Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Yetos]

this study about the Myceneans was not out yet when the reconstruction was made, right?

yup

reconstruction is earlier

 

[MOESAN]

What a storm concerning the reconstruction of ONE man! - reconstruction of mean value, surely not too good, not too bad. Where was picked the affirmation he was blond haired??? and ONE man doesn't make a folk, even in ancient time.
And what we have to date is data indicating AND continuity AND slight enough changes since Neolithic to modern Mycenians, through Minoans and Mycenians, and about few people of different places. the EHG supposed steppic with tiny CHG in Mycenians must keep us prudent and could have been absorbed through at least two hypothetic ways. No more certainty. I personally suppose the complementary auDNA of Mycenians could have been send by Steppic people mixed with former "Europeans" not far from the western coasts of the Black Sea but it's only supposition todate, spite it has, I think, the support of ancient thesis (but I'm very weak here)...
believe

 

[curiouscat]

this online calculator is using K36 and a spreadsheet based on living people found on gedmatch.

K36 is using in its evaluation very few SNPs for these three ancient samples. An average modern sample has 160000/170000 SNPs used for this evaluation.

M472594 - 20375 SNPs used in this evaluation

M715422 - 69274 SNPs used in this evaluation

M740087 - 26775 SNPs used in this evaluation

K36 is inflating the Italian component for these three ancient samples. These results should be taken with a grain of salt, because all these three ancient samples have very few components on K36.

Usually over 30000 SNPs it's enough to see a less noisy result, but it's true these calculators are not perfect and shouldn't be taken guaranteed.

The reason why the Italian component peaks in many of these ancient samples is because modern Italians are largely descend from Neolithic migrations from Anatolia/Mesopotamia. Keep in mind that 5-8000 years ago most ancestors of modern Italians lived in Anatolia.

 

[curiouscat]

Interesting maps. The square on northeast Turkey is oddly closer than other territories than I'd expect.

I think that NE Turkey sample is from Trabzon and they are largely descendants of Byzantines including Hellenes. Western Turks are often of recent migrant descent (Kurds, Iranians, Uzbeks, Arabs, Balkans) - Usually the mix of these

 

[Fire Haired14]

Sweet Maps. Looks like Anatolia_BA is the first legitimate match for modern Turks and Cypriots.

 

[Boss]

Well if we knew more about the method they used. For me the most weird thing about it is the space between the eyes, and maybe the space between the nose and lips or the shape of the lips. Today wavy brown hair are more common.

Concerning pigmentation, he doesn't seem that dark to me.

I have a grandmother from there (near Pylos) who is much lighter but the people of the village probably have ancestry from Franks and Latins.

I dislike how reductionist these sort of arguments get as if curly hair means Greek. Also, it's not that the Mycenaean reconstruction has a particularly dark skin complexion, it's not that it's dark, it's just a weird skin complexion. Bronze? wtf is that?

I will post a random pic of a Greek to illustrate what I mean

View attachment 9062

This dude is not "light skinned" either. But it's the whole look, the symmetry (or lack thereof as the case may be), the colours, the face shape that screams "I'M GREEK".

The so-called Mycenaean in that pic looks like Conan or Pocahontas's dad, not particularly Greek.

Again, that is my view and it is as valid as any other Greek's. It is more valid if we're talking about Cretan Greeks which I am one and I assume, most people here aren't.

 

[davef]

Boss, your username and avatar are awesome!

I'll admit, I have no idea what a common Greek looks like...I've never even been to Greece to begin with.

 

[MOESAN]

9062: "invalid attachment"

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
The Myceneans have a rich palette of colours,- and I dare as far I well know- that it was more sophisticated than Minoans, which they didn't have so big variety of colours and tones.
So why we dont have a depicted -till now-, blond mycenean but on contrary the trend or the usual without exception by far is the dark hair among them? If there was present at their time and since they had a great variety of ochre and browns and yellows why all these artists of the antiguity abanoned the possibility for more "expression"?
For the curly hair as mentioned if not was a common trait, sure it is a longlived fashion trend for the local population of the peninsula. -Hmm?

We also have an enourmous numbers of pieces to say; -fragments or splinters; -of frescoes, actually a couple of hundreds of thousands and they reconstructed are a couple or triple of hundreds till now...
So, we have to wait... as many times said for the Dna, as well we can say for the rest of the fragments...


That;s what we have until now,

... that's what they are.


Interesting is the case of the dog, could that be a mollosus dog by the way?
If is for someone difficult to classify human persons, the classification of sheeps is far more difficult...

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Phenotypically the Mycaenean image resembles a Dodecanese Islander particularly those from Kalymnos. I grew up around several and was stricken by their pronounced features.

Woa @Matwadorf
Thanks about that, I've been for several years to the islands... Remember some of the locals at Kos call me Calymnian!
I am Sarakatsanian Epirot both parents.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.

΅What's wrong with football? Lol !!!

This one must be a goalkeeper. Lol.

http://www.mixanitouxronou.gr/stin-archea-ellada-epezan-ke-podosfero/

Unfortunately is only in greek. sorry.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Anyway he looks like me and I had a lot of fun with the previous posts especially that one of @Jovialis

I am amazed, It is not only the mature man but well reminds me as an adolescent.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I dislike how reductionist these sort of arguments get as if curly hair means Greek. Also, it's not that the Mycenaean reconstruction has a particularly dark skin complexion, it's not that it's dark, it's just a weird skin complexion. Bronze? wtf is that?

I will post a random pic of a Greek to illustrate what I mean

View attachment 9062

This dude is not "light skinned" either. But it's the whole look, the symmetry (or lack thereof as the case may be), the colours, the face shape that screams "I'M GREEK".

