Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Kelmendasi]

J2a very likely came later, since we only have 1 Neolithic sample. .

As far as I know, there are actually 7 Neolithic J2a samples from Europe

1) J2a-Z6055 sample from Neolithic Hungary
2) J2a-Z6048 sample I5068, from Neolithic Austria
3) J2a-Z6048 sample I5207, from Neolithic Austria
4) J2a-Y13128 from Neolithic Hungary, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6057 from Neolithic Croatia, Lengyel Culture
6) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
7) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2

 

[torzio]

There is a very big misconception about the Classical use of the word "barbarian". Initially the Greeks used the term barbarian for all non-Greek-speaking peoples, including the Egyptians, Persians, Medes and Phoenicians, emphasizing their otherness. According to Greek writers, this was because the language they spoke sounded to Greeks like gibberish represented by the sounds "bar..bar..", the alleged root of the word βάρβαρος, which is an echomimetic or onomatopoeic word. However, in various occasions, the term was also used by Greeks, especially the Athenians, to deride other Greek tribes and states (such as Epirotes, Eleans, Macedonians, Boeotians and Aeolic-speakers) but also fellow Athenians, in a pejorative and politically motivated manner. Here more about the way it was used, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Etymology.

A lot has been written because Demosthenes called Philip a "barbarian". The reason is simple: Demosthenes was a pro-democrat Athenian and Philip was his greatest political enemy. You see, Macedonia was a monarchy and an emerging power in the Greek affairs, and thus a threat to the Athenian democratic supremacy. I will repeat it here once more: the ancient Greeks - particularly the Athenians, like Demosthenes - often used the word "barbarian" to insult and/or mock other Greeks. For example, Aeschines called Demosthenes himself a "barbarian", Demosthenes called Philip, a Macedonian, and Meidias, an Athenian, both "barbarians", etc..

Here are a few examples of Greeks insulting other Greeks by calling them "barbarians":

Aeschines: "But to be free from accusation, that was a thing which depended upon fortune, and fortune cast my lot with (referring to Demosthenes, who was an Athenian) a slanderer, a barbarian, who cared not for sacrifices nor libations nor the breaking of bread together." (Aeschines, "On the Embassy", 2.183)

Demosthenes: "And yet, though he has thus become the possessor of privileges to which he has no claim, and has found a fatherland which is reputed to be of all states the most firmly based upon its laws, he seems utterly unable to submit to those laws or abide by them. His (Meidias, an Athenian) true, native barbarism and hatred of religion drive him on by force and betray the fact that he treats his present rights as if they were not his own—as indeed they are not." (Demosthenes, "Against Meidias", 21.150)

"Is he (Philip II, a Macedonian) not our enemy? Are not our possessions in his hands? Is he not a barbarian?" (Demosthenes, "Third Olynthiac", 16)

Atheneaus: "And when he was asked again, according to the account given by Hegesander, which were the greatest barbarians, the Boeotians (Greeks) or the Thessalians (Greeks), he said: 'The Eleans' (Greeks)." (Athenaeus, "The Deipnosophists", 8.42)

Plato: "Was he not reproaching Pittacus for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly, Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a barbaric tongue?" (referring to the Aeolic dialect, one of the major Greek dialects) (Plato, "Protagoras", 341c)

Aristophanes: (Strepsiades, an Athenian), "a man ignorant and barbarian." (Aristophanes, "Clouds", 491)

As for the Macedonians, we know they were Greeks. They spoke Greek, shared the same religion, cults and customs with the rest of the Greeks, and they also identified themselves as Greeks:
"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas (the Macedonians) are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history." (Herodotus, "Histories", 5.22)

Here is what modern academics say about the ancient Macedonians.
Nicholas Hammond, British scholar and expert on Macedon: "We must remember too that Philip and Alexander were Greeks." ( 'Alexander the Great', p.257)
Yale University: "We know the ancient Macedonians were fundamentally Greeks. That is to say they were Greek speakers and ethnically they were Greeks." (Yale University, "Introduction to Ancient Greek History, Philip, Demosthenes and the Fall of the Polis", 2007)

So much can be written about it, unfortunately today the subject is politically charged, and much misinformation has been spread to promote political agendas.

If I look at a map of southern balkans of greece , aegean side, starting with Thessaly...then Macedonians are north of them, further north are Paeonians, further north are Dardanians, further north are thracians

If I look at the the adriatic side ......Epirotes there are 14 tribes of them, then north of them are corinthian colonies, then the first of the illyrian tribes, then dalmatians etc

so are you saying ....while they are not barbarians and some are Greeks.....then which of who I noted are Greek ?

