Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Now genetics is pseudo-science, analysis of ancient dna is pseudo-science.

The only thing that isn't pseudo-science is nationalist myth building.
 
Now genetics is pseudo-science, analysis of ancient dna is pseudo-science.

The only thing that isn't pseudo-science is nationalist myth building.

In case you are referring to my post that can’t find anymore, pseudoscience is not reveling genetic data even when have passed 2 years, there was another study in Greece mentioned by Yetos for some other samples that was never published 1 or 2 years ago, and then we have still pending: IMG_4161.jpg

Just show us the bones, they don’t lie.....




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blevins: I am not sure what you are upset about. However, in terms of these studies, it could be the quality of the samples or DNA extracted from said samples are not of the standards that any statistical analysis and results from that analysis provides enough stable results for the paper to make it through the peer review process that all major academic journals in the Western World (Europe, USA, Australia, even though it is in the Pacific) etc, require before a paper is accepted by the Editor or Editorial board for publication.
 
In case you are referring to my post that can’t find anymore, pseudoscience is not reveling genetic data even when have passed 2 years, there was another study in Greece mentioned by Yetos for some other samples that was never published 1 or 2 years ago, and then we have still pending: View attachment 11828

Just show us the bones, they don’t lie.....




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Was someone going to recover genetic material of Alexander's family? Sounds interesting, but stupid. My two cents on this, extracting ancient genetic material is fine. But ascribing it to a certain individual? You can never positively identify a person. I would not put any names on it. Now that is pseudo science.

As for Ancient Greek genetic material. You can find it anywhere. From Spain to India.
 
Was someone going to recover genetic material of Alexander's family? Sounds interesting, but stupid. My two cents on this, extracting ancient genetic material is fine. But ascribing it to a certain individual? You can never positively identify a person. I would not put any names on it. Now that is pseudo science.

As for Ancient Greek genetic material. You can find it anywhere. From Spain to India.

Lack of openness and transparency is a mark of pseudoscience.DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece but nothing from Vergina Tomb?
How is that possible?!!!!



IMG_4162.jpg


. IMG_4163.jpg


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[FONT=&quot]I got a response from him. The translation of the original Greek message is the following.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Hello Demetrios,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your interest.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These samples will be analyzed in-depth (autosomal markers) in the near future as part of a research program. The results that i show in the presentation are preliminary and not final.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nikolaos Psonis"

The aforementioned preliminary presentation took place in the 16th of February, 2018 therefore i don't think it will be long before we have a publication, since 2 years have already passed. In any case, i asked him when can we approximately expect the paper. I will update you.
[/FONT]




Well I am still precaution and call me 'prohabited' about R1b1b,
Is there any offcial publication? or until now just a presentation?
 
Lack of openness and transparency is a mark of pseudoscience.DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece but nothing from Vergina Tomb?
How is that possible?!!!!



View attachment 11830


. View attachment 11829


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you are telling us nothing?
What is your problem?

1)why the Vergina tomb bones may never be searched? or delay on the publication results?

2) or Greek laboratories (always to you) publish fake and faulse results?

Anyway this the Lab that Demetrios link the video for the possible FIRST R1b1b found in Greece.

e-rihs-logo.png


logo-en.png



Link
https://ancient-dna.gr/index.php/en/

its 1 of the 8 IMBB labs in Greece.
It is very very young, Founded at 2016.

So if you say this lab makes pseudoscience
Your opinion does not count
THE ONES WHO DECIDE THAT ARE THE ONES WHO CRITISISE And Check for correctness THE METHODS, the infrastucture, the extack of results etc,Pseudoscience has nothing to do on timing a scientists publish his search.
neither on the search he decides to do.
but on the method, the tools, etc, the sample he used and how he changed the results.


In case you did not understand
Look the Link
http://www.e-rihs.eu/partners/

E-RIHS national hubs

National hubs operate at national level in diverse legal frameworks and represent national associations of partner facilities.





2bcea64a-2e3c-4834-a8fb-3023377bf1d7-1.png



 
you are telling us nothing?
What is your problem?

1)why the Vergina tomb bones may never be searched? or delay on the publication results?

2) or Greek laboratories (always to you) publish fake and faulse results?

Anyway this the Lab that Demetrios link the video for the possible FIRST R1b1b found in Greece.

e-rihs-logo.png


logo-en.png



Link
https://ancient-dna.gr/index.php/en/

its 1 of the 8 IMBB labs in Greece.
It is very very young, Founded at 2016.

