Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans
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Sicilians are not included. Sicilians are the closests to Myceaneans from modern populations according to an other PCA similar to this but it didn't have Thracians, thus I choosed this one.
IMO this ones looks better, look at Illyrians, they plot closer to Spaniards in the other PCA.
Dianatomia
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We should realize that we have in total 6 samples from pre-classical Balkans. And we are too eager to discard two samples which are close to the modern populations. In particular mainland Greeks. Two out of six samples can not be discarded.
If people further North were close to the Thracians, then waves may have migrated South and influenced the population. Crete_Armenoi may be an example of the migration of people further North who ventured South into Mycenaean Greece. Perhaps we should compare Crete_Armenoi to the Thracian.
torzio
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Angela
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Some Sicilians are within a distance of 3-4.
Angela
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It's an issue of the quality of the sample. If it's substandard because it's got too few snps then whatever inferences you draw are not reliable. Why bother?
It would be great to be so similar to an ancient person from Crete or mainland Greece; as I've said, they're some of my favorite civilizations, but I want the sample to be a good one.
SZ is from Medieval (Invasion Period) Hungary. How it got to be so close to northern/central Italians is complicated and not really known. This was a Romance speaking area long after other areas had changed language and culture. After this period the Byzantines also got control of it again. Whether the people buried in this Langobard cemetery were like the people all over the Balkans and central Eastern Europe, or were Romanized and Roman people who fled there is unknown.
Two samples? That's only one.
The Ionian identified in the Classical age was identical to Myceaneans and I seriously doubt Dorians of Corinth or even Sparta were any different. And there might have been some regional differences of course but still look at the Thracian it is nearly as close as the Sicilians are, not to mention it was taken from northern inland Bulgaria.
That sample (Crete Armenoi) was discharged as a bad quality by the scientists, themsevles, who published the study.
I suppose when we find ancient Macedonian DNA the proto-Slavic component in Greek Macedonians will decrease from 40% to 35%. Bulgarians have 45% in comparsion.
Demetrios
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Doric was the most conservative of the ancient Greek dialects, and is thus the one more akin to proto-Greek. Mycenaean (as attested on the Linear B tablets) on the other hand was an early form of Arcadocypriot, and could thus be designated as proto-Arcadocypriot. Furthermore, autosomal profiles don't equate linguistics of which we currently know more of, rendering respective classifications safe. In any case, we are observing minor autosomal differences between Mycenaeans and Thracians, and i foresee Doric samples to be somewhere in between complementing geographical distribution.
Angela
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Bulgaria_IA is a Thracians.
Ihype, do you know how many reference Southern Italian samples G25 has? Do these dots represent the whole set? Are they all Calabrians from a certain paper or is it a mix of Southern Italian people who volunteered to be part of the Eurogenes project? If this is all he has for Italy, and he has many more samples, relatively, for eastern and northern and central Europe, this PCA map is going to be totally off.
Also, what's the sample number of the Iron Age Moldovan?
As is clear from both this and the K15 PCA, there was variation among the Myceneaens, with one sample quite a bit closer to modern southern Italians and probably especially Sicilians, who would fill the space in between.
Is there any reason why the Sicilians weren't included in this sample set?
As to the classical Greek sample from Spain, how do we know he was from mainland Greece? He could have been an Islander Greek or the coast of Asia Minor, yes?
Ralphie Boy
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I would like to see the Empuries sample added to the PCA’s.
Also surprised somewhat that Turks are not relatively close to Mycenaeans, as are modern south Balkan populations (seen in heat maps).
As for classical Greeks, I would like to see if they are further east-shifted like modern Greeks, and whether the steppe ancestry seen in Mycenaeans became more diluted.
Also surprised somewhat that Turks are not relatively close to Mycenaeans, as are modern south Balkan populations (seen in heat maps).
As for classical Greeks, I would like to see if they are further east-shifted like modern Greeks, and whether the steppe ancestry seen in Mycenaeans became more diluted.
Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:
As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]
The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
Angela
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Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:
As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]
The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
Thanks for the response, ihype.
The first one in particular definitely shows why some Sicilians get distances of 2-4 with Mycenaean.
Yes, I'm aware that Phoecaea was founded from the mainland, but given that it was on the coast of Asia Minor, there is the possibility that merchants from there in later periods would not necessarily be 100% mainland in ancestry.
Until we get classical samples from mainland Greece there's still a little doubt in my mind as to whether that Empuries sample is definitely exactly what we'd see on the mainland.