 

[Demetrios]

As far as I know, there are actually 7 Neolithic J2a samples from Europe

1) J2a-Z6055 sample from Neolithic Hungary
2) J2a-Z6048 sample I5068, from Neolithic Austria
3) J2a-Z6048 sample I5207, from Neolithic Austria
4) J2a-Y13128 from Neolithic Hungary, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6057 from Neolithic Croatia, Lengyel Culture
6) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
7) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2

You seem to be correct. I quoted these figures i mentioned from the Eupedia respective webpage. Thanks for sharing the ones from above.

 

[Demetrios]

If I look at a map of southern balkans of greece , aegean side, starting with Thessaly...then Macedonians are north of them, further north are Paeonians, further north are Dardanians, further north are thracians

If I look at the the adriatic side ......Epirotes there are 14 tribes of them, then north of them are corinthian colonies, then the first of the illyrian tribes, then dalmatians etc

so are you saying ....while they are not barbarians and some are Greeks.....then which of who I noted are Greek ?

The northern-most Greeks proper, absent the colonies, are the Epirots and the Macedonians. Northwest the border was at the Ceraunian mountains (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ancient_Epirus_and_environs_(English).svg.png), while in Macedon it was in Pelagonia (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/PaeoniaPaioniaMap.png). Furthermore, take note that Macedonians were originally from the Pindus mountain range and later migrated eastwards.

 

[torzio]

The northern-most Greeks proper, absent the colonies, are the Epirots and the Macedonians. Northwest the border was at the Ceraunian mountains (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ancient_Epirus_and_environs_(English).svg.png), while in Macedon it was in Pelagonia (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/PaeoniaPaioniaMap.png). Furthermore, take note that Macedonians were originally from the Pindus mountain range and later migrated eastwards.

does maps are made my recent people of no note

here is strabo map ....................do you have an ancient one

 

[Demetrios]

does maps are made my recent people of no note

here is strabo map ....................do you have an ancient one

But Strabo doesn't say that these are not Greek regions. Even the point 3.2 on the map extends over all of Thessaly, and 3.1 extends over all of Aetolia and Acarnania. Plus in Book 7 of Strabo we read the following in terms of Macedon.
"There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis."
And he follows the same example for Epirus, where he divides it as a region that is bordered by the rivers Aoos and Achelous, hence why he also includes Aetolia-Acarnania of central Greece.
Anyway, the maps i aforementioned aren't hollow in meaning. They are based on actual historical and linguistic evidence. People from these regions had their own respective Greek dialects, despite having different political systems and being less developed than the southern Greeks.

 

[blevins13]

It is known throughout the academic world that Macedonians were Greeks, and even decades earlier when we had less evidence, Macedonians were classified as cousins of Greeks within a broader Hellenic group. Today we know that Macedonians spoke a northwest Doric dialect, similar to the one of Aetolians and Acarnanians in Central Greece.

Again off topic....let’s not ruin this thread as well....we ask from the Greek government to show us the DNA of the Macedonian bones...bones do not lie.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Demetrios]

Again off topic....let’s not ruin this thread as well....we ask from the Greek government to show us the DNA of the Macedonian bones...bones do not lie.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

I didn't begin anything. By the way, many bones of ancient Greeks are already outside of the country, it's not the Greek government that shows no interest but many institutions out there as well. Hopefully this will change soon.

 

[Angela]

True, so far it seems like the Western Balkans may have been more western shifted up until the Iron Age. This is based on the fact that HRV_MBA and HRV_IA both are very similar to modern day Northern Italians in terms of auDNA. However, it is very likely that over time the Illyric speaking tribes, especially those further to the south, became more southern shifted and Mycenaean like. It should be noted though that when it comes to Y-DNA, Albanians are predominantly descended from these Illyrians/Western Balkan populations.

Albanians are a Southern European ethnicity, whoever denies that it just wrong. When it comes to auDNA, Albanians overlap with mainland Greeks for the most part. Though some do cluster near Tuscans.

As far as I know there are Albanian academic samples, I'm pretty sure the ones used in the G25 datasheet are from academic studies.

Run from G25 comparing Greeks and Albanians (the average and mine):

Albanian average
Distance: 1.7634% / 0.01763448
60.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
29.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.0 East Asian

Me
Distance: 2.4746% / 0.02474594
62.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
28.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.6 GEO_CHG
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 East Asian

Greek Thessaly average:
Distance: 1.2821% / 0.01282121
58.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.2 Levant_Natufian
0.2 East_Asian

Greek Peloponnese average
Distance: 1.3937% / 0.01393737
62.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 GEO_CHG
1.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.4 East_Asian


Greek Central Macedonia average
Distance: 1.9753% / 0.01975263
57.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
31.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
2.2 Levant_Natufian
0.2 East_Asian

Mycenaean average
Distance: 1.0505% / 0.01050512
73.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.6 GEO_CHG
1.0 Levant_Natufian
0.6 Sub_Saharan

So, as I said, Albanians and mainland Greeks are very similar indeed.

As for the rest, I agree with everything except the bolded sentence. Let's wait and see if that's the case for all the "Albanian ydna".

 

[Kelmendasi]

So, as I said, Albanians and mainland Greeks are very similar indeed.

As for the rest, I agree with everything except the bolded sentence. Let's wait and see if that's the case for all the "Albanian ydna".

Yes we are very similar, though Greeks seem to get increased West Asian (Levant and Iranian Neolithic in this case). Most of this West Asian input seems to be ancient as it is also present in the Mycenaeans, probably arrived some time during the Bronze Age.

Judging by what we have already and where these Albanian clades (e.g R-Z2705 and J-PH1751) are most diverse, it is pretty clear that they are of Western Balkan origin. Obviously not every clade will be of Western Balkan origin (or even Balkan for that matter), but the majority does seem to be. Hopefully there will be a study in the near future that will include samples from the region which date back to Antiquity.

 

[torzio]

But Strabo doesn't say that these are not Greek regions. Even the point 3.2 on the map extends over all of Thessaly, and 3.1 extends over all of Aetolia and Acarnania. Plus in Book 7 of Strabo we read the following in terms of Macedon.
"There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis."
And he follows the same example for Epirus, where he divides it as a region that is bordered by the rivers Aoos and Achelous, hence why he also includes Aetolia-Acarnania of central Greece.
Anyway, the maps i aforementioned aren't hollow in meaning. They are based on actual historical and linguistic evidence. People from these regions had their own respective Greek dialects, despite having different political systems and being less developed than the southern Greeks.

He calls the moutain range the Paeonian mountains .................he does state 3.2 as macedonians

Strabo refers to Macedonia as what we state as greek-macedonia.....north of this is Paeonia ( modern term ..republic of macedonia )

dardania on map would be modern Kosovo

 

[Demetrios]

He calls the moutain range the Paeonian mountains .................he does state 3.2 as macedonians

Strabo refers to Macedonia as what we state as greek-macedonia.....north of this is Paeonia ( modern term ..republic of macedonia )

dardania on map would be modern Kosovo

The northern borders of 3.2 are designated as the Paeonian mountains, yes, and also all of Paeonia is included in 3.2, plus all of Thessaly and Phocis. This is not an ethnographic or linguistic map, but a geographical map, he states it himself. Yes, Strabo refers to Macedonia as Macedonia proper when he relates it to Greece. Furthermore, Paeonia (who were not Greeks) indeed relates to the Republic of North Macedonia (name has changed for one and a half year now). Last, Dardania proper would indeed be Kosovo, but the map you shared has Dardania in northern Albania basically. Anyway, let's end this here since we have diverged enough.

 

[Piro Ilir]

It is known throughout the academic world that Macedonians were Greeks, and even decades earlier when we had less evidence, Macedonians were classified as cousins of Greeks within a broader Hellenic group. Today we know that Macedonians spoke a northwest Doric dialect, similar to the one of Aetolians and Acarnanians in Central Greece.

How you know it? Not enough evidence.

 

[Piro Ilir]

We "have" yDna from Mycenaean tombs. We're discussing the paper which published some, yes?
I don't decide which yDna is the "true, original, proto Mycenaean, ydna". I let the ancient dna tell me, and a final conclusion waits upon a larger selection of samples.
If they came through the Caucasus and entered by a path which took them around the Black Sea, about which the authors of the paper are agnostic, J2a might very well turn out to be the proto-ydna. It perhaps more likely came by way of the northern Balkans and so carried an upstream R1b or R1a clade. Those clades are very minor ones in Greece today.
I don't get this mania about which was the "first" one, as other than a matter of intellectual interest. By the time their civilization was thriving, J2a was prominent among them, and not just among serfs if that's what you're implying.
As for the "Illyrians", the only data we have so far, and we have a few samples, shows that autosomally they're more related to other ethnicities than to Albanians.
I also don't get this point some some Albanian members are making that Greeks are so much more "southern" than they are. They're not, not if you're talking about mainland Greeks. It sometimes seems as if Albanians think they're not a Southern European ethnicity.
Part of the reason these discussions often degenerate into chaos is because Albanians are not included in papers or gedmatch because there's no academic sample of them. However, I'm sure lots of Albanians have tested and gone on gedmatch. We have results on spreadsheets for the various Greek populations. Publish your results in a side by side comparison with, say, Dodecad v3, and we'll see how you compare. It's simple enough.
Nationalist views propagated by authoritarian rulers from before the age of ancient ydna are bound to be wrong. "Pelasgian" is an outmoded, unscientific term. Who knows what the ancient authors meant by it? If you or "Albanian Nationalists" define Pelasgians as the Neolithic farming populations of Europe, including the Balkans, their most predominant yDna would have been G2a and I2a. Whether Albanians TODAY carry either specific clade is irrelevant to the fact that I'm sure they, like everyone else in the Balkans, is descended from those G2a and I2a carrying men.

