@tyuiopman
You write, "Yes! I'm familiar with Fournet's and Bomhard's theory regarding the Hurro-Urartians having separated from IE prior to Anatolian. It's absolutely fascinating and I believe makes a lot of sense. If Pre-Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the South Caucasus (Armenia/northern Iran) originally, and if Kura-Araxes was Hurro-Urartian speaking (which has been suggested by some researchers and which I ascribe to) it wouldn't be a stretch at all for PIE and Hurro-Urartian to have had a common ancestor--they originated in the same geographic region and probably around the same time. I think I said this in a post some months ago, but I think that within the next couple of decades, PIE will be reoriented to Armenia/Iran and may include Hurro-Urartian, Yamnaya will be called something like "Classic Indo-European."".
Yeah. I also ascribe to what you write above, and i am also a fan of Fournet's and Bomhard's works. Now, that is a whole different discussion, and i have my own share of varying hypotheses, but one pertains to the Dnieper-Donets/Samara cultures and their influence from the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture (6000-4000 BCE). The thing is we don't have enough Neolithic and Eneolithic samples from these significant regions. I personally still don't know of any that relates to the Shulaveri-Shomu culture (especially before 5000 BCE), which based on indirect data seems to be the cause for the considerable increase of the CHG autosomal component we see in the Ukrainian (Dnieper-Donets)/Samara Eneolithic samples. I reason that this migration happened at approximately 5200-5000 BCE, as a result of being displaced to the north by southern invadors, i suspect the Ubaids. These Shulaveri-Shomu people per my understanding, either brought with them a pre-PIE (pre-Proto-Indo-European) or a PNC (Proto-North Caucasian) language, and many of them eventually settled in Khvalynsk. Ancient DNA from this period and the Transcaucasian region is unfortunately pretty scarce, although what we do have does indirectly point to such a possible migratory scenario. Modern DNA does as well. There is much more to add into all these but they are not related to the topic of this thread.
You write, "Fascinating story about Apollo and the raven and Khaldi and the raven--which begs the question, was this a Hurro-Urartian story or a Greco-Armenian story?".
Well, the name could have followed this evolution, Apollo (Greek)<Apaliunas (Trojan)<Apeljōn (Hittite)<Aplu (Hurrian)<Aplu Enlil (Akkadian - Son of Enlil, namely Nergal). As a sidenote, notice that the Etruscan name for Greek God Apollo, was also "Apulu, Aplu". In terms of attributes, they were all solar Gods and related to plague. But i don't think the raven story has anything to do with the origin of the name and even the God's respective attributes. For one, ravens aren't mentioned in any Nergal story that i am aware of. I believe it to be an IE story, and therefore Graeco-Armenian. Ravens were also central in other IE mythologies, like for example Germanic (which includes Norse). Look at "Huginn and Muninn" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn) for example. Odin's pair of ravens. Ravens are also present in Celtic mythology. The aforementioned story could also be Hurro-Urartian in origin, but not much has survived on Hurrian "Aplu" in order to come to any conclusion.
You write, "I wonder if Ana/Ama, etc are prehistoric words that go back (tens) of thousands of years? According to the prevalent theory, Anahid means something like "without blemish" in Iranian. Again, "an" being a negating prefix like "un". The fact that "ano" meant "high" in Ancient Greek is interesting because the Sumerian god of the sky was "Anu." There is a theory that links Anahid to this word.".
Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian, because they seem to be absent from Africa. If they were indeed "lallnamen" words, you would expect to find them in Africa as well, but there aren't any based on my knowledge.
We also have this prefix, indicating "something opposite". It has a number of Greek versions, depending on grammatical rules, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1-#Greek. It comes from PIE *n̥-, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstructionroto-Indo-European/n%CC%A5-#Proto-Indo-European. Now, i don't think this has anything to do with the aforementioned etymologies.
Yeah, i am aware of Sumerian Anu. I believe all these aforementioned etymologies from my previous post are interrelated with Anu as well.
Along this Eurasian approach, maybe the Ainu/Aynu of Japan are also related to this root. In the Ainu/Aynu language, their name translates as "person or mankind". Also the word for father is "Aca" (certainly related to Ata, etc.), while for mother "Nanna" (certainly related to Anna) and "Hapo".
