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    13 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    YEAH! Finally.

    See: Lazaridis et al
    https://www.nature.com/articles/natu...o4hKeBf7fel4E9



    "The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1, 2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4, 5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6, 7, 8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1, 6, 9 or Armenia4, 9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations."

    Admixture analysis- See:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re23310_SF1.html

    Y dna from page 52 of the supplement:
    Y dna from Lazardis et al on ancient Greek dna.PNG

    The Bronze Age Anatolia individual:
    "This individual wasancestral for the major subclade3 P58 (J1a2b; previously designated3 J1e) and could thus bedesignated as J1a(xJ1a2b)."

    "I0070 (Minoan from Lasithi)This individual was derived for mutation M319:15467785T->A (J2a1d) as well as upstream mutationsL26:22942897T->C (J2a1) and M410:2751678A->G, L212:22711465T->C (J2a). He was not foundto be ancestral for any downstream mutations and could be designated as J2a1d. Haplogroup M319was found4 at a frequency of 8.8% in one sample set of 193 present-day Cretans (95% confidenceinterval from the binomial distribution 5.2-13.7%) and 5.4% in another set5 of 168 Cretans (95% C.I.:2.5-10%), but no examples were found in a combined sample set of 171 Greeks from three locationsnear early Neolithic settlements in mainland Greece (95% C.I: 0-2.1%). A re-analysis4 of large set of523 present-day Anatolian males6 revealed only 2 examples of M319 in this population (95% C.I.: 0-1.4%). Thus, it appears plausible that this represents a Y-chromosome lineage that existed in MinoanCrete but was at a lower (or absent) frequency in neighboring mainland Greece and Anatolia and itsoccurrence in present-day Cretans represents continuity with those of the Bronze Age."

    "I0073 (Minoan from Lasithi)This individual was derived for mutation L26:22942897T->C (J2a1) as well as upstream mutationsM410, L559, L152 (J2a). He was ancestral for several downstream haplogroups: M322:15469740C->A (J2a1a), L560:21899860C->T (J2a1b1a), M166:21764694C->T (J2a1b2), M68:21878700A->G(J2a1c), M339:2881367T->G (J2a1e), L24:14286528G->A (J2a1h), L88.2:17595842T->C andL198:17595861A->C (J2a1i). He could thus be designated as J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c,J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)."

    "I9130 (Minoan from Moni Odigitria)This individual was derived for mutations CTS946:7100848A->G (G2a2b2a) and upstream mutationsF3088:20813445G->A and M3397:21605685G->C (G2a). He was ancestral for downstreammutations CTS4803:15833180G->A (G2a2b2a1b1a2a) and Z3423:19251438G->T (G2a2b2a1c1a).He could thus be designated as G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a). G2a2 Y-chromosomeswere common in Neolithic Europe7, western Anatolia8,9, and Neolithic mainland Greece9. We havealso re-analyzed data from a recent study of central Anatolian Neolithic genomes10, determining thatthey were present there during both the Aceramic phase at Boncuklu (2 G2a2b2b samples) and later atTepecik-Çiftlik (1 G2a2a sample). Plausibly, the Minoan from Moni Odigitria who belonged to thislineage was also related to the same group of early Neolithic farmers as those from Europe, mainlandGreece, and Anatolia."

    "I9041 (Mycenaean from Galatas Apatheia in the Peloponnese)This individual was derived for mutations L26:22942897T->C and F4326:23021978A->G (J2a1) aswell as upstream mutations M410:2751678A->G, L559:21674327A->G, L152:22243566C->T,L212:22711465T->C (J2a). He was ancestral for M322:15469740C->A (J2a1a), M260:15025506G->A and M92:21904023T->C (J2a1b1), M166:21764694C->T (J2a1b2), L210:16492197A->T(J2a1b3), M68:21878700A->G (J2a1c), M339:2881367T->G (J2a1e), P81:6739856G->A (J2a1g),L207.1:6753448A->G and L24:14286528G->A (J2a1h), L88.2:17595842T->C andL198:17595861A->C (J2a1i). He could thus be designated as J2a1x(J2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c,J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)."

