Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Could be, as Jovialis is pointing out, that it is because you are using amateur calculators and in addition using them incorrectly.



Or that people here don't like
The levant and they disregard influence from there even if minor 5-10 % ....

P.s
I didn't claim mainland greeks have this influence
But modern day greek islanders and sicilians do
And mdlp k11 is not by davidski it is by vadim different person....
 
My take on this is that people want to deal with facts and try to stay with that the Academic research indicates with respect to DNA and genetic relationships. I use all these amateur calculators just like anyone else. However, I have never relied 100% on any one of them. I always run as many of them as possible and see who the amateur calculator results converge with the published DNA literature. So I just used Eurogenes K13 Ancient, which in the past has not been the best for Southern Europeans, particularly Greeks, Southern Italians (including Sicilians). However, I must say the Ancient samples now in the K13 Ancient is really impressive. So I did just 2 runs. The first I just used source data from Anatolian Neolithic (the Source for EEF) and Bronze Age and Neolithic Age Lazio Samples from Antonio et al 2019. So just with the source data below, I can get a 4 way admixture model and distance of 2.7.

Bar31_Anatolia_Early_Neolithic_,16.28,0.00,41.45,0.00,34.40,6.14,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.44,1.29
Bar8_Anatolia_N.SG_8071_ybp,10.93,0.00,45.07,0.00,40.17,3.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Bon002_Anatolia_N_Boncuklu.SG_10078_ybp,17.64,0.40,44.91,0.00,33.21,2.73,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.12,0.00,0.00
Boncuklu002,20.71,0.00,42.81,0.00,30.75,4.24,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.01,0.00,0.48
I0707_Anatolia_N_8092_ybp,7.33,0.00,46.18,0.00,41.13,5.35,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0708_Anatolia_N_8097_ybp,7.25,0.00,43.57,0.08,44.29,4.81,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0709_Anatolia_N_8086_ybp,8.75,0.00,46.20,0.00,40.49,4.57,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0723_Anatolia_N_7870_ybp,6.40,0.00,47.49,0.00,41.94,4.11,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.07,0.00,0.00
I0724_Anatolia_N_7950_ybp,12.29,0.00,47.43,0.00,35.97,4.05,0.00,0.00,0.26,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0726_Anatolia_N_7950_ybp,9.55,0.00,46.27,0.00,37.57,6.60,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0727_Anatolia_N_7950_ybp,1.40,0.00,51.31,0.00,41.58,5.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0736_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,9.05,0.00,43.92,0.00,42.32,4.71,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0744_Anatolia_N_8273_ybp,7.26,0.00,47.78,0.00,42.05,2.91,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I0745_Anatolia_N_8251_ybp,10.49,0.00,42.35,0.00,39.56,7.54,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.06,0.00,0.00
I1096_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,10.55,0.00,43.86,0.00,41.95,3.64,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1097_Anatolia_N_8288_ybp,5.09,0.00,47.04,0.00,44.06,3.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1098_Anatolia_N_8288_ybp,8.97,0.00,40.63,0.00,45.08,5.32,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1099_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,11.33,0.00,44.13,0.00,41.04,3.50,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1100_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,6.96,0.00,48.01,0.00,40.77,3.84,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.42,0.00,0.00
I1101_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,10.27,0.00,43.37,0.00,42.30,4.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1102_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,11.70,0.00,45.89,0.00,36.40,5.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.11,0.00,0.10
I1103_Anatolia_N_8300_ybp,5.63,0.00,46.90,0.00,39.72,7.71,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00
I1580_Anatolia_N_8195_ybp,7.32,0.00,47.45,0.00,38.61,6.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1581_Anatolia_N_8254_ybp,6.99,0.00,48.39,0.00,38.11,6.51,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1583_Anatolia_N_8281_ybp,4.17,0.00,48.75,0.00,41.73,5.35,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
I1584_Anatolia_C_5776_ybp,9.90,0.00,24.65,25.27,35.62,2.63,1.46,0.00,0.48,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Tep002_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8585_ybp,7.21,0.00,41.68,0.00,43.08,8.04,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Tep002_Tepecik_Ciftlik_level_5_c_6500_BCE_8500_BP_,12.96,0.00,33.37,1.13,39.75,9.07,0.00,0.00,0.44,0.00,0.00,2.71,0.54
Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp,4.96,0.00,32.53,11.24,45.49,5.78,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Tep004_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8295_ybp,6.08,0.00,34.12,0.84,45.53,13.43,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Tepecik002_Tepecik002_,12.96,0.00,33.37,1.13,39.75,9.07,0.00,0.00,0.44,0.00,0.00,2.71,0.54
R10_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,14.30,0.00,46.36,0.00,34.52,4.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R2_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,13.37,0.00,49.33,0.00,33.67,3.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R3_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,12.78,0.00,48.34,0.00,34.59,4.29,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R8_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,15.43,0.00,46.33,0.00,35.46,2.78,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R6_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,32.18,0.88,53.51,0.00,11.47,1.79,0.00,0.00,0.13,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00
R9_Abruzzo_Neolithic_Farmer_Italy,10.08,0.00,46.86,0.00,38.39,4.67,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy,28.96,13.59,21.58,9.88,19.66,3.43,0.00,0.00,1.43,0.99,0.48,0.00,0.00



Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 2.7970% / 2.79697573 | R6P | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.0R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
29.0I1584_Anatolia_C_5776_ybp
13.5Tep002_Tepecik_Ciftlik_level_5_c_6500_BCE_8500_BP_
12.5Tepecik002_Tepecik002_

If I use all 1,784 ancient Samples in the K13 Ancient, I can get a distance of 0.6742

Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 0.6742% / 0.67422881 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.1SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
14.8R131_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
14.3I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
7.1R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
7.1R35_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
2.6R132_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


So again, these various calculators to me are sensitive to the source samples included (do they capture ancestries for different populations accurately, or Not?), the estimation technique used (Statistical estimation), etc.
 
Or that people here don't like
The levant and they disregard influence from there even if minor 5-10 % ....
P.s
I didn't claim mainland greeks have this influence
But modern day greek islanders and sicilians do
And mdlp k11 is not by davidski it is by vadim different person....

It's a junk calculator for Italians. Doesn't get me any closer than a 5 in genetic distance. Even Eurogenes does better than that.

As for not "liking" Moorish influence in Sicily, I estimated such influence in Sicily at around perhaps seven percent long before you ever showed up here, based, by the way, on looking at both yDna and mtDna. Check for it; you'll find it.

So get your facts straight and stop throwing around of false accusations.
 
Or that people here don't like
The levant and they disregard influence from there even if minor 5-10 % ....

P.s
I didn't claim mainland greeks have this influence
But modern day greek islanders and sicilians do
And mdlp k11 is not by davidski it is by vadim different person....

Personally I have already explained my view, but no genetic paper shows this minor influence (precisely from the Levant) in either Sicilians or Greek islanders, and as to specify, Greek islanders aren't so different at all from (some) mainland Greeks given the distance between southern Peloponnesians (with whom Sicilians plot, a result known since 2014 and confirmed by the peloponnese paper, https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211) and Greek islanders is small. so what Greek islanders have likely also Greek mainlanders have.

It is far, far more likely that the Levant-like admixture in Sicilians in those models is north african (pre islamic-trade SSA gene flow), and actually I do not trust the samples you find in online calculators, especially when it comes to certain peoples that have been "trolled" relentlessly during the years (still now go take a look at the "sicilian" and "south Italian" results at the 23andMe subreddit from accounts who only post about south Italians and greek Islanders and talk about their having 50% (sic) "WANA" admixture). Naturally I hold my skepticism because of that trend and because of the discrepancy between online results and those of academic studies ( not that every study is the Truth, but usually they are more trustworthy and you can still say what they got wrong because of a certain transparency, whereas in the calculators I've seen online I can't get to know whether the samples are genuine or not.

According to the literature, south Italians don't have any levantine admixture and Sicilians and some Calabrese have some north african admixture, while as for Greek islanders I haven't seen many studies but judging from the results of the Cretan paper they don't seem to harbor any such ancestry (at least it wasn't detected, I recall, but if I am mistaken feel free to correct me of course).
The only paper I recall that supports this view is the "east med continuum" paper by Sarno, but it had serious flaws, as you can check if you check the "near east" label that spans populations from Anatolia to Jordan, so I think that the "near east" part in the admixtures was anatolian-like rather than Levantine-like.
 
Personally I have already explained my view, but no genetic paper shows this minor influence (precisely from the Levant) in either Sicilians or Greek islanders, and as to specify, Greek islanders aren't so different at all from (some) mainland Greeks given the distance between southern Peloponnesians (with whom Sicilians plot, a result known since 2014 and confirmed by the peloponnese paper, https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211) and Greek islanders is small. so what Greek islanders have likely also Greek mainlanders have.

It is far, far more likely that the Levant-like admixture in Sicilians in those models is north african (pre islamic-trade SSA gene flow), and actually I do not trust the samples you find in online calculators, especially when it comes to certain peoples that have been "trolled" relentlessly during the years (still now go take a look at the "sicilian" and "south Italian" results at the 23andMe subreddit from accounts who only post about south Italians and greek Islanders and talk about their having 50% (sic) "WANA" admixture). Naturally I hold my skepticism because of that trend and because of the discrepancy between online results and those of academic studies ( not that every study is the Truth, but usually they are more trustworthy and you can still say what they got wrong because of a certain transparency, whereas in the calculators I've seen online I can't get to know whether the samples are genuine or not.

According to the literature, south Italians don't have any levantine admixture and Sicilians and some Calabrese have some north african admixture, while as for Greek islanders I haven't seen many studies but judging from the results of the Cretan paper they don't seem to harbor any such ancestry (at least it wasn't detected, I recall, but if I am mistaken feel free to correct me of course).
The only paper I recall that supports this view is the "east med continuum" paper by Sarno, but it had serious flaws, as you can check if you check the "near east" label that spans populations from Anatolia to Jordan, so I think that the "near east" part in the admixtures was anatolian-like rather than Levantine-like.
Indeed, the Sarno (2017) paper identifies traces of Post-Neolithic Caucasus and Near-Eastern related ancestries. We already know of the Caucasus-related ancestry among the Minoans and Mycenaeans and the absence of Near-Eastern ancestry among them, but a Near-Eastern trace among the modern populations of the "Mediterranean genetic continuum" would suggest a more recent admixture event. At least i thought so initially, until i saw that in their admixture projection of ancient individuals that Near-Eastern component was also present in a similar/identical frequency among the Neolithic Anatolians, Eneolithic LBK, Eneolithic Hungary, etc., therefore i don't know why they refer to the Near-Eastern respective ancestry as Post-Neolithic when it appears to have been Neolithic or Eneolithic, and associated with the pre-IE farmers.
 

uCAEwICl.jpg


Here is a reface of Achilles of the movie Troy, I made with the Mycenaean Griffin Warrior.
 
A Talysh woman from Mukania (Mugan plain) in the Kura-Araxes region (South Caucasus):

i7z6_mukanian.jpg


Fresco of a Mycenaean (Mukênai) Woman, circa 1300 BC:

zdvl_mycenaean_.jpg
 
I can see it

Jimmy Page!, good one. Shows there are some folks here with not only bright minds, but great taste in music. All we need now is an Ancient reconstruction to look like John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and the late John Bonham and we can have a new band, the Led Zeppelin Ancients or Ancient Led Zeppelin.
 
pbSh7OF.png


Here is a screen cap from the lecture video by Lazaridis on the admixture rates for the Eastern and Northern Model.


I don't know about the Mycenaeans, particularly, but the Northern Model actually works well for my own personal genome, according to Maciamo's new and improved version of the the Dodecad K12b coordinates:

ZzmI3jJ.png

Interesting, but from 2017.

Lazaridis: “It could be some gradual arrival of migrants from steppe over a long time period that make the mainland somewhat different from Create”.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

Here is the video:

[Moderated]


The video cites the following study:

nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

and highlights the following figure:

nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello, I have recently become very interested in Greek history (mostly with regards to Christianity). I've watched many YouTube videos recently and came across one that suggests that the Minoans were more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks.

Here is the video:

[Moderated]

The video cites the following study:

nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

and highlights the following figure:

nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/tables/1

Is is true that the Minoans are more similar to modern western/northern Europeans than to modern Greeks?

No, Minoans are very far from Western/Northern Europeans. They do not even have steppe admixture in them. They are mostly Anatolian_N, with some Iran_N/CHG.
 
Last edited:

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