You write, "Supposedly Armenian ian/yan originally came from Iranian or PIE. Originally it was -ean, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, -ian means the same thing in English as it does in Armenian. I do think that some Armenian noble names may come from Urartian. Armenian noble names like Yervanduni, Rshtuni, etc. The possessive marker in Armenian is -i (an "ee" sound in English), which may come from Hurro-Urartian (compare with Urartian -hi/-khi/-ni, which are all variations of "belonging to"--the same as Armenian "ian/yan"). I do think that it's possible that Anahid (Ani) is related to "Hanna" via Urartian "Aiaini"/Inuani," which are probably connected to Inanna too. I think Anahid is also connected to Anath.".
I was unaware of "Aiaini/Inuani" . Yeah, they seem related as well.
You write, "As for the Mushki, there isn't much about them, but we do know that one of their kings was named Mita, which is an Anatolian IE name and generally regarded as being connected to Greek/Phrygian Midas. One theory about the name Mushki is that the root is "mush" or "mush" and the k is the Classical Armenian plural marker "k'" (for example, Armenians still call Persians "Barsik," which literally means "Parsis" in English). Or maybe it's a dialectical version of Urartian "khi" (although the Urartians called them Mushkini)? "Tribe of Mush" (there is a city near Lake Van called Mush). What very little we know about them points toward them being Indo-European. Their allies were the Urumu (as written in Akkadian cuneiform). This could have been Aramu/Arama (U and A were interchangeable in cuneiform). So perhaps Diakonoff was right after all, but he got the direction wrong--they didn't come from the west but came from the east. Long story short, the circumstantial evidence points to them having been an Indo-European people.".
Fair points. There was also the Mush dialect in western Armenia (proper), in the city you mention. Is there any peculiarity in their dialect? Probably it isn't spoken any more after the genocide, but do we know of any peculiarity in relation to it? It is also a western Armenian dialect, like the Hamshen dialect you had mentioned in the past.
You write, "I think that Persian "angaros" makes more sense than Mycenaean "a-ke-ro," especially if "agaros" could be rendered "angalos," however, I think that the idea of Armenian "Angel/Angegh," meaning "invisible"/"supernatural" seems as apt, if not more, than "messenger" (but I've heard this "messenger" theory before). Interesting though how "angaros" does look like a Greek word.".
Greek "ἄγγελος" (ángelos) also translates as "messenger", hence why i also see it as a cognate of the Persian word. It was later introduced into Judeo-Christian theology in replacement of "מַלְאָךְ" (mal’akh) meaning "messenger - both divine and human", therefore taking a religious role, hence why you can attach a supernatural background to it, but originally it wasn't like that.
It's like the other Greek word "ἀγγελιαφόρος" (angeliaphóros) which means "the one who bears the message", namely another word for "messenger", or "ἀγγελία" (angelíā) which means "message". I don't think the root came from Persian, but rather that it was probably common linguistic heritage from earlier. I say this because we find the word "ἀγγελίη" (angelíē) in the Homeric Epics, centuries before the Greeks came into contact with the Persians. If there is a loanword from Persian, then this is certainly the Greek word "ἀγγαρεία" (angareía), which means "forced labor or task", and we know that delivering messages was a "task".
You write, "I don't think that Trialeti-Vanadzor was Greco-Armenian, it was too late. But I do think that they were Proto-Armenian, and still culturally close enough/in contact with their Proto-Greek (Mycenaean) cousins.".
I want to stress that i don't view Mycenaeans as proro-Greeks, bearing in mind that Mycenaean Greek which is documented to have been spoken from at least 1450 BCE is already fully recognizable Greek, so it must have been Greek for quite a while before. Not to mention that Mycenaean Greek was also dialectal Greek, so its divergence from Proto-Greek must be pushed into the past. Mycenaean Greek was in fact similar to Arcadocypriot Greek (which is considered a direct descendant of the first). I believe Mycenaean divergence from proto-Greek must be dated to the appearance of Minyan ware in the Helladic peninsula, namely 2200-1900 BCE. Therefore proto-Greek would be placed before that horizon.
If we view Trialeti-Vanadzor as IE, as some scholars have suggested, then it could very well be proto-Armenian. But we run again into the question, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, with proto-Greek speakers entering Greece through the Balkans and proto-Armenians through the Caucasus? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in Transcaucasia? Or, did Graeco-Armenian diverged in the Balkans?