So if you say this lab makes pseudoscience?
Your opinion does not count?
THE ONES WHO DECIDE THAT ARE THE ONES WHO CRITISISE And Check for correctness THE METHODS, the infrastucture, the extack of results etc,Pseudoscience has nothing to do on timing a scientists publish his search.
neither on the search he decides to do.
but on the method, the tools, etc, the sample he used and how he changed the results.


In case you did not understand
Look the Link
http://www.e-rihs.eu/partners/

[h=1]E-RIHS national hubs[/h]National hubs operate at national level in diverse legal frameworks and represent national associations of partner facilities.





2bcea64a-2e3c-4834-a8fb-3023377bf1d7-1.png





DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece is something not nothing, but this was not what I was looking for......


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This is going to end now or you both will get infractions.

When and if the paper is released the analysis can be looked at by other labs and the amateur community. No doubt the samples will be made available since this is an academic endeavor. Until that happens I don't see how anyone can say they have published pseudo science.

So, enough.

Why do I think that even if all of that happens, there will be those who won't accept the results.
 
DNA samples from 262 ancient horse skeletons found across mainland Greece is something not nothing, but this was not what I was looking for......


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

would you pay the labs?
or would you publish the results.

Officially is a presentation to pre-gratuated or after, students.
an intro to molecular biology techology.

So even I, a Greek, amnot conviced for R1b1b,
but wait for publication.

until then the term you use may wrong or correct,
but until then pseudoscience is only in your mind,

and if you want results for thousands of skeletons or horse bones
better give a considerable donation to start one,
than accuse other people work.
 
would you pay the labs?
or would you publish the results.

Officially is a presentation to pre-gratuated or after, students.
an intro to molecular biology techology.

So even I, a Greek, amnot conviced for R1b1b,
but wait for publication.

until then the term you use may wrong or correct,
but until then pseudoscience is only in your mind,

and if you want results for thousands of skeletons or horse bones
better give a considerable donation to start one,
than accuse other people work.

Sure I will pay for the lab work, how would you think Albanian Dna project got to 1000 samples. But Greek government is not that poor I guess. But he says all... after two years still sleeping over. My last comment for this topic.
IMG_4164.jpg



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Sure I will pay for the lab work, how would you think Albanian Dna project got to 1000 samples. But Greek government is not that poor I guess. But he says all... after two years still sleeping over. My last comment for this topic.
View attachment 11832



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sometimes 6 years may pass so the owner publish his search.
and know it well.

and even if never published,
surely does not allow nobody to accuse as pseudoscience a lab worker before officially publish work results and method.

I never published my pantent engine,
Although I made 3 demonstrations,
Am I a pseudoscientist?

we both know that your statement was mistaken or wrong,
By not admiting it guess who lose

BELLOW IS THE VIDEO OF A PRESENTATION possibly to pre- or after-gratuated students
which part of it is Pseudoscience?

 
Perhaps the papers, and the amateur community, have done everyone a disservice in "only" looking at averages. It's important to know the variation as well, both for understanding source populations and levels of admixture, and for comparison to other ancient and modern samples.

Look at the variation in the Mycenaean samples.

Distance to:I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
14.81901481Sephardic_Jews
15.58023323Italy_Calabria
15.79488101Italy_Campania
15.86489521Ashkenazy_Jews
15.92790005Ashkenazi
17.40529244Italy_Sicily
17.57771316Greek_Crete
17.77067247Morocco_Jews
17.96504160Italy_Abruzzo
18.82986989Greek
19.61582749Italy_Apulia
19.66680452Cypriots
20.61383560Italy_Marche
20.70738516Greek_Cappadocia
21.83485251Italy_Lazio
22.10320737France_Corsica
23.16245237Italy_Romagna
24.24396420Crimean_Tatar_Coast
24.91841287Nusayri_Turkey
24.97059330Italy_Tuscany
26.46765367Italy_Emilia
26.82342260Turk_West_BlackSea
27.33735778Italy_Liguria
27.35662077Turk_Central_West
27.73607759Albanian_Kosovo


arget: I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
Distance: 2.4755% / 2.47548835
41.0Sardinian
31.8Cypriots
24.4Abhkasians
2.2Ashkenazi
0.6Japanese

