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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Look the citadel that was found in the layer corresponding to the Trojan war was compact, small. The number of arrowheads very small definitely not corresponding to a major 10 year war. A war of that size (1186 ships just on the Greek side) leaves behind a major impact on the surroundings. Let's say that for each ship there were 30 people so let's say 34,000 people living in a place for 10 years. Just their trash would have been monumental, the number of bones of animals and people or the ashes from the pyres would have been tremendous. Yet we have found very little evidence of such a war effort. The citadel was actually destroyed by an earthquake around 1300 BC. Also by 1193-1183 Myceneans and their allies were just too weak to mount any kind of a massive war. Was the Trojan war earlier? Now Troy was indeed a formidable city at its peak about 2500BC. By the purported time of the Homeric Trojan war? Not so much.

    Could there have been a raid by the Sea People about that time? Sure. A relatively local conflict with Miletus or the Luwians or Hittites or the Thracians? I think that's more likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    what you say is correct....there are too many stories about the trojan origin


    IMO, they are a branch of thracians that migrated many many centuries before

    the time circumstances connect Ilion with rather Anatolian IE languages or Hettits,
    the most possible is to be connected with Hettites as an alliance and be part of Anatolian IE groups,
    Lets not forget that Troy is also connected with the expel of Arzawa -Assuwa from Asia minor,

    Bithynoi and Thynoi migrate to Asia minor later, after Troyan war, around the Dorian descent and A' colonization,
    their origin was Strymonias which is in today Greece East Makedonia and Bulgaria.
    next to them lived the Bryges who also migrate to Phrygia,

    truth is that Thracians were allies of Troyans.
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    It will be very interesting to see that if the rumor is true about heterogeneity in post-Mycenaean ancient Greece, will it be a range of people with a little Steppe to those with Anatolian and no Steppe? Not aware of any major migrations into post-Mycenaean ancient Greece but Greeks certainly migrated outward and formed so many colonies.

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    The Sea People invasion and destruction of Hittite Empire and later the war with Ramsess III are absolutely at larger and more epic scale of that of the war of Troy. Ramsess III famous last stand, creating wall of ships in the mouth of Nile and calling every single spearmen of Egypt to defend its country from the invasion of mysterious pirates who have burned the known world to them.

    So the war of Troy either happened before the Sea People invasion or after that, probably as a conflict between Achaeans and Trojans who were part of Sea People coalition, or the third variant is that it was invaded by the Sea People.

    Imagine two world's absolute superpowers vanished, Hittite Empire completely destroyed, and Egyptian Kingdom never recovered again, being conquered consequently. The Bronze Age world collapsed, the flow of trade was disrupted. It opened the doors for new emerging era, Iron Age. The power shifted latter from MENA to Europe.

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    @Progon


    Trojans supposedly were mentioned by Egyptians as part of the sea peoples.


    From Ramses III tablet:








    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples




    This one is a bit controversial. There is no consensus if the tablet is genuine, but given the time it apeared and the reputation (accused of forgeries, not really substantiated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mellaart#Forgeries) of Mellaart who excavated Çatalhöyük site in 1961 I would not be surprised either way. Hittite was not desciphered at the time the tablet was discovered, so my guess is it would have been impossible to forge. See the below link:
    https://www.livescience.com/60629-an...ea-people.html

    "Zangger and Woudhuizen said that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Mellaart or someone else to create such a forgery. The inscription is very lengthy, and Mellaart couldn't read, much less write Luwian, they said in their paper. They also noted that nobody had deciphered Luwian until the 1950s, which means that Perrot wouldn't have been able to forge it either. Zangger and Woudhuizen added that few scholars today are able to read Luwian, much less write a lengthy inscription. They said they also don't understand why Mellaart would have wanted to create a lengthy and complex forgery, but leave it largely unpublished. [24 Amazing Archaeological Discoveries]"




    According to Eric H. Cline, 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed ISBN: 9780691140896S (I just listened to the lectures have not read the book yet) but it seems there is not enough information regarding the Sea Peoples or Troy for that matter to make any conclusions, if the invasion happened before or after the fall of Troy, or whether Troyans participated.