If we are to consider Trialeti-Vanadzor proto-Armenian, then the first scenario seems more likely, namely the Pontic-Caspian steppe divergence. That is because Anatolia is absent of any steppe ancestry before the Iron Age, negating the possibility that one or the other moved through Anatolia. But even in that scenario, i believe proto-Greek began its migration towards the Balkans before proto-Armenian began its own towards Transcaucasia. I mean that proto-Greek first left the Pontic-Caspian steppe sometime around 2500 BCE, and then proto-Armenian began its descent around the time of Trialeti-Vanadzor.
If on the other hand proto-Armenian reached Armenia during the Iron Age, it is almost certain that it must have diverged in the Balkans.
I personally exclude the southern Anatolian route for proto-Greek, exactly because of this absence in steppe ancestry throughout Anatolia, at least before the Iron Age.
I wonder if Apishlu/Apislu, the name of the Kaskas who were allied with the Mushki and Urumu, is somehow related to Apollo. The Apishlu may have been Hattian and not Indo-European, but officially, just like the Mushki and Urumu, they are unclassified.
I didn't make the connection to Odin's ravens--very interesting!
"Not just words for mother such as Anna/Ana/Ama are so widespread throughout many language families, but also words for father such as Atta/Ata/Aita/Tata. This makes me believe as well that they are remnants of a proto-proto-language, namely Eurasian"--my conclusion as well.
I believe that the Mushki are thought to have/recorded as having settled in the vicinity of Mush. There was (or still is) a Mush dialect of Western Armenian. I guess it's still spoken in parts of northern Armenia and Georgia by the descendants of people from Mush who fled to the Russian Empire during the Genocide. I don't really know enough to get into the mechanics of what makes it unique or how it compares with Hamshen Armenian, however. I'm assuming that they both have a fair amount of Turkish (and Iranian) loans but Hamshen probably has more Turkish influence than Mush dialect, if I had to venture to guess. But I'd imagine that the modern Mush dialect has been influenced by Yerevan Armenian and Russian too. Here's some comparisons between various Armenian dialects, including Mush dialect and Hamshetsi: https://www.academia.edu/38064007/T...s_editor_Hans_Henrich_Hock_vol._6_2018_46-105
Mush dialect is used in a lot of folk songs, but the Polis (Constantinople/Istanbul) dialect is considered the standard Western Armenian dialect.
I'm starting to think that Greek and Armenian separated in the Steppes, honestly, prior to the Balkans or South Caucasus. If Armenian is as close to Indo-Iranian as it is Greek, it would suggest that they all split off prior to migrating south or east since nobody thinks that Indo-Iranians were in the Balkans or South Caucasus prior to being in Central Asia-->South Asia. There is some evidence to suggest that there was a Steppe Indo-European presence in Armenia by 2200 BCE, and potentially a century or two earlier (i.e. Steppe-derived horse skeletons, possibly Steppe genes). If the Armani were indeed Armenian-speakers, I think it's possible that they established trading colonies in southeastern Turkey in the middle of 3rd millennium BCE, perhaps controlling the metal trade between Mesopotamia and the Steppes. Armenians are still known as metalworkers and merchants, so this wouldn't be out of character. Besides the name Armani and Arra-ti and some Sumerian words in Armenian and some Armenian-looking words in Sumerian, I have no concrete evidence of this, however. But there were Assyrian colonies into the Hittite heartland, so I'm not sure why there couldn't have been Steppe intrusions into Hittite or Assyrian territory, especially because it seems they were all trading with each other.
Interestingly, the ~2500 BCE date pops up quite a bit. The legendary patriarch Hayk supposedly established the Armenian nation in 2492 BCE. Also, according to one of the tables I believe that you linked me over the summer, there was an R1b1a1 individual found in Kalavan near Lake Sevan and dated to between 2619-2465 BCE (this is exactly where Martirosyan places the proto-Armenians and this is thought to be the Proto-Armenian Y-haplogroup, if I understand correctly). Also, Armani was mentioned in the Ebla Tablets (obviously further south in SE Turkey or northern Syria) around the same time. So perhaps some ventured further south into Mesopotamia at this time?
So I think the Caucasus route for Armenians and the Balkan route for Greeks are both certainly possible. It seems like the scholarship is veering toward them separating in the Steppes anyhow.
Edit: Forgot to mention Shulaveri-Shomu--I think that they seem good for Pre-Proto IE. Right location. Right time period. Likely genetic influence. Seems to have developed partially into Kura-Araxes (which could support Fournet's/Bomhard's theory about Hurro-Urartian--perhaps they were the ones that stayed behind?) If I recall correctly, Kartvelians claim to come from NE Turkey, like Pontus area (Tzani/Lazica).
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