Distance to:I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
12.27120108France_Corsica
14.32152359Italy_Marche
14.68387571Italy_Campania
15.25370406Italy_Abruzzo
15.67295122Italy_Romagna
15.85919560Italy_Sicily
15.87056092Italy_Lazio
16.19717395Italy_Calabria
16.51763573Italy_Tuscany
17.23109399Ashkenazi
17.67637947Italy_Emilia
17.81472986Greek
17.82236516Ashkenazy_Jews
17.92499729Italy_Apulia
18.11262273Italy_Liguria
18.22126779Sephardic_Jews
18.43265038Morocco_Jews
19.90943408Italy_Lombardy
20.53450754Greek_Crete
21.60349458Italy_Piedmont
21.89247381Italy_Veneto
22.18968679Albanian_Kosovo
22.92617064Albanian_North
23.81265026Swiss_Italian
24.51374259Italy_FriuliVG
Target: I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
Distance: 3.6847% / 3.68474748 | ADC: 0.25x
56.2Ashkenazy_Jews
28.4Sardinian
13.8France_Corsica
1.2YRI30
0.2Abhkasians
0.2Yoruba

I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,2.87,0,2.57,0,37.48,8.67,0,0.36,10.29,0,37.52,0.24
Distance to:I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
13.55233139Italy_Campania
14.13797717Italy_Calabria
14.48416031Sephardic_Jews
14.61318925Ashkenazi
14.65877553Morocco_Jews
14.91203692Italy_Sicily
15.08998197France_Corsica
15.18027377Italy_Abruzzo
15.51886394Italy_Marche
15.72085239Ashkenazy_Jews
16.97325909Italy_Lazio
17.49433337Italy_Romagna
17.49709084Italy_Apulia
17.70788807Greek
18.28898849Greek_Crete
18.88948094Italy_Tuscany
20.35369266Italy_Emilia
20.60290849Italy_Liguria
22.88537126Italy_Lombardy
23.64104693Albanian_Kosovo
24.33396639Italy_Piedmont
24.58295751Albanian_North
24.75683264Italy_Veneto
24.83940619Cypriots
25.03009988Crimean_Tatar_Coast

Target: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
Distance: 3.2754% / 3.27542614 | ADC: 0.25x
57.4Ashkenazi
27.0Sardinian
14.2Sephardic_Jews
1.4Yemen_Jews


Target: I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.1375% / 2.13751088
37.0Ashkenazi
34.4Sardinian
18.6Samaritians
5.4Bulgarians
3.6Greek
1.0Dai


Distance to:I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
11.44677448Italy_Campania
12.33129841Italy_Calabria
13.13825497Italy_Abruzzo
13.15328096Ashkenazi
13.22250222Italy_Sicily
13.57535267Sephardic_Jews
13.66806131Ashkenazy_Jews
14.38034346Italy_Marche
15.07364588Greek
15.15563578France_Corsica
15.34010430Morocco_Jews
15.46971390Italy_Apulia
15.81161769Italy_Lazio
15.98990306Greek_Crete
16.70016766Italy_Romagna
18.37812967Italy_Tuscany
19.91440511Italy_Emilia
20.56554327Italy_Liguria
22.03402823Crimean_Tatar_Coast
22.26987202Albanian_Kosovo
22.56625800Cypriots
22.73267317Italy_Lombardy
23.21611725Albanian_North
23.53980884Greek_Cappadocia
24.18255797Italy_Piedmont

Target: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.9465% / 0.94648721
31.8Sardinian
22.6Cypriots
20.2Ashkenazi
15.4Greek
7.0Abhkasians
2.8Bulgarians
0.2Sandawe_He


Target: I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.5374% / 2.53738883 | ADC: 0.25x
36.8Ashkenazy_Jews
25.4Sardinian
18.4Cypriots
12.6Greek
6.8Italy_Campania

There's quite a bit of variation, but in the list of "admixtures" either Ashkenazi/Sephardi, or Cypriots or both show up, populations with some of degree of Levantine admixture. One sample even has "Samaritans" as part of the mix.

The variation could be explained by a not completely stable culture wide admixture because not enough time had passed for complete admixture.

What, however, of this more Levantine or Levantine tinged strand?

Now, there's no historical evidence whatsoever for migrations from the Levant proper. The authors found only a tiny bit, if I remember correctly, in the average of the Mycenaeans.

So, is it a "false positive" of sorts, i.e. just showing more "southern" early farmer ancestry that was not yet completely admixed?

Or, did some of the people who migrated to Greece bringing Iran Neo like ancestry come from areas with more Levant like Neo as well, i.e. ancestry not from northwest Anatolia, but from southeast Anatolia near Syria?

When it comes to populations like the people of Crete, or even Cyprus, are we then looking only at Bronze Age admixture from non-Levantines rather than more recent admixture from true Levantine populations?

What application would that have to southern Italian populations?

One confounding factor might be sample quality. Anyone know if some of these samples are sub-par?
 
But Eshkenazi mark is European, what has to do with Levant? Isn't it?

and even today majority of Greeks have a small %
 
The estimates for Ashkenazi Jews in terms of "ancestry" usually run from 30-40% "Levantine".