1- I asked you for an opinion on proto Myceneans ydna. I didn't asked for any definitive conclusion from you.
2- How in hell you know what was Illyrian dna ? As far as I know both two bronze age samples from Dalmatian cost and northern Serbia are from an area probably settled by proto Illyrians. Proto Illyrians and iron age Illyrians are not the same thing. Comparing modern Albans with proto Illyrians of northern Ballkans would be nonsense.

 

[Demetrios]

How you know it? Not enough evidence.

This is not a thread for such discussion, but to answer your question shortly, we have inscriptions such as the Pella curse tablet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet), which represents a North-West Doric dialect. Plus we have mentions of ancient authors such the Roman historian Livy, who wrote of the Macedonians, "Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language" or in Latin "Aetolos, Acarnanas, Macedonas, eiusdem linguae homines", Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 31, chapter 29. Aetolians and Acarnanians spoke a North-West Doric dialect.

 

[Piro Ilir]

As far as I know, there are actually 7 Neolithic J2a samples from Europe

1) J2a-Z6055 sample from Neolithic Hungary
2) J2a-Z6048 sample I5068, from Neolithic Austria
3) J2a-Z6048 sample I5207, from Neolithic Austria
4) J2a-Y13128 from Neolithic Hungary, Sopot Culture
5) J2a-Z6057 from Neolithic Croatia, Lengyel Culture
6) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
7) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2

It looks like that J2a1 was around the same as E1b during Neolithic. Am I right?

What do you think about the proto Mycenean ydna ? Which was the ydna of these first proto Mycenean chieftains according to you?

 

[Demetrios]

It looks like that J2a1 was around the same as E1b during Neolithic. Am I right?

What do you think about the proto Mycenean ydna ? Which was the ydna of these first proto Mycenean chieftains according to you?

The same Eupedia webpage i shared earlier has E1b1b at one sample of the total 69 from the Neolithic, https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/haplogroups_of_neolithic_farmers.shtml. Do you have any additional to mention like Kelmendi shared of J2a above?

As for Mycenaeans, i see that many use the term proto-Mycenaeans in reference to proto-Greeks. This is actually wrong, bearing in mind that the Mycenaean language is already fully recognizable Greek, so it must have been Greek for quite a while before. Not to mention Mycenaean Greek was also dialectal Greek, in affiliation with the Arcadocypriot dialect of Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadocypriot_Greek), so its divergence from proto-Greek must be pushed into the past, certainly around 2500 BCE as other evidence also point to. My main point is that proto-Greeks and proto-Mycenaeans are not the same thing.

 

[Piro Ilir]

The same Eupedia webpage i shared earlier has E1b1b at one sample of the total 69 from the Neolithic, https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/haplogroups_of_neolithic_farmers.shtml. Do you have any additional to mention like you did with J2a?
As for Mycenaeans, i see that many use the term proto-Mycenaeans in reference to proto-Greeks. This is actually wrong, bearing in mind that the Mycenaean language is already fully recognizable Greek, so it must have been Greek for quite a while before. Not to mention Mycenaean Greek was also dialectal Greek, in affiliation with the Arcadocypriot dialect of Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadocypriot_Greek), so its divergence from proto-Greek must be pushed into the past, certainly around 2500 BCE as other evidence also point to. My main point is that proto-Greeks and proto-Mycenaeans are not the same thing.

When I say "proto Mycenean", I mean the people whom came from the Eurasian steppes as warrior elite and founded the Mycenean civilization. I generally don't use the term "Greek" for ancient Hellenes for easier understanding. I prefer the Hellenic term.
In my opinion ancient Macedonians were ethnically Illyrians, though they became part of the Hellenic nation later on 500 bce. We need to accept, though I don't like this, that nationality and ethnicity are two distinct things.
I tend to believe Herodotus about Macedonians.
Anyway, what is the original ydna of proto Myceneans? J2a1 and G2a seems to be local, not from the Eurasian steppes. In my opinion proto Myceneans were IE chariot riders from the Catacomb culture

 

[Piro Ilir]

Seems that noone here has an opinion on who were these Proto Myceneans. Let alone who were proto Minoans

 

[Piro Ilir]

So far we can say only that, Myceneans and Minoans were related by their ydna but their auDNA was distinct at some point. The Myceneans were partly steppe people while Minoans were totally descended from Neolithic farmers. Right?