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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    You are right the word was similar to spartaro which as you said has a meaning in Greek of shaking/jumping/spasmic movement, which IMO has a similar semantic meaning to *sper - twist.

    Here is what I suspect to be an Albanian isogloss with similar semantics. I think "scatter" best describes it. But it can be used as destroy, shatter etc.

    Yeah, they certainly look related. Probably cognates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Klaus Kilian suggested that the tumulus at Mycenae-Chania was erected by Dorians from the mountainous regions of Northwestern Greece.
    However, tumuli are indeed very common in Epirus but in connection with inhumation and not with cremation.
    Therefore, Epirus can hardly be the place of origin of the people who built the tumuli at Argos and Mycenae-Chania.
    On the other hand, Birgitta Eder and R. Jung proposed that the Argive tumuli could have depended on Italian prototypes. Yet the same problem here emerges as with Kilian’s theory, just the other way round: there are many cremation burials in Italy but hardly any in tumuli. When searching for a possible place of origin, an area where cremations in tumuli were a common burial custom has to be looked for.
    In fact, it is possible to locate this region:

    it is the Western Balkans, the territory of former Yugoslavia.

    The cemeteries of the Paraćin and Donja Brnjica cultural groups compare especially well with the tumuli in the Argolid.
    These two cultural groups flourished in Southern Serbia and Kosovo mainly during the 13th century BC (Br D, LH IIIB).
    The usual form of interment was cremation burial, often in tumuli. The cremated remains of the deceased were placed in urns, which were closed with bowls. This practice can be paralleled to the inurned cremations in the Argive tumuli. "
    I never understood some of the myths about Dardanus in Arcadia, but now this Dardanian presence in Argos explains that.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I never understood some of the myths about Dardanus in Arcadia, but now this Dardanian presence in Argos explains that.
    You mean this legend correct?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus_(son_of_Zeus)

    Every time I get amazed going down this rabbit hole.
    I wonder how reliable these myths can be. But judging that even archaeological evidence backs some aspects as you mentioned... There must be some fire to the smoke.

    As a professor of mine used to rhetorically ask before bursting into asnwering himself. "Are myths truth or lie?! Myths transcend truth, they are amalgamations of many(repeating) truths into one story!!"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilus



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardan



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Klaus Kilian suggested that the tumulus at Mycenae-Chania was erected by Dorians from the mountainous regions of Northwestern Greece.
    However, tumuli are indeed very common in Epirus but in connection with inhumation and not with cremation.
    Therefore, Epirus can hardly be the place of origin of the people who built the tumuli at Argos and Mycenae-Chania.
    On the other hand, Birgitta Eder and R. Jung proposed that the Argive tumuli could have depended on Italian prototypes. Yet the same problem here emerges as with Kilian’s theory, just the other way round: there are many cremation burials in Italy but hardly any in tumuli. When searching for a possible place of origin, an area where cremations in tumuli were a common burial custom has to be looked for.
    In fact, it is possible to locate this region:

    it is the Western Balkans, the territory of former Yugoslavia.

    The cemeteries of the Paraćin and Donja Brnjica cultural groups compare especially well with the tumuli in the Argolid.
    These two cultural groups flourished in Southern Serbia and Kosovo mainly during the 13th century BC (Br D, LH IIIB).
    The usual form of interment was cremation burial, often in tumuli. The cremated remains of the deceased were placed in urns, which were closed with bowls. This practice can be paralleled to the inurned cremations in the Argive tumuli. "
    Also interesting since Chania is mentioned, is that one of our distant Berisha-Sopi cousins is from this region.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Also interesting since Chania is mentioned, is that one of our distant Berisha-Sopi cousins is from this region.
    Sorry, Mycenae-Chania seems to be different place from Chania on Crete where the cousin is. It is in Argos next to the other Argos tumuli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Klaus Kilian suggested that the tumulus at Mycenae-Chania was erected by Dorians from the mountainous regions of Northwestern Greece.
    However, tumuli are indeed very common in Epirus but in connection with inhumation and not with cremation.
    Therefore, Epirus can hardly be the place of origin of the people who built the tumuli at Argos and Mycenae-Chania.
    On the other hand, Birgitta Eder and R. Jung proposed that the Argive tumuli could have depended on Italian prototypes. Yet the same problem here emerges as with Kilian’s theory, just the other way round: there are many cremation burials in Italy but hardly any in tumuli. When searching for a possible place of origin, an area where cremations in tumuli were a common burial custom has to be looked for.
    In fact, it is possible to locate this region:

    it is the Western Balkans, the territory of former Yugoslavia.

