Davidski makes no sense to me.

Romanians and Serbs are not SLAVS. They're Balkanites who happen to have more East European than, say, Greeks or Albanians.

The Slavic migrations, like the Lombards ones or the Gallic ones had progressively less impact the further south it traveled.

All you have to do is look at any autosomal analysis.

Some of the "northern" shift may also be Celtic etc. They were in some areas for a long time.

There's only one way to know the specifics here, and that is to have an ancient sample from one of the migrating Slavic speaking tribes, and ancient samples from the period before that from both, say, Romania and Serbia, and then a bit later from Macedonia and Thessaly and lower Greece.

He just confuses everyone with gibberesh.

The Dorians are from a completely different period. Again, the only way to know what they were like, and the impact upon the autosomal composition of the locals is to compare one from a documented, more northern "Dorian" grave, and an ancient sample from, say, the Peloponnese before their arrival.

He is just saying that the Slavic samples in the Republic of Northern Macedonia were like modern Serbs and Romanians, I don't know which time but probably the end of the first millennium.
The Celtic migration in Thrace/Bulgaria happened in the Hellenistic period around 3th century BC.

[iluvatar]

Why is ( formerly mainland-Doric colonized) Calabria the closest to Myceaneans? In fact this Thracian seem to be even closer than Greek Islanders.

The Thracian is closer than Greek islanders are because it is Anatolia Neolithic heavy, like the Myceneans(they too had anatolian bronze age admixture just less), compared to islanders and south italians, both of which require aditional steppe and anatolia bronze age admixture to get to their modern position.

Peloponnesians can be modeled with more Mycenean than either islanders or south Italians (as would one expect),but this is not the point, since if what Davidski says is true the ancient Greeks were quite heterogeneous (as you saw he mentioned some samples with clear origin from Anatolia). I dont know what pre greek southern Italy was like before the Greeks came, nor do i know what the majority of the Greeks settling there were like. Looking at modern samples of relatively similar populations will be of little use for the matter at hand. Rhodes was also Doric but their genetic base is mostly anatolia bronze age unlike the more Anatolia Neolithic heavy base of peloponessians (meaning pre slavic Peloponnesians were different than pre slavic rhodians, so them beign in antiquity both Doric means little). Chances are this was the case before the mycenaeans settled there even, but we'll see.

Who ever said that all extra steppe admix is from Slavs? In fact Slavs are the most northernmost invaders and migrants (or at least in top 2) in the history of Greece so by taking in consideration Celts, Venetians, Albanians and other will only deflate the Myceanean-like admixture in Greeks, because they are closer to Greeks than the Northern Slavs are.

Not every single documented migration or presence of peoples in an area leaves a genetic trace, nor does lack of documentation of this sort, mean there was no admixture. I find this sort of speculation tiresome and definitely not in any way illuminating, so how about we wait for the actual data? Im just adding what Davidski said in regards to Greece as you referenced him in regards to the balkans.I dont know if what he says is acurate, or even if my reading of it is, since the information is rather vague. We will see when the relevant data is out.

This should interest you as wel since it is also relevant to the albanians, as the pre-Slavic ancestor of the albanians were likelly similar to the pre-Slavic ancestors of the greeks, seeing as albanians are more southeastern compared to the western Balkan samples we have and do require additional Slavic as wel. I do recall him saying in an anthrogenica thread that most of the preslavic population was similar to the bulgaria iron age sample but with more steppe but i cant be bothered to check rn.

Also for the record i do believe there is substantial slavic admixture in greece. Something like 30% for most of the mainland from a Serbian like source would make sense. Propably more for the north and Albania. But again, useless to speculate, wait for the data.

[iluvatar]

Crete Armenoi is Tuscan like. So, making it sound like they had a lot of steppe is silly.

I dont think he was meaning to make it sound like they had a lot of steppe admixture. If i recall correctly the Armenoi sample had something like 30% steppe which is about as much or slightly less than most mainlanders. Its a low quality sample so calculators are bound to go crazy, but on the pca it looked closer to greeks, or about as close to Greeks as to Tuscans. Ofc he is suggesting that as the upper limit with other samples having no steppe at all. So its unlikelly all classical Greeks had as much steppe. Something between the Armenoi sample and the Mycenaean samples we have would probably still land closer to south italians on a pca.

Anyway i only brought up those rumors as a response to ihypes rumors about the Balkans, since i thought they were relevant. When the studies actually come out we will be able to see for ourselves.

[Jovialis]

30% steppe in Armenoi seems too high, as per the admixture proportions in the paper. Bergamasques are about 30% Steppe, Armenoi is south of Tuscans: