Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

I was surprised Pontic Greeks plot so far away from Mycenaeans, even farther than mainland Greeks. I assumed because they have archaisms in their dialects, from ancient Greek, they would be closer to Mycenaeans. I thought they’d be less shifted because they didn’t have the Slavic invasions. The Pontics seem to genetically resemble their neighbors.
Pontic Greeks are similar to modern Lazes but not identical, they can be modelled as Laz plus 10-15% Ionic. We need samples right before the Greek colonization though to be sure.
 
Pontic Greeks are similar to modern Lazes but not identical, they can be modelled as Laz plus 10-15% Ionic. We need samples right before the Greek colonization though to be sure.

I expect that same percentage plus or minus 5% to be true for most Greek colonies throughout the Med and Black Seas.
 
I expect that same percentage plus or minus 5% to be true for most Greek colonies throughout the Med and Black Seas.
I agree, with the exception of southern Italy though. The reason it was named Magna Graecia was because more Greeks lived there in antiquity than in Greece itself.
 
I agree, with the exception of southern Italy though. The reason it was named Magna Graecia was because more Greeks lived there in antiquity than in Greece itself.

While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.
 
While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.
There is this following paper that studied the Griko (among others), "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean (2017)", and included them within a broader "Mediterranean genetic continuum". Namely, "In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’.". Griko populations (GRI_BOV, GRI_CAL, GRI_SAL) also clustered with the rest of Sicilians and southern Italians on PCA.

PCA-2.png


Other than that, i can't recall how they model with the Mycenaean samples. But i do know that many cluster with them. Also, the other day i ran a western Sicilian's Dodecad K7b coordinates against the ancient Aegean samples. Here are his results.

Andreas-Dodecad-K7b.png
 
There is this following paper that studied the Griko (among others), "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean (2017)", and included them within a broader "Mediterranean genetic continuum". Namely, "In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’.". Griko populations (GRI_BOV, GRI_CAL, GRI_SAL) also clustered with the rest of Sicilians and southern Italians on PCA.

PCA-2.png


Other than that, i can't recall how they model with the Mycenaean samples. But i do know that many cluster with them. Also, the other day i ran a western Sicilian's Dodecad K7b coordinates against the ancient Aegean samples. Here are his results.

Andreas-Dodecad-K7b.png
Oh, I totally agree that the Griko people would cluster with the Southern Italians and the Sicilians would cluster with Minoans and Myceneans. A bit removed from the Modern Greeks. Of course we also need classical Greece samples to compare them with.
 
While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.

I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.
 
I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.
Well, that is a known fact obviously. Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Mycenaeans for example despite being relatively close. Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews tend to do though. The aforementioned paper had also the following to say, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".
 
Yes, I've read the paper already.

Well, that is a known fact obviously. Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Mycenaeans for example despite being relatively close. Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews tend to do though. The aforementioned paper had also the following to say, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".
 
I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.

True. Genetic closeness is seen between Greece, Sicily and south Italy in multiple studies, implying old genetic relationships. A few mainland Greeks overlap with Sicilians and a number are close to them. Would be very surprised to see Archaic through Medieval Greeks being very far outside of the area encompassing Mycenaeans, Minoans and modern people of the aforementioned regions.
 
My distances vs. Mycenaean and Minoans using, Dodecad 12B, Eurogenes K13 and K15. I get closer distances to the Mycenaean Greeks so my results are in line with what all the extant studies have demonstrated.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
11.55112549I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
12.32164762I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.46343452I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
13.62262456I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
17.08555823I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
18.31004369I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
18.89246675I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
21.19933961I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
21.43358346I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
28.46546328I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
30.89318048I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
10.35133325I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
10.48649608I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
14.96395001I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
15.57234086I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
16.94984071I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp



Distance to:PalermoTrapani
10.46008604Mycenaean_I9041
12.84337962Mycenaean_I9006
17.12174057Minoan_Lasithi_I9005
20.82740022Minoan_Lasithi_I0074
22.76743288Minoan_Lasithi_I0073
 
Demetrios: Thanks my friend for reminding me about my Dodecad K7 distances, I went back to that thread and saved the Ancient Greek Dodecad K7 coordinates that Jovialis provided.

Cheers
 
Demetrios: Thanks my friend for reminding me about my Dodecad K7 distances, I went back to that thread and saved the Ancient Greek Dodecad K7 coordinates that Jovialis provided.

Cheers
Yeah, no worries. By the way, it seems the Mycenaean samples through Dodecad K7b give good distances for the Greek average as well, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page81?p=601069&viewfull=1#post601069. I also like the modern distances it gives.

Greek-Dodecad-K7b.png
 
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
 
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
The modern samples used in the "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years (2019)" paper are taken from the "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans (2014)", therefore there were 11 Sicilian samples as this following table attests, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/table/T2/?report=objectonly, as well as page 60 of its supplementary information.
 
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?

For me Eurogenes K13 but I have no idea about the rest of the people.
 
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
Forgot to answer the second question. I personally like Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K7b (as aforementioned).
 

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