    "More sampling of ancient populations is needed to establish the presence (and frequency) ofhaplogroup J in the Aegean and neighboring regions). However, (i) the great time depth of itspresence in the Caucasus/Iran, together with (ii) its low frequency/absence in NeolithicGreece/Anatolia, and (iii) its appearance in the samples of our study, lead us to believe that it mayhave accompanied the genetic admixture (Neolithic Iran/Caucasus-hunter-gatherer related) that seemsto have affected all populations in our study (Supplementary Information, section 2). Thus, the Ychromosometurnover that occurred in central Europe during the Bronze Age7,19 may also haveoccurred in the Aegean, with a different set of incoming lineages."

    So we've been saying here for a long time. Perhaps it's time to put some of the more exotic explanations to rest.
    Last edited by Angela; 08-08-17 at 01:46.


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    4 members found this post helpful.
    For those interested in phenotypic data:

    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf

    Attachment 8993

    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."

    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."

    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."

    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For those interested in phenotypic data:

    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf

    Attachment 8993

    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."

    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."

    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."

    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.


    This app is actually really interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.
    I thought curly hair had African background.... Ev13


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I thought curly hair had African background.... Ev13


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    in caucasos in some parts the curly hair is more than african grape style,

    all over J2 is expand curly hair is significant %
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.
    Holy crap. He does.




    First thing that came into my mind was Takis Tsoukalas.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.
    This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.
    This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.
    This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.
    @ihype02

    What does this have to do with what Raphieboy said? Or what the dna samples are telling us? What is not so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

    EDIT:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33711-Genetics-of-the-Greek-Peleponessus/page19?p=516965&viewfull=1#post516965
    Last edited by Jovialis; 14-08-17 at 22:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    In almost all ancient Greek vases the people appear with dark hair. In mosaics they tend to be lighter though.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."
    I like this interpretation; so, modern Greeks are just middle pigmented people for hair, light and dark being the exception?
    But in fact, very dark brown hair is closer to black than to middle brown hair, what a mess! And it is not the first time I see this kind of statement, concerning rather dark pigmented Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I like this interpretation; so, modern Greeks are just middle pigmented people for hair, light and dark being the exception?
    But in fact, very dark brown hair is closer to black than to middle brown hair, what a mess! And it is not the first time I see this kind of statement, concerning rather dark pigmented Europeans.
    I was quoting someone, I think. :)

    Strictly from observation, "most",not all, Greek Islanders I've seen have dark brown to black hair.

    There is quite a large Greek population here around me, and the mainlanders very rarely have what I would consider black hair, and some have light brown hair, but the majority is still medium to dark brown.

    Our Greek members are free to criticize that. :)

    This is a "Greek" thread, so I won't run on about Italians, but I don't think I ever saw a "black" haired Italian in my parts. Dark brown hair, yes. I have it, inherited from my mother.

    My husband, on the other hand, has as close to black hair as a non Asian, non African can get, but even in his own family it's very much the minority, although present, specifically in his maternal Calabrian grandfather and his mother, from whom he inherited it. The rest are either blonde and blue eyed like his Neapolitan grandmother, or dark brown haired and brown eyed. Strangely, on his father's side, they are lighter: medium and even some light brown haired, and green or hazel eyes. You never know what you're going to get in Italy. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was quoting someone, I think. :)

    Strictly from observation, "most",not all, Greek Islanders I've seen have dark brown to black hair.

    There is quite a large Greek population here around me, and the mainlanders very rarely have what I would consider black hair, and some have light brown hair, but the majority is still medium to dark brown.

    Our Greek members are free to criticize that. :)

    This is a "Greek" thread, so I won't run on about Italians, but I don't think I ever saw a "black" haired Italian in my parts. Dark brown hair, yes. I have it, inherited from my mother.

    My husband, on the other hand, has as close to black hair as a non Asian, non African can get, but even in his own family it's very much the minority, although present, specifically in his maternal Calabrian grandfather and his mother, from whom he inherited it. The rest are either blonde and blue eyed like his Neapolitan grandmother, or dark brown haired and brown eyed. Strangely, on his father's side, they are lighter: medium and even some light brown haired, and green or hazel eyes. You never know what you're going to get in Italy. :)
    It's mostly as you write. Here is also a more specified report based on 119 samples from a paper, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497312001810#tbl0005. I was personally born blonde, but after 3 years of age or so it turned light brown, and i have light brown eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For those interested in phenotypic data:
    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf
    Attachment 8993
    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."
    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."
    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."
    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."
    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.
    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.
    Angela pretty interesting face, it does look like around 25% south Italians, Greeks and Albanians lol (no offense please)
    If this would be somewhat accurate to mycenaeneans face, and as curent dna sugest mostly j2a then can we research more about this 2 HYPOTHESIS?