However, it's true they plot somewhere need Cypriots.

We need samples from the last centuries BC and the first centuries of Anno Domini to figure it out.
 
I do not want to start a war, but come on..

at least in my heritage is clear central European.

https://vimeo.com/218348730

at least 40-50% of Greeks show a 0.01 to 25% Askenazi mark.
and most ask or wonder,
yet it is very common,

but if I follow by 'the letter of the rule' I may 1/8 to 1/4 of Greeks is from Askenazi ancestry!!!!!

I think, that the term of the mark as Askenazi gives wrong impression, to many people.

watch the video to see,
 
.........
You write, "It's important to know the variation as well, both for understanding source populations and levels of admixture, and for comparison to other ancient and modern samples.".
Are you referring to the ultimate vs proximate sources? The supplementary info had an interesting input.
"We use the simulated individuals by studying statistics of the form f4(Mycenaean, Simulated; A, B), where (A, B) is a pair from the All++ set, excluding Mycenaeans, and the source populations (Table S2.27). By observing the maximum Z-score (in absolute value) of these statistics we can see whether the pair (Mycenaean, Simulated) is symmetrically related to the (A, B) pairs, and see which actual mixture proportions produce Simulated populations that best approximate the Mycenaeans. In Extended Data Fig. 6 we plot these Z-scores, together with the qpAdm estimates; the two estimates are within 2-21% of each other and are qualitatively similar in supporting the idea that the substratum population (Anatolia_N or Minoan_Lasithi) is the major component in the ancestry of Mycenaeans, on top of which was added ancestry from either a steppe-related ‘northern’ or Armenia-related ‘eastern’ population.
The simulation framework also allows us to compare different models directly. Suppose that there are two models (Simulated1, Simulated2) and we wish to examine whether either of them is a better description of a population of interest (in this case, Mycenaeans). We test f4(Simulated1, Simulated2; Mycenaean, Chimp), which directly determines whether the observed Mycenaeans shares more alleles with one or the other of the two models. When we apply this intuition to the best models for the Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 6), we observe that none of them clearly outperforms the others as there are no statistics with |Z|>3 (Table S2.28). However, we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2 level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history.".

You write, "Now, there's no historical evidence whatsoever for migrations from the Levant proper. The authors found only a tiny bit, if I remember correctly, in the average of the Mycenaeans.".
The authors didn't find any Levantine ancestry either among the Mycenaeans or the Minoans. They did find some among Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians though (sidenote: of the three samples listed in the Extended Data Table 1, there is one male and he belonged to the J1 Y-DNA haplogroup). Specifically the paper states, "the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.". But for Minoans and Mycenaeans it states, "Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans". And indeed there isn't, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T3/?report=objectonly.

You write, "When it comes to populations like the people of Crete, or even Cyprus, are we then looking only at Bronze Age admixture from non-Levantines rather than more recent admixture from true Levantine populations?
What application would that have to southern Italian populations?".
There was an interesting study back in 2017, namely "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean" (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4.pdf). It stated:
"In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as 'Mediterranean genetic continuum'.". The same paper also identifies traces of Post-Neolithic Caucasus and Near-Eastern related ancestries. We already know of the Caucasus-related ancestry among the Minoans and Mycenaeans and the absence of Near-Eastern ancestry among them, but a Near-Eastern trace among the modern populations of the "Mediterranean genetic continuum" would suggest a more recent admixture event. At least, i thought initially, until i saw that in their admixture projection of ancient individuals that Near-Eastern component was also present in a similar/identical frequency among the Neolithic Anatolians, Eneolithic LBK, Eneolithic Hungary, etc.., therefore i don't know why they refer to the Near-Eastern respective ancestry as Post-Neolithic, when it appears to have been Neolithic or Eneolithic, and associated with the pre-IE farmers. In any case, they also stated, "These movements were associated to the diffusion of Early-Neolithic Farmers and to the introgression of Bronze Age Steppe herders (Yamnaya).", therefore not so recent in any case.

By the way, the rest of the modern Greeks and Albanians are slightly differentiated due to their relatively higher Slavic admixture that they inherited during the Middle Ages, although they are still close nonetheless. As the paper stated, "
Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

This "Mediterranean genetic continuum" also includes many of the western Jews, even though they aren't mentioned directly.