Palermo Trapani
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Angela, here two PCA including Sicilians as well as Empuries:
As for Empuries, it was founded in Spain by the ancient Greeks colonists coming from Ionia, Phocea in particular. But Phocaea was not originally an Ionic colony it was founded by Phocis from mainland Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[5] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[6]
The Bronze Collapse affected the islands too it is just that the main center of the Myceanean civilisation were in the mainland so it looks more drastic there. Keep in your mind that Crete was Dorian in the Classical antiquity.
Thanks, I appreciate you including the Sicilian samples in the PCA plot.
Hawk
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From G25, i look like a mixture of Bronze Age Dalmatian and Paeonian/Macedonian with Slavic hint.
If we go by IBD sharing, instead of these old-school calculators Albanians will share more ancestry with Bronze Age Dalmatian than North Italians for sure, especially considering that one of the samples carries a very common Y-DNA among Albanians.
If we go by IBD sharing, instead of these old-school calculators Albanians will share more ancestry with Bronze Age Dalmatian than North Italians for sure, especially considering that one of the samples carries a very common Y-DNA among Albanians.
Angela
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IBD analysis is tricky because inheritance is so random. I'm not saying it's not useful, because it is, but it's just part of the picture. It's reliability would depend on who is doing it, with what tools, and the size of the group being examined.
We'll have to wait for papers examining different groups.
Using yDna, or mtDna, for that matter, is the worst way to draw such conclusions. I'm the child of a U-152 father and a U2e mother, both steppe lineages, and yet steppe is the smallest of my ancestral groups, 25-30% at the most. Founder effects in certain areas can make interpretation very difficult.
We'll have to wait for papers examining different groups.
Using yDna, or mtDna, for that matter, is the worst way to draw such conclusions. I'm the child of a U-152 father and a U2e mother, both steppe lineages, and yet steppe is the smallest of my ancestral groups, 25-30% at the most. Founder effects in certain areas can make interpretation very difficult.
Thank you but I did not make the PCA. I found it in Anthrogenica. I don't know who the author this.
Palermo Trapani
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Ok, my bad. Thanks for the clarification and thanks for posting that PCA. I am not a member at Anthrogenica.
Hawk
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All should be taken in consideration, Y-DNA, autosomal, mtDNA, in order to get a clear and full picture.
Demetrios
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Turkish people have more Turkic ancestry, in addition to representing many assimilated ethnic groups and not just one. For example, look at the following map that presents the frequencies for East Asian/Eurasian admixture in each (or rather most) Turkish province, as well as certain Greek-Anatolian/Cypriot and Turkic sub-populations in the boxes. For example, you can see that based on this, Greeks in Cyprus have a frequency of 0.93%, while the Turkish average would be around 10.88%, and contrary to common belief more concentrated in western Turkey than eastern. This also makes sense by the way, since the original Turkic populations that migrated were nomadic, and they would rationally only stop where they couldn't continue any further, namely the Sea. In addition to that, let's also consider the Anatolian invasion of Timur at the beginning of the 1400s, which could have also contributed to that distribution.
Then there is also this paper, even though a little old, http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12607764/index.pdf, namely "COMPARATIVE ANALYSES FOR THE CENTRAL ASIAN CONTRIBUTION TO ANATOLIAN GENE POOL WITH REFERENCE TO BALKANS (2006)" by Ceren Caner Berkman, that concluded for the Central Asian contribution in Anatolia to be, Y-DNA 13%, mtDNA 22%, alu insertion (autosomal) 15%, and autosomal 22%, with respect to Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uyghur region, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. And again bear in mind that the Balkans were used as comparison, so all the more relevant.
All these would autosomally differentiate most of the Turkish people. I also like the following PCA from "The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (2018)" paper because it is very detailed with both modern and ancient samples (not the Thracian sample unfortunately), https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf (page 26 for additional reference of the color-filled ancient samples seen). First of all we see the Turkish samples being far from the Mediterranean macro-cluster. And second, in relation to what we are discussing about the Mycenaeans; southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews all clustering together with the Mycenaean samples (with the exception of one that is more Neolithic-shifted). The orange color-filled triangles looking to the right pertain to Mycenaeans.
bigsnake49
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wonder what happened to part of eastern Thrace. There is a part of it close to the Evros river that has a decent amount of Turkic ancestry and then east of that all the way to Constantinople there is none. I wonder if the part where there are none are native Thracians that were islamized or islamized Balkanites from different vilayets.
I wonder what happened to part of eastern Thrace. There is a part of it close to the Evros river that has a decent amount of Turkic ancestry and then east of that all the way to Constantinople there is none. I wonder if the part where there are none are native Thracians that were islamized or islamized Balkanites from different vilayets.
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