    My personal opinion, it happened after the fall of Troy. And the armies of the Sea Peoples were the same armies participating in the siege of Troy, who decided to take a stroll across the region sacking the Hittites, Levant, and Egypt. Would be in line with Odyseus taking 10 years to return home xD.


    Bottom line is no one knows.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    Different papers. Both rumors from Davidski. One paper has samples from medieval north Macedonia. The rumors about the Greeks were originally posted by Davidski and were shared by me since i thought they would be relevant (this is a thread about the Myceneans after all) and because Dorians were mentioned in the context of a medieval balkan paper for some reason.

    I never made any statements about Mycenean and post Mycenean Greeks, just speculated based on the rumors, which may or may not turn out to be true. The only certain thing we can glean from this (again keeping in mind they are just rumors) is that bronze and later Greeks are heterogeneous (not necessarily in a more northern direction). Nothing i posted mentioned anything about ancient greeks beign very northern or not beign southern European. Based on these rumors the maximum steppe would still be less than moderns and for all we know could have peaked during the bronze age. Im posting them again here incase people missed them:

    - Mesolithic Greeks are like Barcin farmers (or wrongly dated)

    - Bronze Age samples range from quite a bit of steppe (clearly more than the current Myceneans) to basically none

    - Iron Age/Hellenistic/Roman samples are also very heterogeneous, some clearly Anatolian

    there were also other tidbits posted by Davidski that i cant be bothered to look for right now, some of which i posted previously

    Again
    just rumors, don't shoot the messenger.
    Didn’t mean for it to sound like that.:)

    If all of this comes from that confused excerpt eurogenes posted on his blog from the Bulgarian man I would place absolutely no credence in it. It sounds like nonsense. Thank God they turned the samples over to the Reich Lab.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    @Progon

    Trojans supposedly were mentioned by Egyptians as part of the sea peoples.

    From Ramses III tablet:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

    This one is a bit controversial. There is no consensus if the tablet is genuine, but given the time it apeared and the reputation (accused of forgeries, not really substantiated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mellaart#Forgeries) of Mellaart who excavated Çatalhöyük site in 1961 I would not be surprised either way. Hittite was not desciphered at the time the tablet was discovered, so my guess is it would have been impossible to forge. See the below link:
    https://www.livescience.com/60629-an...ea-people.html

    "Zangger and Woudhuizen said that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Mellaart or someone else to create such a forgery. The inscription is very lengthy, and Mellaart couldn't read, much less write Luwian, they said in their paper. They also noted that nobody had deciphered Luwian until the 1950s, which means that Perrot wouldn't have been able to forge it either. Zangger and Woudhuizen added that few scholars today are able to read Luwian, much less write a lengthy inscription. They said they also don't understand why Mellaart would have wanted to create a lengthy and complex forgery, but leave it largely unpublished. [24 Amazing Archaeological Discoveries]"

    According to Eric H. Cline, 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed ISBN: 9780691140896S (I just listened to the lectures have not read the book yet) but it seems there is not enough information regarding the Sea Peoples or Troy for that matter to make any conclusions, if the invasion happened before or after the fall of Troy, or whether Troyans participated.



    My personal opinion, it happened after the fall of Troy. And the armies of the Sea Peoples were the same armies participating in the siege of Troy, who decided to take a stroll across the region sacking the Hittites, Levant, and Egypt. Would be in line with Odyseus taking 10 years to return home xD.

    Bottom line is no one knows.
    I find this relative video by "Epimetheus" adequate, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ycOut4qkFk. Especially when you combined it with the Homeric narrative of some 1,186 Mycenaean ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships) involved in the conquest of Troy. That was likely the biggest naval force of the time. Then again, some quotes from the Odyssey might also relate. For example, in Odyssey's Book/Rhapsody 4 it says "Menelaus overheard him and said, "No one, my sons, can hold his own with Jove, for his house and everything about him is immortal; but among mortal men—well there may be another who has as much wealth as I have, or there may not; but at all events I have travelled much and have undergone much hardship, for it was nearly eight years before I could get home with my fleet. I went to Cyprus, Phœnicia and the Egyptians; I went also to the Ethiopians, the Sidonians, and the Erembrians, and to Libya where the lambs have horns as soon as they are born, and the sheep lamb down three times a year. Every one in that country, whether master or man, has plenty of cheese, meat, and good milk, for the ewes yield all the year round. But while I was travelling and getting great riches among these people, my brother was secretly and shockingly murdered through the perfidy of his wicked wife, so that I have no pleasure in being lord of all this wealth.". In Odyssey's Book/Rhapsody 14 it shows Odysseus sharing the following, "Mars and Minerva made me doughty in war; when I had picked my men to surprise the enemy with an ambuscade I never gave death so much as a thought, but was the first to leap forward and spear all whom I could overtake. Such was I in battle, but I did not care about farm work, nor the frugal home life of those who would bring up children. My delight was in ships, fighting, javelins, and arrows—things that most men shudder to think of; but one man likes one thing and another another, and this was what I was most naturally inclined to. Before the Achæans went to Troy, nine times was I in command of men and ships on foreign service, and I amassed much wealth. I had my pick of the spoil in the first instance, and much more was allotted to me later on.". All these and more correlate a lot with the Sea Peoples phenomenon. The descriptions of the Aeneid, presenting Trojan survivors under Aeneas could also correlate since we know that he settled in northern Africa for a period before moving on to Italy. The Sea Peoples were most likely a confederation of a number of different people from Sardinia, Sicily, the Aegean, western Anatolia, and Cyprus, that plundered the Bronze Age world, probably after some kind of administrative collapse due to a combination of catastrophic events like the ones suggested by Dr. Eric Cline (droughts, famine, migrations/invasions, revolutions, disruption of trade, earthquakes, etc.) forcing many of the involved people to migrate or simply travel and plunder (like Odysseus seems to have done even prior of the war - if it was real after all) the Eastern Mediterranean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I find this relative video by "Epimetheus" adequate, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ycOut4qkFk. Especially when you combined it with the Homeric narrative of some 1,186 Mycenaean ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships) involved in the conquest of Troy. That was likely the biggest naval force of the time. Then again, some quotes from the Odyssey might also relate. For example, in Odyssey's Book/Rhapsody 4 it says "Menelaus overheard him and said, "No one, my sons, can hold his own with Jove, for his house and everything about him is immortal; but among mortal men—well there may be another who has as much wealth as I have, or there may not; but at all events I have travelled much and have undergone much hardship, for it was nearly eight years before I could get home with my fleet. I went to Cyprus, Phœnicia and the Egyptians; I went also to the Ethiopians, the Sidonians, and the Erembrians, and to Libya where the lambs have horns as soon as they are born, and the sheep lamb down three times a year. Every one in that country, whether master or man, has plenty of cheese, meat, and good milk, for the ewes yield all the year round. But while I was travelling and getting great riches among these people, my brother was secretly and shockingly murdered through the perfidy of his wicked wife, so that I have no pleasure in being lord of all this wealth.". In Odyssey's Book/Rhapsody 14 it shows Odysseus sharing the following, "Mars and Minerva made me doughty in war; when I had picked my men to surprise the enemy with an ambuscade I never gave death so much as a thought, but was the first to leap forward and spear all whom I could overtake. Such was I in battle, but I did not care about farm work, nor the frugal home life of those who would bring up children. My delight was in ships, fighting, javelins, and arrows—things that most men shudder to think of; but one man likes one thing and another another, and this was what I was most naturally inclined to. Before the Achæans went to Troy, nine times was I in command of men and ships on foreign service, and I amassed much wealth. I had my pick of the spoil in the first instance, and much more was allotted to me later on.". All these and more correlate a lot with the Sea Peoples phenomenon. The descriptions of the Aeneid, presenting Trojan survivors under Aeneas could also correlate since we know that he settled in northern Africa for a period before moving on to Italy. The Sea Peoples were most likely a confederation of a number of different people from Sardinia, Sicily, the Aegean, western Anatolia, and Cyprus, that plundered the Bronze Age world, probably after some kind of administrative collapse due to a combination of catastrophic events like the ones suggested by Dr. Eric Cline (droughts, famine, migrations/invasions, revolutions, disruption of trade, earthquakes, etc.) forcing many of the involved people to migrate or simply travel and plunder (like Odysseus seems to have done even prior of the war - if it was real after all) the Eastern Mediterranean.
    Believe it or not Odysseus was the first book I read. It was a prose adaptation of the verse, I read it during the Summer of third grade (took me quite a while).
    And I concur, Dr. Cline seems to have a valid hypothesis. I know Progon said that the Troyan war was "absolutely" not at the level of the Sea Peoples invasion, but looking at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...War_characters to me it seems the closest thing to a "world war" for that time(even Aethiopians participated).
    So I imagine there had to be some circumstantial, environmental or non anthro-related causes to create such great conflicts (Troy, Sea Peoples) and the collapse of almost all civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean (kind of the epicenter of the Western World at the time). And I am guessing if a bunch of states with a bunch of soldiers are already gathered at the time, they might as well take all those ships you mentioned and keep looting, rather than return to the undermanned farms of their villages and cause a famine at home, that is if famine didn't start the whole conflict to begin with.

