Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

As for later intrusions of R-Z2103 subclades, sure, it would be rational to presume that even without any knowledge, and indeed, R-Z2705 seems to have an Albanian origin. But it is a stretch to be claiming R-Z2705 as considerable, when descendants of Arvanites in Greece as a whole are approximately 200,000-250,000, and from the few samples that have been tested for Y-DNA, R-M269 doesn't seem to be a prominent haplogroup among them, http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ (down at the bottom the pie chart pertains to Arvanites' haplogroup distribution based on 14 samples, i know, few but still diverse). Nonetheless, there seems to be a Greek sample belonging to that clade, as is visible in YFull.

As for R-L584, yes it could be seen as a corroboration for what you write, but i am not aware of the frequency of R-L584 in Greece either. If it is rather small, then it could be due to an actual Armenian migration during the Medieval era,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Greece#Early_settlement.

Last, thanks for that map, it is very interesting. If this sample is actually factual, then it would only corroborate my case of R-Z2103 being a main clade among Mycenaeans, but the source seems to be Anthrogenica, and none of the samples that were published in the "
Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper identifies with it. After all, the paper only had a single Mycenaean male sample designated as J2a1. I am not excluding it, i would actually hope for it, but it would be nice to have the source (thread) and description of it.
Yeah, I guess it could be considered to be somewhat of a stretch, but that is only due to the fact that not many Greeks have tested. Which makes analysis pretty difficult, at least for me. The Greek Z2705>BY6197 sample is in fact of Arvanite origin from Preveza, he forms a subclade with an Albanian from Vlore on the tree.

Based on the Greek project on FTDNA, L584 does seem to be pretty common when it comes to Z2103. But then again, there are some Pontic Greeks within this clade which may indeed suggest West Asian input.
 
I still do not understand the effort of some people in this Forum to connect all ancient pre-Greek and Greek populations with R1b.
can you explain this to me..,


Yes i can explain in one word, firstly your putting this very wrong and thus not being rational...

I dont think anyone said ALL ancient pre-Greek and Greek populations associate with R1b or should be associated or has to be associated...well i cant explain more, just look at the studies and maybe try to be more rational...

As for me in the beginning i thought r1b was at least importance for these locations but now more I read the more am trying to be rational...
 
The classical Greek sample turning to be R1b-M269 does not suprise me at all. In fact I am sure this halpogroup was present in Myceaneans, given the Anatolia connection.
I always assumed after this study revealed J2a in Minoans and Myceaneans, that the Myceaneans carried R1b-M269 and G2a.
 
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The classical Greek sample turning to be R1b-M269 does not suprise me at all. In fact I am sure this halpogroup was present in Myceaneans, given the Anatolia connection.
I always assumed after this study revealed J2a in Minoans and Myceaneans, that the Myceaneans carried R1b-M269 and G2a.

Which classical Greek sample?
 
For Angela:
I thought the Greek-Empuries turned to be R1b-M269, I guess I must have misunderstood something.
 
For Angela:
I thought the Greek-Empuries turned to be R1b-M269, I guess I must have misunderstood something.

Yeah, all the males who were "Mycenaean" like turned out to be J. It would be interesting to know if it was J2b or J2a.

I wonder if the amateur community tried to resolve it further?
 
Mistakes happen. In my defense I also considered J2a a very Hellenic halpogroup before I saw the Myceanean study. But if I considered Thessalians, Epirotes and Macedonians as the descendants of the Myceanaens I wouldn't take this halpogroup in consideration, good thing that I didn't.
 
Mistakes happen. In my defense I also considered J2a a very Hellenic halpogroup before I saw the Myceanean study. But if I considered Thessalians, Epirotes and Macedonians as the descendants of the Myceanaens I wouldn't take this halpogroup in consideration, good thing that I didn't.

In general, Epirotes and Macedonians are thought to descend from Dorians. Thessalians are thought to be a mix of Aeolians and Dorians on the western end. The Myceneans are thought to be Achaians.
 
Would be interesting to see where this sample plots on an autosomal scale.
I have already reached out to the scientist that presented the sample. If there is any additional relevant information to share i will.
 
I have already reached out to the scientist that presented the sample. If there is any additional relevant information to share i will.

Not just that sample but all the samples that had quality autosomal DNA.
 
Not just that sample but all the samples that had quality autosomal DNA.
Yeah, i also asked for the rest of the ancient Ambracian samples that are visible in his presentation. Though i am not so sure this will come to fruition. If i don't get an answer from him, i will contact other members of the lab.
 
Yeah, i also asked for the rest of the ancient Ambracian samples that are visible in his presentation. Though i am not so sure this will come to fruition. If i don't get an answer from him, i will contact other members of the lab.

Thanks, Demetrios! It will be a wonderful addition to the collection of ancient DNA samples that Jovialis et al have assembled.
 
Yeah, i also asked for the rest of the ancient Ambracian samples that are visible in his presentation. Though i am not so sure this will come to fruition. If i don't get an answer from him, i will contact other members of the lab.

Great. It would be amazing to have some updates regarding this issue. It is quite a waste that we do have in fact genetic material of Classical mainland Greeks while it is not published yet.
 
Great. It would be amazing to have some updates regarding this issue. It is quite a waste that we do have in fact genetic material of Classical mainland Greeks while it is not published yet.
Yeah it was mentioned before and I was expecting it to be published in 2019. One wonders why haven't they published it yet.
It will probably never come out. How long did it take for the Myceanean study to be get published from the day the scientist started working in it?
 
It will a great thing to see more and more samples to be found to see if different Greek tribes have different genetic makeup, more or less steppe, the percentages of the different haplogroups.
 
Yeah it was mentioned before and I was expecting it to be published in 2019. One wonders why haven't they published it yet.
It will probably never come out. How long did it take for the Myceanean study to be get published from the day the scientist started working in it?

If I remember correctly, people who were aware of the Mycenaean study were expecting it for years. It was presented a year or two later than was expected. Let's see if we can get a scoop. Thumbs up.
 
I got a response from him. The translation of the original Greek message is the following.

"Hello Demetrios,

Thank you for your interest.

These samples will be analyzed in-depth (autosomal markers) in the near future as part of a research program. The results that i show in the presentation are preliminary and not final.

Sincerely,
Nikolaos Psonis"

The aforementioned preliminary presentation took place in the 16th of February, 2018 therefore i don't think it will be long before we have a publication, since 2 years have already passed. In any case, i asked him when can we approximately expect the paper. I will update you.
 
I got a response from him. The translation of the original Greek message is the following.

"Hello Demetrios,

Thank you for your interest.

These samples will be analyzed in-depth (autosomal markers) in the near future as part of a research program. The results that i show in the presentation are preliminary and not final.

Sincerely,
Nikolaos Psonis"

The aforementioned preliminary presentation took place in the 16th of February, 2018 therefore i don't think it will be long before we have a publication, since 2 years have already passed. In any case, i asked him when can we approximately expect the paper. I will update you.

Pseudoscience.....


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