In the case of western Jews, that "Mediterranean genetic continuum" is also visible in all of the Ashkenazim's G25 individual sample maps that i have seen in this thread (we have briefly touched upon it in the past), https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18960-G25-Distance-Maps-To-Modern-Europeans. For example, look here:
https://i.imgur.com/pJUAPnx.png (Ashkenazi Jew)
https://i.imgur.com/4A24RoT.png (Ashkenazi Jew)
https://i.imgur.com/bXr7Ma0.png (Ashkenazi Jew)
https://i.imgur.com/07wfCMM.png (Ashkenazi Jew)
https://i.imgur.com/x62usfM.png (Ashkenazi Jew)
https://i.imgur.com/t6vcpl6.png (Romaniote Jew)
https://i.imgur.com/uDQD7Bo.png (Greek Cypriot)
Here is also a map with Imperial Romans, who were differentiated from Iron/Republic-era Romans, as the city absorbed more and more eastern-Mediterranean (or Mycenaean-like) and Near-Eastern populations,
https://i.imgur.com/Vhssjk4.png. This is also evident in the recent "Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean" (2019) paper, https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/366/6466/708/F2.large.jpg. Last, here is the respective Mycenaean map for comparison, https://i.imgur.com/wdxz9BI.png.

Now, as to how and why western Jews autosomally diverged from their original Levantine macro-cluster, there are a number of hypotheses. It is almost certain that some must have coalesced in Greek-inhabited areas, but to what extent i am not sure. Take special notice of the fact that in the past Judaism used to be very proselytist (actually the word proselytism originally referred to Judaism conversion). If i recall correctly, Judaism only ceased proselytizing under imposition by its relative sects an
d the Roman Empire. Along these lines have a look at the following map showing that in the 1-2nd centuries CE, the Jewish diaspora was mainly concentrated in Greek-inhabited areas, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Image-Diaspora_synagogues_in_Antiquity.png. A second map i found in Wikipedia lists these following paths, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Jewishdiaspora.png. Then there is also the hypothesis that western Jews (especially Ashkenazim Jews) tend to cluster in the aforementioned "Mediterranean genetic continuum" because they have a bit more northern European admixture compared to other Levantine populations, and thus this mix would place them close to southern Italians and Greek islanders. The origin of western Jews is a very big subject with plenty of hypotheses, sometimes contradicting.
 
[FONT=&quot]Specifically the paper states, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]". But for Minoans and Mycenaeans it states, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]

All the more odd that Samaritans show up as part of the admixture, and Jews, and even Cypriots, who the amateur community in particular maintain have quite a bit of "Levantine" ancestry.

Indeed, when speaking of "Near Eastern" ancestry, one should be including Anatolian Neolithic, which is present to one degree or another in all Europeans. The term shouldn't be used to refer only to post Neolithic migrations.

I think everyone knows that the Slavic migrations had an impact on both Albanian and Greek genetics. The question is how much.

Thanks, but we've discussed the Antonio et al paper at length.

We also all know by this point that Ashkenazi Jews are most like the people of Cyprus, Crete, and southern Italy. It's how they got that way that has to be answered more definitively.

We've discussed extensively whether conversion played a big part. I'm skeptical, given Ashkenazi ydna, that there were a lot of male converts. As to whether it was a female influx through conversion of non-Jewish wives, I think more extensive mtDna analysis has to be done. There are lots of papers on the subject, but this is not the thread for that discussion.
 
All the more odd that Samaritans show up as part of the admixture, and Jews, and even Cypriots, who the amateur community in particular maintain have quite a bit of "Levantine" ancestry.

Indeed, when speaking of "Near Eastern" ancestry, one should be including Anatolian Neolithic, which is present to one degree or another in all Europeans. The term shouldn't be used to refer only to post Neolithic migrations.

I think everyone knows that the Slavic migrations had an impact on both Albanian and Greek genetics. The question is how much.

Thanks, but we've discussed the Antonio et al paper at length.

We also all know by this point that Ashkenazi Jews are most like the people of Cyprus, Crete, and southern Italy. It's how they got that way that has to be answered more definitively.

We've discussed extensively whether conversion played a big part. I'm skeptical, given Ashkenazi ydna, that there were a lot of male converts. As to whether it was a female influx through conversion of non-Jewish wives, I think more extensive mtDna analysis has to be done. There are lots of papers on the subject, but this is not the thread for that discussion.
I included the four Mycenaean samples (I9006, I9033, I9010, I9041) and the Armenoi (I9123) one in a Eurogenes K15 PCA, and that's what came out. The purple ones are the Mycenaeans, the circled purple is the Mycenaean who got the Samaritan result, and the gold one is the Armenoi sample.
PCA-Copy.png

Regarding the western-Jewish/southern-Italian/Cypriot/Cretan affinity, there was an interesting discussion here,
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture, which you probably already know of. Haven't gone through much of it, just 5 pages, but still some interesting ideas.
 

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