The so-called Mycenaean in that pic looks like Conan or Pocahontas's dad, not particularly Greek.

Again, that is my view and it is as valid as any other Greek's. It is more valid if we're talking about Cretan Greeks which I am one and I assume, most people here aren't.

We can't see the attachment.

 

[curiouscat]

I assume the light skin specific genetic alleles came with Steppe migrations. Minoans were almost homogeneously brunette based on the paintings and their genetic footprint suggest it also.
Mycenaeans already carried ~ 15-20% Corded Ware/Steppe admixture compared to Minoans (and spoke a clear Indo European language belong in the same subclade with the proto-Armenian branch) and We can see on some paintings a few Mycenaean Hellene had lighter features, but modern Mainland Greeks seem to carry extra 25-30% Steppe/Bell Beaker like admixture that likely came with the assimilation of Vlachs and other considerably steppe influenced populations.
There's been Slavic settlements documented in Thessaly "Wallachia"' just after 200 AD

 

[Yetos]

I assume the light skin specific genetic alleles came with Steppe migrations. Minoans were almost homogeneously brunette based on the paintings and their genetic footprint suggest it also.
Mycenaeans already carried ~ 15-20% Corded Ware/Steppe admixture compared to Minoans (and spoke a clear Indo European language belong in the same subclade with the proto-Armenian branch) and We can see on some paintings a few Mycenaean Hellene had lighter features, but modern Mainland Greeks seem to carry extra 25-30% Steppe/Bell Beaker like admixture that likely came with the assimilation of Vlachs and other considerably steppe influenced populations.
There's been Slavic settlements documented in Thessaly "Wallachia"' just after 200 AD

plz
don't mix Vlachs with Slavs,
especially of Thessaly which are Kutsuk-Vlachs
Vlachs, mainly Mengle have Slavic admixture which vary according origin, from 0% to very high % (Antes)
but all Vlachs are not Slavs,
some are local balkan people Latinised,
some are Romans,
some are Gaulish and even Germanic sccording the Lagio they were.
homeland of Vlachs is not Wallachia neither Romania

 

[curiouscat]

plz don't mix Vlachs with Slavs, especially of Thessaly which are Kutsuk-Vlachs Vlachs, mainly Mengle have Slavic admixture which vary according origin, from 0% to very high % (Antes) but all Vlachs are not Slavs, some are local balkan people Latinised, some are Romans, some are Gaulish and even Germanic sccording the Lagio they were. homeland of Vlachs is not Wallachia neither Romania

How do you explain that Thessalians barely differ genetically from Bulgarians? I'm mostly East Slavic genetically and get loads of Mainland Greek matches on family finder. It's not that I have Greek ancestry otherwise I'd match with "purer" Greek groups like Cretan Greeks are.

 

[Yetos]

How do you explain that Thessalians barely differ genetically from Bulgarians? I'm mostly East Slavic genetically and get loads of Mainland Greek matches on family finder. It's not that I have Greek ancestry otherwise I'd match with "purer" Greek groups like Cretan Greeks are.

which part Thessalians, and which part Bulgarians?
Bulgaria also had enough Roman and Celtic and Thracian, and plenty of Greek
and which Vlachs you are reffering too?

 

[Dianatomia]

How do you explain that Thessalians barely differ genetically from Bulgarians? I'm mostly East Slavic genetically and get loads of Mainland Greek matches on family finder. It's not that I have Greek ancestry otherwise I'd match with "purer" Greek groups like Cretan Greeks are.

Thessalians overall differ substantially from Bulgarians overall. No point in comparing individuals. Besides, why do you have to match closer to so called 'pure" Greeks like Cretans in order to have Greek ancestry? It is not as if you are "pure" Greek to start with. You could be "mostly" Greek and match with Thessalians. While some Thessalians could be "pure" Greek and match with Cretans. In any case, Greeks or Thessalians overall don't match with East Slavs. So if you match with mainland Greeks, than this is obviously not due to the East Slav connection, but the Greek connection.

 

[LATGAL]

I assume the light skin specific genetic alleles came with Steppe migrations. Minoans were almost homogeneously brunette based on the paintings and their genetic footprint suggest it also.

Checking the paper, the Minoan and the Mycenaean samples didn't particularly differ in derived-ancestral pigmentation allele frequencies which probably makes sense considering the generally paltry apparent steppe ancestry in these Mycenaeans. In particular, they are both fixed derived at rs1426654 (like modern Europeans) and have similar to each other but possibly lower frequencies of derived rs16891982 compared to modern Greeks, consistent with both later selection for lighter skin and the larger northern admixture you mentioned compared to the samples. The same thing seems to be the case with the other SNPs too, no extraordinary differences in frequencies but overall likely more present-day depigmentation than the samples.

 

[wvwv]

In other words modern Greeks are nothing like Mycenaean Greeks, and even less Minoan Greeks.

Oh really

The Times
Greeks descend from Homer’s Mycenaean heroes
OLIVER MOODYThe Times12:00AM August 4, 2017

If you want to see the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium, you need only look to the boulevards of 21st-century Athens.

Modern Greeks are largely the descendants of the Bronze Age Mycenaean civilisation immortalised in Homer’s epic poems about the Trojan war, according to a genetic study that could tear up ancient history textbooks. They are also the nearest surviving relatives of the shadowy Minoan culture on Crete, which introduced writing to Europe and inspired the myths of Icarus and the Minotaur.

Alissa Mittnik, a molecular biologist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, one of the paper’s authors, said there was evidence of a strong continuity between both civilisations and today’s Greeks. “Modern Greek people are very closely related to the Mycenaeans and Minoans,” she said. “That was one of the very interesting findings.”