Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

It is so interesting that Helen fled from Sparta (a city founded by Dorians) in Iliad, and yet no major settlements in terms of archaeology has been found in Sparta during the times of Mycenaeans.
 
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How is that modern Peloponnesians are not even 15% J2a and yet Myceanean were enriched with this halpogroup?
How come no one thought about this?
 
How is that modern Peloponnesians are not even 15% J2a and yet Myceanean were enriched with this halpogroup?
How come no one thought about this?

Re-reading the paper might be in order.

75-79% of the autosomal make-up of the Mycenaeans was Neolithic farmer. The remainder was split between steppe and Iranian farmer, if you will, the latter presumably brought by J lineages.

Plus, if there's one thing we should know it's that primarily male-mediated gene flow might not have a one to one impact on the autosomal make-up, yes?

It is so interesting that Helen fled from Sparta (a city founded by Dorians) in Iliad, and yet no major settlements in terms of archaeology has been found in Sparta during the times of Mycenaeans.

You don't think it's to be expected that a text that old, written long after the events it describes, which deals with a story passed down in oral form long before a poem was composed and written about it, will have accumulated some historical anachronisms? Were you under the misapprehension that this is supposed to be accurate history in every detail?
 
Re-reading the paper might be in order.

75-79% of the autosomal make-up of the Mycenaeans was Neolithic farmer. The remainder was split between steppe and Iranian farmer, if you will, the latter presumably brought by J lineages.

Plus, if there's one thing we should know it's that primarily male-mediated gene flow might not have a one to one impact on the autosomal make-up, yes?

He was saying that they don't have high enough J2a, Ydna. He wasn't commenting on their autosomal dna
 
I don't know about how much J2a greeks have though i'm not saying greeks dont have enough. Just correcting a misunderstanding
 
I was talking about the contrast of J2a in Morea ONLY. Peloponnese was the center Myceanean civilization; Mycenae, Tiryns, Pylos.
On the other hand Peloponnese has <15% J2a According to the maps shown here.
 
Dorians were a peloponnesian tribe called Heracleides which moved northwards in central Greece, near the lake Doris. Thats why they are called Dorians, due to their starting point was Lake Doris in central Greece. They moved southwards then creating Sparta, and some of them went northwards, creating the kingdom of Macedonia. Both of those were said to be Dorians or Heracleides.

Your dellusions about an invasion of Greece from the North is just that. Delusions.

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a
Not Exactly! Greeks historians noted that Dorian's came from North. They spoke a dialect of Hellenic language. Dialects rise when some people switch from one language to another. Let say Sicilian dialect rose from switching from Sicilian language to Latin. That means Dorian's had probably spoken Albanian or some other pre-European language and switched to Hellenic. The Dorian dialect did not rise as a geographic seperation because historians wrote that Dorian came. When they did come to the area they had been Hellenized. They also developed they own version of art based on pre existing Greek ART.
 
He was saying that they don't have high enough J2a, Ydna. He wasn't commenting on their autosomal dna

Thanks, Johane, but I understood what he was saying. It still doesn't follow logically.

The only way you can speculate about whether the levels of a certain uniparental marker make sense is by looking at how much impact the migration which they represent had on the population, and the only way to do that is to look at the autosomal composition. How else can you determine what is too much or too little of any y line?

Very little ancestry in the Mycenaeans can be attributed to northeastern Anatolian/Iranian farmer like ancestry. Looking to later people after that point, the only migration about which we're sure would have been with people having more northern ancestry moving in with the Slavic invasions, and they are hardly likely to have brought J1 and J2, so 15% J2 doesn't seem "too little" to me necessarily.

Looking at Maciamo's charts, J2 in mainland Greece seems to run from 15-20%. I don't know why that would be "too little" given that there must have been some dilution with the Slavic migrations, and that if you want to go back to using things like admixture in Dienekes' K=7b Greeks are about 25% "West Asian". That looks like a pretty good match to me.

@everyone,

We have no clue what Y the "Dorians" carried or what they were like autosomally because as of yet we have no ancient samples. The results for the Mycenaeans should have taught us that all this constant, unsupported speculation is no match for ancient dna.


@ihype,
I don't get what you don't get. If mainland Greeks only have 25% West Asian, why is much more than 15-20% J2a such a necessity for you? It's a good correspondence, actually. You expect more based on what evidence?

Also, if you're going to refer to percentages, link to the study you're referencing.
 
Sorry, duplicate post.
 
I don't get what you don't get. If mainland Greeks only have 25% West Asian, why is much more than 15-20% J2a such a necessity for you? It's a good correspondence, actually. You expect more based on what evidence?

Also, if you're going to refer to percentages, link to the study you're referencing.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin
Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
J2a : 12.2
J2b : 5.7

--J2b is not Mycenaean-like. I was only talking about J2a. As a matter of fact many Armenians, Anatolians and Italians have settled in various parts of Greece, in this case Peloponnese. Which by the way might've actually increased the percentage of J2a, to certain degree, not entirely of course. The low frequencies of J2a in Peloponnese clearly shows that they have mixed with something else. (and drastically so)
 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin
Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
J2a : 12.2
J2b : 5.7

--J2b is not Mycenaean-like. I was only talking about J2a. As a matter of fact many Armenians, Anatolians and Italians have settled in various parts of Greece, in this case Peloponnese. Which by the way might've actually increased the percentage of J2a, to certain degree, not entirely of course. The low frequencies of J2a in Peloponnese clearly shows that they have mixed with something else. (and drastically so)

You're posting something from 2011?

I already provided the relevant data, a compilation of many and more recent sources, from Maciamo's charts. The percentages are 15-20% for mainland Greece, which isn't a bad fit for the amount of so called "West Asian" in them.

You still haven't revealed your actual point, if you have one.

As for the presence of a few Italians in mainland I fail to see what that has to do with anything, including the genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

This is an academic thread about the genetics of ancient peoples. It's not a linguistics thread or another place for the on-going Balkan wars.

GET BACK ON TOPIC.
 
^You are counting J2b in those results. J2a is less than 15%. J2 is 23% for of all Greece including islands. If Peloponnesians were largely Mycenaeans they should've scored more. You probably get my point but you've simply choosen to ignore the elephant in the room.
But whatever ....
 
Not Exactly! Greeks historians noted that Dorian's came from North. They spoke a dialect of Hellenic language. Dialects rise when some people switch from one language to another. Let say Sicilian dialect rose from switching from Sicilian language to Latin. That means Dorian's had probably spoken Albanian or some other pre-European language and switched to Hellenic. The Dorian dialect did not rise as a geographic seperation because historians wrote that Dorian came. When they did come to the area they had been Hellenized. They also developed they own version of art based on pre existing Greek ART.

No comment :))))
 
Source is in Greece. Macedonian dialect rose by language switching, so did Doric. Albanian borrowings from Greek are from this dialect.

When you find were Proto-Greek found,
and Makedonian was a primitive Greek when Attic spawn

then tell us again these.

it is obvious that IE communality
is not Albanian origin,
Neither all the coincidences some named.
 
@ both Giannopoulos and Triantaffylides from Patra and Auth,
Find it difficult to distinguish,

it seems Myceneans came straight of a IE core from S Caucasus
but there is where problem starts,

they moved straight to S Greece?
or they moved first to Vucedol-Vatin or Cetina and from there went south?

Myceneans + NW Graikoi Selloi are the IE part of Hellenism


Pothen_Ellines.jpg


mainly archaiology, no genetics.
 

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