Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

The linguistic assumptions here are not based on linguistic evidence, it is an assumption. They are the opinion of MILORAD STOJIC and should not be taken as something like a confirmed thing. Mysians and Dardanians moved into Troy together, so it seems they are connected, and the Brnjica zone falls within the heart of Dardania, not Mysia.

Linguists like Vanja Stanisic also thought Dardanians as potentially a stratum neither Thracian nor Illyrian, part of a group with Mysian and Phrygian, so this is potentially evidence for that.
I don't want to expand on this, but yes, i basically cited Milorad Stojić, http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2006/0350-02410656073S.pdf. He actually makes a reference to linguists himself although he doesn't expand on that. A citation of his to Garašanin (1983) could maybe elaborate but i don't have the time to dwell in it. As for boundaries, during the Roman period we had the provinces of "Moesia Superior" and "Moesia Inferior", with the former encompassing both the aforementioned cultures of Paracin and Brnjica, and much of Iron Age Dardania as well. But obviously Dardanians are a distinct group as attested by ancient authors; the Daco-Moesian or Moesian grouping pertains to a more general classification. Similar to the case of Triballi who are included in it.

1280px-Roman_Empire_Map_AlexanderFindlay1849.png


Other than that, during the Roman era "Moesia Superior" was probably the most multi-ethnic region in the Balkans. It seems four linguistic groups were found in the region of Dardania, namely Illyrian proper, Dalmatian-Pannonian, Thracian proper and Moesian (sub-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian). And as if those were not enough, the Romans in the 1st century CE allowed two mass relocations of more than 150,000 Geto-Dacians (trans-Danubian branch of Daco-Moesian) to Moesia Superior and Moesia Inferior (50,000 in the years of Augustus and over 100,000 in the years of Nero).

transdanubian.png


Now linguistically i haven't really dwell deep into Dardanian, but i have read that there was an evident Thracian element with an Illyrian influence at the western borders. For example read the following.

104114108-2609386645950610-1152211946782614835-n.jpg


Last, you know i disagree on Phrygian association but let's not expand on all these since they are unrelated to the thread.
 
If it is G25 modern, I would not necessarily believe it to be accurate. Since even Davidski questions the legitimacy of the samples, and is phasing it out. At any rate, Brick is right about Tuscans being east of Albanians.


It's not G25 modern, Tuscans like all other Northern-Central Italians are west of Albanians, not east.

The lack of accuracy of the G25 is mainly due to G25 itself rather than to modern samples in my opinion. Clearly Davidski will never admit it, he prefers to question the legitimacy of the modern samples that are the same used in academic studies.
 
It's not G25 modern, Tuscans like all other Northern-Central Italians are west of Albanians, not east.

The lack of accuracy of the G25 is mainly due to G25 itself rather than to modern samples in my opinion. Clearly Davidski will never admit it, he prefers to question the legitimacy of the modern samples that are the same used in academic studies.

That is correct! I meant to say Tuscans are west of Albanians. Sorry for the mental lapse.

Also, I agree G25 itself is probably inherently the issue.
 
drone viseo from Mycaenae,

offcourse the recent video compares the before and after fire looking

[video=youtube;m9QieVStB3w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=106&v=m9QieVStB3w&feature=emb_ logo[/video]
 
The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
Interesting how the distance sharply increases once you leave Peloponnese.

So far I notice a

1) Central, Northern, and Western Balkans substrate (BA Croatia)
2) An Aegean/Cretan substrate
3) Don’t know if an intermediate between the previous 2 or it’s own group of Southern and South-Eastern based on the Thracian and Peloponnesian.

Curious to know what’s the distance of the modern Greeks to these Cretan samples.

Thank you for sharing.
 
lR8xiAY.png


The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.

Nice application of the model you put together Jovialis.

Could you post more Mycenean - BA/IA Bulgarian comparisons.

My intuition keeps nudging me towards the North Hypothesis for Myceneans. And although this particular sample confirms my suspicions, it is far too little. Maybe if more samples are consistent a more reliable picture can be painted.
 
Can we not turn this thread into an Illyrian/Alabanian/Macedonian/Greek thread please?
 
Good to keep in mind. Do we know if Thracians were putting cremations into tumuli or just burying into tumulia

Earlier ones used inhumation, later ones, let's say from the 7-8th centuries BC used cremation for the most part. We cannot make these statements with 100% accuracy but let's just say that the vast majority followed that timeline. There are literally thousands of these things all over Thrace (Bulgaria, Western Thrace, Eastern Thrace) and most of them have not been excavated.
 
lR8xiAY.png


The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
Are these using the Dodecad K7b coordinates?

By the way, here is the respective Eurogenes K15 PCA. If you want i can also add the Cretan samples for comparison, i just made this quickly. I also include a Eurogenes K15 PCA with modern Greek samples that i saw in Anthrogenica some months ago.