    1. "The Mycenaeneans are pretty much different with the majority of current Greeks Albanians and to some extent Bulgarians" ?

    2. "THe Mycenaeneans with all their archaeology attributes were actually invaders with a population of not more than 20% who came through Anatolia or from around Anatolia" ?

    I think this correlates more with @maciamo theory although he mentions r1b z1203, and less with this study that current Greeks are highly related with Mycenaeneans

    Can we find any link or maybe any correlation of this Study with this Language study one?...it is very detailed indeed
    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1001555

    The Signal of History
    As we have shown, patterns of IBD provide ample but noisy geographic and temporal signals, which can then be connected to historical events. Rigorously making such connections is difficult, due to the complex recent history of Europe, controversy about the demographic significance of many events, and uncertainties in inferring the ages of common ancestors. Nonetheless, our results can be plausibly connected to several historical and demographic events.

    The migration period.
    One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area. The “smooth” estimates of Figure 4 (and more generally Figures 5 and S17) suggest that this increase in ancestry stems from around 1,000–2,000 ya, since during this time pairs of eastern individuals are expected to share a substantial number of common ancestors, while this is only true of pairs of noneastern individuals if they are from the same population. For example, even individuals from widely separated eastern populations share about the same amount of IBD as do two Irish individuals (see Figure S3), suggesting that this ancestral population may have been relatively small.This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]. This period begins with the Huns moving into eastern Europe towards the end of the fourth century, establishing an empire including modern-day Hungary and Romania, and continues in the fifth century as various Germanic groups moved into and ruled much of the western Roman empire. This was followed by the expansion of the Slavic populations into regions of low population density beginning in the sixth century, reaching their maximum by the 10th century [52]. The eastern populations with high rates of IBD are highly coincident with the modern distribution of Slavic languages, so it is natural to speculate that much of the higher rates were due to this expansion. The inclusion of (non-Slavic speaking) Hungary and Romania in the group of eastern populations sharing high IBD could indicate the effect of other groups (e.g., the Huns) on ancestry in these regions, or because some of the same group of people who elsewhere are known as Slavs adopted different local cultures in those regions. Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis.

    Or even this Study, although this is Neolithic and much Early period and probably would not have any link with Minoans or
    Mycenaeans
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...13433.full.pdf
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 04-01-20 at 19:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
    Ha!!! I wonder how Nordicists feel about Mycenaens being closer to Ashkenazim/Sephardic Jews and South Italians! There will be many tears shed on Stormfront over this paper.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Ha!!! I wonder how Nordicists feel about Mycenaens being closer to Ashkenazim/Sephardic Jews and South Italians! There will be many tears shed on Stormfront over this paper.
    They're not the only ones.

    Whatever will a certain person do if it turns out that Sicilians are indeed very close to ancient Greeks?

    It doesn't bear thinking about!!! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Ha!!! I wonder how Nordicists feel about Mycenaens being closer to Ashkenazim/Sephardic Jews and South Italians! There will be many tears shed on Stormfront over this paper.
    Exactly, not only the Nordicists, but also some nordicist who pretends to be a mediterranicist. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
    Nah, Philistines will cluster with ancient Egyptians and Canaanites.

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    Nice, the continuity of the groovy Greeks is proven once more. For those "naysayers", Greece strong!

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    Does this article also prove the "Dorian Invasion" in a sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Does this article also prove the "Dorian Invasion" in a sense?

    Dorian Invasion is an inner ddevastation on NW Greeks to S Greeks
    and is much much younger for at least 1500 years from the bellow
    Maybe you reffering to the Mycenean descent that came from Istros (Δουναβης)

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    Yes Yetos, you are correct. My bad here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Dorian Invasion is an inner ddevastation on NW Greeks to S Greeks
    and is much much younger for at least 1500 years from the bellow
    Maybe you reffering to the Mycenean descent that came from Istros (Δουναβης)

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