    PS: The fact that that lecture has 5 million views gives me hope that anthropology / history "can into" mainstream entertainment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Believe it or not Odysseus was the first book I read. It was a prose adaptation of the verse, I read it during the Summer of third grade (took me quite a while).
    And I concur, Dr. Cline seems to have a valid hypothesis. I know Progon said that the Troyan war was "absolutely" not at the level of the Sea Peoples invasion, but looking at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...War_characters to me it seems the closest thing to a "world war" for that time(even Aethiopians participated).
    So I imagine there had to be some circumstantial, environmental or non anthro-related causes to create such great conflicts (Troy, Sea Peoples) and the collapse of almost all civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean (kind of the epicenter of the Western World at the time). And I am guessing if a bunch of states with a bunch of soldiers are already gathered at the time, they might as well take all those ships you mentioned and keep looting, rather than return to the undermanned farms of their villages and cause a famine at home, that is if famine didn't start the whole conflict to begin with.

    PS: The fact that that lecture has 5 million views gives me hope that anthropology / history "can into" mainstream entertainment.
    I agree. Let me also add that there used to be an Epic Cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Cycle), which included the Iliad and the Odyssey, but most of which is lost today, only small fragments exist. Its lost Epics could have included a lot more information that relate to the Sea Peoples phenomenon. The Trojan war was not only the Iliad; the Iliad describes events of 50 days of the 10-year war. The war raged all over the place until it reached the events in the Iliad. Furthermore, like you rightly pointed out it does seem like a world war of sorts. Troy had indeed many Allies. Interesting note since you mention the Aethiopians. Their leader Memnon was considered to be almost Achilles' equal in skill, something which would make him second in skill of all the combatants who took part in the war, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology).

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    Sea peoples also Destroy Myceneans,

    I post that to prevade any misunderstanding.
    Minoans seems to was a kind of police at sea, even after the collapse of Crete by Thera Volcanoe, we do not have such phaenomena.
    by their fall we see many, 2 biggest succesors were Myceneans and Troyans, they were about to monopolize what Minoans left behind. but that lead them to war, Thoukidides syndrom, we also see it at Peloponese wars.

    There was a search about Crete and sea peoples,
    Crete also suffered from sea peoples, and we have devastation of population from low lands to high rocks and cliffs.

    min 18:00 and after.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    The Sea People invasion and destruction of Hittite Empire and later the war with Ramsess III are absolutely at larger and more epic scale of that of the war of Troy. Ramsess III famous last stand, creating wall of ships in the mouth of Nile and calling every single spearmen of Egypt to defend its country from the invasion of mysterious pirates who have burned the known world to them.