    The cemeteries of the Paraćin and Donja Brnjica cultural groups compare especially well with the tumuli in the Argolid.
    These two cultural groups flourished in Southern Serbia and Kosovo mainly during the 13th century BC (Br D, LH IIIB).
    The usual form of interment was cremation burial, often in tumuli. The cremated remains of the deceased were placed in urns, which were closed with bowls. This practice can be paralleled to the inurned cremations in the Argive tumuli. "
    Tumuli are very common in Thrace/Bulgaria. There are about 230 of them in Greek Thrace that have yet to be excavated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Mainland Greece is genetically homogeneous for most parts with some few exceptions. This is shown in both academic and non-academic PCAs.
    Even Maniotes are not as close to Sicilians as some islands.


    Many Peloponnesians overlap with Sicilians, as do Cretans. With Sicilians clustering roughly in between them.

    Cretans pulling towards the Eastern Mediterranean, and Peloponnesians positioned in the Central Mediterranean. The Mycenaeans themselves, had this same dynamic:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Many Peloponnesians overlap with Sicilians, as do Cretans. With Sicilians clustering roughly in between them.

    Cretans pulling towards the Eastern Mediterranean, and Peloponnesians positioned in the Central Mediterranean. The Mycenaeans themselves, had this same dynamic:

    A lot of people forget about this PCA. It's as clear as can be that many Peloponnesians overlap with Sicilians, that most Tuscans are west and somewhat north of Greeks, and that actually Ashkenazim are closer to Island Greeks than to Sicilians, although, of course, position on a PCA does not "necessarily" indicate gene flow from one to the other.

    Thanks for reminding people.

    I would add that mainland Greece is also not homogeneous as another PCA posted above shows. The Greek sample used in the Haak admixture chart is the one from Thessaly which was the only one available for a long time, so it makes sense it's pretty darn close to Albanians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Many Peloponnesians overlap with Sicilians, as do Cretans. With Sicilians clustering roughly in between them.

    Cretans pulling towards the Eastern Mediterranean, and Peloponnesians positioned in the Central Mediterranean. The Mycenaeans themselves, had this same dynamic:

    3 different studies have shown an overlap between Peloponnesians and northern Mainlanders. There are studies which show Albanians and Tuscans really close sometimes and sometimes Tuscans plot way more Western compared to Albanians, so I guess it depends on the method the scientist used or something like that.
    When it comes to Y-DNA Peloponnesian resemble other mainlanders by far more than Cretans.

    As for being homogeneous for example I consider Apulia and Sicilians genetically homogenous even though Apulians probably shift a little bit more northern compared to Sicilians, by homogenous I don't mean 100% alike.

    And I guess there are some remnants of a Slavophone minority in northmost Macedonia which can be considered as assimilated Bulgarians from Macedonia, so of course they would diverge genetically from Peloponessians more than Thessalians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    3 different studies have shown an overlap between Peloponnesians and northern Mainlanders. There are studies which show Albanians and Tuscans really close sometimes and sometimes Tuscans plot way more Western compared to Albanians, so I guess it depends on the method the scientist used or something like that.
    When it comes to Y-DNA Peloponnesian resemble other mainlanders by far more than Cretans.

    As for being homogeneous for example I consider Apulia and Sicilians genetically homogenous even though Apulians probably shift a little bit more northern compared to Sicilians, by homogenous I don't mean 100% alike.

    And I guess there are some remnants of a Slavophone minority in northmost Macedonia which can be considered as assimilated Bulgarians from Macedonia, so of course they would diverge genetically from Peloponessians more than Thessalians.
    They're more or less homogenous with some augmentations that distinguishes them from one another. But one could say that for many populations in the region.

    Apulia, especially Bari, would also plot on top of modern Peloponnese, as per the PCA I posted. Peloponnese range parallel from Tuscan-Central Italian-(northern-shifted)Sicilian, but more shifted to the east of those Italian populations. Albanians are also in that range, to the east of Tuscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    3 different studies have shown an overlap between Peloponnesians and northern Mainlanders. There are studies which show Albanians and Tuscans really close sometimes and sometimes Tuscans plot way more Western compared to Albanians, so I guess it depends on the method the scientist used or something like that.
    When it comes to Y-DNA Peloponnesian resemble other mainlanders by far more than Cretans.

    As for being homogeneous for example I consider Apulia and Sicilians genetically homogenous even though Apulians probably shift a little bit more northern compared to Sicilians, by homogenous I don't mean 100% alike.

    And I guess there are some remnants of a Slavophone minority in northmost Macedonia which can be considered as assimilated Bulgarians from Macedonia, so of course they would diverge genetically from Peloponessians more than Thessalians.

    Well, definitely at a higher resolution Tuscans and Northern-Central Italians are more western and distinct from Albanians, Greeks and other Balkan populations, Tuscans clearly overlap with people from the neighbouring Northern-Central Italian regions. There is overlap between some Greek population and Italians from Southern Italy though.













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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think we have gone away from thread and original papper,

    i wonder next if we compare Nords or Indians or Egyptians with Myceneans and Minoans,

    who knows
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Tumuli are very common in Thrace/Bulgaria. There are about 230 of them in Greek Thrace that have yet to be excavated.
    I agree that there are a number of tumuli yet to be excavated in Thrace which could provide an alternative proxy for those two aforementioned cemeteries, but at least for the moment those LBA graves in Argos and Mycenae-Chania do seem to have an association with the contemporary central Balkans as described by the paper, specifically with the Paracin II culture and the site of Donja Brnjica (Brnjica culture). These sites are located within Serbia and modern-day Kosovo. They are seen as preceding cultures of Iron Age Moesi (Daco-Moesian branch of Thracians) and the non-Illyrian Thracian element of Iron Age Dardanians. Here is also a map that relates from another paper.



    Having said that, the aforementioned LBA tumuli in Mycenae-Chania and in Argos did not establish a tradition and that practice accompanied by cremations ceased entirely in the Argolid right after. Which shows that we either had to do with burials of a mercenary group who after their service returned back home, or the population responsible for those graves was so small that it quickly became assimilated and thus this practice ceased. Furthermore, all of the other LBA cemeteries (constituting the majority) which included cremations burials, are associated with influence from Italy instead, and its members were fully integrated in the respective local Mycenaean communities (as the paper describes), if not of Mycenaean origin as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Well, definitely at a higher resolution Tuscans and Northern-Central Italians are more western and distinct from Albanians, Greeks and other Balkan populations, Tuscans clearly overlap with people from the neighbouring Northern-Central Italian regions. There is overlap between some Greek population and Italians from Southern Italy though.
    Very interesting that they included a "Greek Maniot" who is essentially clustering with "Sicily", in that last PCA you shared.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Very interesting that they included a "Greek Maniot" who is essentially clustering with "Sicily", in that last PCA you shared.

    If it is G25 modern, I would not necessarily believe it to be accurate. Since even Davidski questions the legitimacy of the samples, and is phasing it out. At any rate, Brick is right about Tuscans being east of Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If it is G25 modern, I would not necessarily believe it to be accurate. Since even Davidski questions the legitimacy of the samples, and is phasing it out. At any rate, Brick is right about Tuscans being east of Albanians.
    I don't know the source of it, but it did seem interesting to me. I personally haven't ordered the Global25 coordinates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Tumuli are very common in Thrace/Bulgaria. There are about 230 of them in Greek Thrace that have yet to be excavated.
    Good to keep in mind. Do we know if Thracians were putting cremations into tumuli or just burying into tumulia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I agree that there are a number of tumuli yet to be excavated in Thrace which could provide an alternative proxy for those two aforementioned cemeteries, but at least for the moment those LBA graves in Argos and Mycenae-Chania do seem to have an association with the contemporary central Balkans as described by the paper, specifically with the Paracin II culture and the site of Donja Brnjica (Brnjica culture). These sites are located within Serbia and modern-day Kosovo. They are seen as preceding cultures of Iron Age Moesi (Daco-Moesian branch of Thracians) and the non-Illyrian Thracian element of Iron Age Dardanians. Here is also a map that relates from another paper.
    The linguistic assumptions here are not based on linguistic evidence, it is an assumption. They are the opinion of MILORAD STOJIC and should not be taken as something like a confirmed thing. Mysians and Dardanians moved into Troy together, so it seems they are connected, and the Brnjica zone falls within the heart of Dardania, not Mysia.