K15-V4-Balkan-Samples.png


obrd-UYr-PCA-by-Greekscholar-www-anthrogenica-com.jpg
 
lR8xiAY.png


The Balkan Iron Age sample from Thracian Bulgaria is very close to Mycenaean I9033 in particular.
I updated the K15 PCA with additional samples, and also corrected I3313 which pertains to an Iron Age Dalmatian, not Bronze Age.
K15-V4-Balkan-Samples-Cropped.png


As a sidenote, there are many ancient Balkan samples published, as seen in this following figure from
"The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" (2018), but i cannot find all of the respective GEDmatch IDs, while for others that are available they seem outdated.
Balkan-Samples.png
 
Can we not turn this thread into an Illyrian/Alabanian/Macedonian/Greek thread please?
Can you a Greek from Thrace rather post a screenshot of your distance from the Thracian and Mycenaean samples?
 
Interesting, the Iron Age Greek (I9123) overlaps with modern Greeks from the mainland. It's the only post-Mycenaean sample we have of Ancient Greeks. After the supposed Iron Age migrations and the decline of the Bronze Age world. And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?

And look at the Bronze Age Bulgarian who overlaps with Ukrainians. It raises question marks. But given that there were some migrations during the Iron Age, and given that the Balkans had genetic variety, I think Classical Greeks may have been somewhat different compared to the Mycenaeans. Or at least, we shouldn't rule out that there may have been more genetic variety among Classical Greeks, than among Bronze Age Greeks.
 
Interesting, the Iron Age Greek (I9123) overlaps with modern Greeks from the mainland. It's the only post-Mycenaean sample we have of Ancient Greeks. After the supposed Iron Age migrations and the decline of the Bronze Age world. And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?

Isn't I9123 the so called Crete Armenoi? It's a Bronze Age sample (ca. 1370–1340 BCE), not Iron Age.

AtAP5O3.png
 
Interesting, the Iron Age Greek (I9123) overlaps with modern Greeks from the mainland. It's the only post-Mycenaean sample we have of Ancient Greeks. After the supposed Iron Age migrations and the decline of the Bronze Age world. And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?

And look at the Bronze Age Bulgarian who overlaps with Ukrainians. It raises question marks. But given that there were some migrations during the Iron Age, and given that the Balkans had genetic variety, I think Classical Greeks may have been somewhat different compared to the Mycenaeans. Or at least, we shouldn't rule out that there may have been more genetic variety among Classical Greeks, than among Bronze Age Greeks.
I9123 (Crete-Armenoi) is LBA not IA mate. Specifically its dated to 1370-1340 BCE. It's also a low quality sample as we have written again in the past, https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/892931776372498434. Let's wait for more samples to get a better picture. In any case, i do expect some level of heterogeneity in the future data, but nothing considerable.

A BA Bulgarian (dated to 1750-1625 BCE) plotting there is nothing out of the normal by the way when we consider the IE migrations largely expanding from the steppe.
 
The Thracian is even closer to Empuries samples than most Southern Italians. I wonder what result would those Classical (Empuries) samples show in Jovialis list. Probaly 3.8 or something.
As I said before an other sample from Southern Bulgaria plots similar to the Thracian one and it was from Bronze age.
 
And the specimen is from Crete no less. An indication that there were different people on the island during that time? Perhaps a recent arrival from the mainland?
I forgot to answer your question. Crete in general, especially during the BA, must have had a number of different people and languages spoken at the same time parallel to each other, also influencing one another as well. Homer also points to that in his Odyssey, where we read of Heteocretans, Cydonians, Achaeans, Dorians, and Pelasgians all living on the island. Specifically, in Rhapsody/Book 19 and lines 175-177, "There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities in it: the people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achæans, brave Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi. There is a great town there, Cnossus, where Minos reigned who every nine years had a conference with Jove himself.". As a side note, Cydonians are mentioned in another passage. While in the case of Dorians, it's probably a Homeric anachronism. Aside of that, i presume there were more than the aforementioned people present on the island, due to the island's geostrategic importance for trade facilitation.
 
@Jovialis, does I8215 (NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2)) have a GEDmatch kit number? If not, can we create one by using the file from ENA, https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/SAMEA5229461? It would be interesting to test what @ihype02 mentioned. There are five samples from Empúries making the Aegean BA cluster (Empúries2), but I8215 is the one plotting the closest to the modern Sicilian, southern Italian, and Greek clusters. It also happens to be the oldest of the five, dated to 400-350 BCE.
 
How well are the common people represented in ancient genetics? Are we just testing the elite and then generalizing about the farmers and the shepherds and the artisans? We know for sure that the Mycenaeans were bigger (taller and sturdier) than the common folk. Was there a stratification between the warrior class and the commoners? Were the commoners perhaps Pelasgians?
 

This thread has been viewed 1161724 times.

Back
Top