    So the war of Troy either happened before the Sea People invasion or after that, probably as a conflict between Achaeans and Trojans who were part of Sea People coalition, or the third variant is that it was invaded by the Sea People.

    Imagine two world's absolute superpowers vanished, Hittite Empire completely destroyed, and Egyptian Kingdom never recovered again, being conquered consequently. The Bronze Age world collapsed, the flow of trade was disrupted. It opened the doors for new emerging era, Iron Age. The power shifted latter from MENA to Europe.
    unsure ...how much of this site is correct.............but a lot makes sense

    https://luwianstudies.org/who-are-the-luwians/
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Didn’t mean for it to sound like that.:)

    If all of this comes from that confused excerpt eurogenes posted on his blog from the Bulgarian man I would place absolutely no credence in it. It sounds like nonsense. Thank God they turned the samples over to the Reich Lab.
    I have heard even Albanian Institute of Archeology has sent samples to Reich Lab.

    It seems the waiting line is long.


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    The identity of sea people will remain unknown.....
    It will be hard to find material evidence for them.....
    The rule of thumb is they should have started over the Danube.
    Take vandals for example , if no historical sources, they would have been impossible to trace.....and they destroyed Rome after circulating around Mediterranean and an incredible journey.
    Mysteries of life and death.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Didn’t mean for it to sound like that.:)
    If all of this comes from that confused excerpt eurogenes posted on his blog from the Bulgarian man I would place absolutely no credence in it. It sounds like nonsense. Thank God they turned the samples over to the Reich Lab.
    Nope that guy in the video is Bulgarian anthropologist only speaks for origin of some proto Bulgar according to him and reveal his haplogroup,his team work with Reich and they send samples to him.I haven't watched entire interview but almost translated him previously,haven't heard talking about Slavs.

    However in the backround can be seen some haploroups when he try to reveal the Bulgar result,perhaps from that study?



    Last edited by Milan.M; 26-08-20 at 09:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    Different papers. Both rumors from Davidski. One paper has samples from medieval north Macedonia. The rumors about the Greeks were originally posted by Davidski and were shared by me since i thought they would be relevant (this is a thread about the Myceneans after all) and because Dorians were mentioned in the context of a medieval balkan paper for some reason.

    I never made any statements about Mycenean and post Mycenean Greeks, just speculated based on the rumors, which may or may not turn out to be true. The only certain thing we can glean from this (again keeping in mind they are just rumors) is that bronze and later Greeks are heterogeneous (not necessarily in a more northern direction). Nothing i posted mentioned anything about ancient greeks beign very northern or not beign southern European. Based on these rumors the maximum steppe would still be less than moderns and for all we know could have peaked during the bronze age. Im posting them again here incase people missed them:

    - Mesolithic Greeks are like Barcin farmers (or wrongly dated)

    - Bronze Age samples range from quite a bit of steppe (clearly more than the current Myceneans) to basically none

    - Iron Age/Hellenistic/Roman samples are also very heterogeneous, some clearly Anatolian

    there were also other tidbits posted by Davidski that i cant be bothered to look for right now, some of which i posted previously

    Again
    just rumors, don't shoot the messenger.

    How does davidski know
    ....
    I think he got insider information....
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, mizrahi, bulgarian
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y62418*/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I have heard even Albanian Institute of Archeology has sent samples to Reich Lab.

    It seems the waiting line is long.


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    WOW. More HYPE! Do you know from what region, period? And how many samples?
    I am like a kid waiting for Christmas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Nope that guy in the video is Bulgarian anthropologist only speaks for origin of some proto Bulgar according to him and reveal his haplogroup,his team work with Reich and they send samples to him.I haven't watched entire interview but almost translated him previously,haven't heard talking about Slavs.
    However in the backround can be seen some haploroups when he try to reveal the Bulgar result,perhaps from that study?

    Very nice catch Milan. I see what looks like V13, I2a1 and R1b...
    Do you think L283 will show up among the 200-500 samples they have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    WOW. More HYPE! Do you know from what region, period? And how many samples?
    I am like a kid waiting for Christmas!
    I think it's Maliq, Early Bronze Age site from Korca. It's probably that.