    Linguists like Vanja Stanisic also thought Dardanians as potentially a stratum neither Thracian nor Illyrian, part of a group with Mysian and Phrygian, so this is potentially evidence for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The linguistic assumptions here are not based on linguistic evidence, it is an assumption. They are the opinion of MILORAD STOJIC and should not be taken as something like a confirmed thing. Mysians and Dardanians moved into Troy together, so it seems they are connected, and the Brnjica zone falls within the heart of Dardania, not Mysia.

    Linguists like Vanja Stanisic also thought Dardanians as potentially a stratum neither Thracian nor Illyrian, part of a group with Mysian and Phrygian, so this is potentially evidence for that.
    I don't want to expand on this, but yes, i basically cited Milorad Stojić, http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2006/0350-02410656073S.pdf. He actually makes a reference to linguists himself although he doesn't expand on that. A citation of his to Garašanin (1983) could maybe elaborate but i don't have the time to dwell in it. As for boundaries, during the Roman period we had the provinces of "Moesia Superior" and "Moesia Inferior", with the former encompassing both the aforementioned cultures of Paracin and Brnjica, and much of Iron Age Dardania as well. But obviously Dardanians are a distinct group as attested by ancient authors; the Daco-Moesian or Moesian grouping pertains to a more general classification. Similar to the case of Triballi who are included in it.



    Other than that, during the Roman era "Moesia Superior" was probably the most multi-ethnic region in the Balkans. It seems four linguistic groups were found in the region of Dardania, namely Illyrian proper, Dalmatian-Pannonian, Thracian proper and Moesian (sub-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian). And as if those were not enough, the Romans in the 1st century CE allowed two mass relocations of more than 150,000 Geto-Dacians (trans-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian) to Moesia Superior and Moesia Inferior (50,000 in the years of Augustus and over 100,000 in the years of Nero).



    Now linguistically i haven't really dwell deep into Dardanian, but i have read that there was an evident Thracian element with an Illyrian influence at the western borders. For example read the following.



    Last, you know i disagree on Phrygian association but let's not expand on all these since they are unrelated to the thread.

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If it is G25 modern, I would not necessarily believe it to be accurate. Since even Davidski questions the legitimacy of the samples, and is phasing it out. At any rate, Brick is right about Tuscans being east of Albanians.

    It's not G25 modern, Tuscans like all other Northern-Central Italians are west of Albanians, not east.

    The lack of accuracy of the G25 is mainly due to G25 itself rather than to modern samples in my opinion. Clearly Davidski will never admit it, he prefers to question the legitimacy of the modern samples that are the same used in academic studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    It's not G25 modern, Tuscans like all other Northern-Central Italians are west of Albanians, not east.

    The lack of accuracy of the G25 is mainly due to G25 itself rather than to modern samples in my opinion. Clearly Davidski will never admit it, he prefers to question the legitimacy of the modern samples that are the same used in academic studies.
    That is correct! I meant to say Tuscans are west of Albanians. Sorry for the mental lapse.

    Also, I agree G25 itself is probably inherently the issue.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    drone viseo from Mycaenae,

    offcourse the recent video compares the before and after fire looking


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    The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
    Interesting how the distance sharply increases once you leave Peloponnese.

    So far I notice a

    1) Central, Northern, and Western Balkans substrate (BA Croatia)
    2) An Aegean/Cretan substrate
    3) Don’t know if an intermediate between the previous 2 or it’s own group of Southern and South-Eastern based on the Thracian and Peloponnesian.

    Curious to know what’s the distance of the modern Greeks to these Cretan samples.

    Thank you for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
    Nice application of the model you put together Jovialis.

    Could you post more Mycenean - BA/IA Bulgarian comparisons.

    My intuition keeps nudging me towards the North Hypothesis for Myceneans. And although this particular sample confirms my suspicions, it is far too little. Maybe if more samples are consistent a more reliable picture can be painted.

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