    Likely we can find J2a, G2a, R1b or maybe even J2b2. It's too early for E-V13 so much inland Balkans.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y21878*

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I think it's Maliq, Early Bronze Age site from Korca. It's probably that.

    Likely we can find J2a, G2a, R1b or maybe even J2b2. It's too early for E-V13 so much inland Balkans.
    Oh, Korçë. I doubt L283 will be found there.
    Given its geographic location the results will be interesting. I mean Albanian South east borders both Greece and North Macedonia, and given the time period being EBA J2a and G2a would make more sense.



    PS: Anyone knows if L283 has any Greek basal clades? If so what is their mutation period/TMRCA?

  20. #2370
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-s10483>by96055
    MtDNA haplogroup
    from plovdiv h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    how does he know ..... ?
    does he have someone in those genetic labs who gives him information

    Ric Hern [email protected] Davidski

    "I'm waiting for a couple of really old R1b samples"

    Older than Villabruna ?
    August 25, 2020 at 6:42 PM


    Davidski said...Yes, 2-3 thousand years older than Villabruna.


    August 25, 2020 at 6:49 PM

  21. #2371
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Davidski just recently put his G25 modern populations in the trash bin, due to "uncertainty" of their validity.

  22. #2372
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Davidski just recently put his G25 modern populations in the trash bin, due to "uncertainty" of their validity.
    Wow, what a shocker! :)

    How many times did we question their validity here?

    I guess rather than be transparent, the way an academic would have to be when the results are questioned, and show precisely what samples were used and their provenance, i.e. were all four grandparents from the same area, do all the samples from the stated ethnicity cluster in approximately the same area, are enough samples from a certain area included, are close relatives excluded, of the available samples were only those "north" enough, or "south" enough, or "east" enough included, were subjective judgments made to include only the more "exotic" or atypical samples for whatever reason etc., he'll just walk away from it all.

    So, everyone can now toss all their conclusions based on the G25 Modern into the trash bin where they belong.

    Now he says the ancient G25 will continue. Who says the same subjective choosing of samples isn't done in that? How could so many people have ignored the weird results from that as well?

    This is like the replicability crisis in psychology and sociology, which is why I no longer post material from studies in those fields.

    This is why whole criminal justice divisions are kept so busy with scam artists defrauding naive people.

  23. #2373
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
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    883

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-s10483>by96055
    MtDNA haplogroup
    from plovdiv h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    so maybe his tool is not the "best" after all .....
    anyway i do believe he got someone from those genetic lab who leak for
    him information about y haplogroup results of future dna papers

  24. #2374
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wow, what a shocker! :)

    How many times did we question their validity here?

    I guess rather than be transparent, the way an academic would have to be when the results are questioned, and show precisely what samples were used and their provenance, i.e. were all four grandparents from the same area, do all the samples from the stated ethnicity cluster in approximately the same area, are enough samples from a certain area included, are close relatives excluded, of the available samples were only those "north" enough, or "south" enough, or "east" enough included, were subjective judgments made to include only the more "exotic" or atypical samples for whatever reason etc., he'll just walk away from it all.

    So, everyone can now toss all their conclusions based on the G25 Modern into the trash bin where they belong.

    Now he says the ancient G25 will continue. Who says the same subjective choosing of samples isn't done in that? How could so many people have ignored the weird results from that as well?

    This is like the replicability crisis in psychology and sociology, which is why I no longer post material from studies in those fields.

    This is why whole criminal justice divisions are kept so busy with scam artists defrauding naive people.

    He should toss the G25 Ancient Averages in the garbage too, because they are shallow, meaningless, and false constructs.

  25. #2375
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    He should toss the G25 Ancient Averages in the garbage too, because they are shallow, meaningless, and false constructs.
    Remember how many people asked you why you bothered to create a calculator based on Dienekes work when there was such a "better" tool available, i.e. Global 25? I believe one of the administrators over at anthrogenica was among them.

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