Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

40-60% bronze age look very high to me
i think more in the 30 % levant bronze age would be the right number

here is mine :


Target: Adam
Distance: 0.3357% / 0.33566173
28.4Minoan_Lasithi_I0070
21.1Levant_BA
18.0Bell_Beaker
7.9Hungary_IronAge
6.6Corded_Ware_Estonia
5.4Armenia_MLBA
3.1Satsurblia_CHG
3.0Natufian
2.1Kotias_CHG
1.4Minoan_Odigitria_I9131
1.1MiddleDorset_Arctic
1.0Alberstedt_LN
0.9Armenia_EBA
Target: Adam
Distance: 0.3357% / 0.33566173
28.4Minoan_Lasithi_I0070
21.1Levant_BA
18.0Bell_Beaker
7.9Hungary_IronAge
6.6Corded_Ware_Estonia
5.4Armenia_MLBA
3.1Satsurblia_CHG
3.0Natufian
2.1Kotias_CHG
1.4Minoan_Odigitria_I9131
1.1MiddleDorset_Arctic
1.0Alberstedt_LN
0.9Armenia_EBA



p.s
i am 1/4 bulgarian so that could effect the results a little bit ( hungary iron age+ corded ware estonia)
and 1/4 mizrahi that could be the showing (chg allells + armenia MLB)


Can this Levant admixture be separated into 2 parts ?

ie....lebanon levant was still under the Hittites up to 1100BC and still spoke luwian until 600BC

israel levant was phoenician and philistine lands

so, can 2 different levant admixtures be done ?
 
Torzio: Eurogenes K13 has the ancient Sidon Samples which are from what would be the Phoenician era are close to it. These samples are from about 1700 BC or 3,700 years ago. So I think these samples would be a good proxy for Phoenicians that started the Pheonician civilization which seems to appear in the written records of the Egyptians shortly after, around 1500 BC.
 
Torzio: Eurogenes K13 has the ancient Sidon Samples which are from what would be the Phoenician era are close to it. These samples are from about 1700 BC or 3,700 years ago. So I think these samples would be a good proxy for Phoenicians that started the Pheonician civilization which seems to appear in the written records of the Egyptians shortly after, around 1500 BC.

So it this sidon sample a Phoenician due to some type of phoenician trading post or was it a person under hittite rule

we know by history , that the hittite-egyptian border was still 10km south of Kadesh.......see map below

this border remained in place until the demise of the Hittites








Syrian-lebaon border Kadesh is spelt
[h=1]Qadesh - Tell Nebi Mend[/h]
 
Torzio: I think the Egyptians sent trading merchants to that area around 1,500 BC and that is when their were contacts between Ancient Egyptians at that time and the ancient Phoenicians and thus appearing in the Egyptian texts. The Phoenician territory was more coastal along what is modern Syria and Lebanon to modern Northern Israel, with coastal Lebanon being the core of the territory, consistent with them being traders using shipping and sea lanes for trading, (i.e. Sea Peoples so to speak).
 
Torzio: I think the Egyptians sent trading merchants to that area around 1,500 BC and that is when their were contacts between Ancient Egyptians at that time and the ancient Phoenicians and thus appearing in the Egyptian texts. The Phoenician territory was more coastal along what is modern Syria and Lebanon to modern Northern Israel, with coastal Lebanon being the core of the territory, consistent with them being traders using shipping and sea lanes for trading, (i.e. Sea Peoples so to speak).


I think the proper term for the border was

[h=1]Qadesh - Tell Nebi Mend and Not Kadesh ..............the battle was fought at Kadesh, who knows [/h]
 
Torzio: I really don't know about the genetic affinity of those Sidon samples. I need to go find the paper that analyzed them. All I am suggesting is that they can provide a reasonable proxy for the genetic admixture or genetic profile of peoples in that area at that time including not only Phoenicians, but Canaanites, Samaritans, etc.
 
Torzio: Here is an article that focused specifically on the Sidon Samples. I have not read this paper but I think I will check it out. A quick read of the abstract indicates that the ancient Greeks referred to the Canaanites as Phoenicians so assuming the ancient Greeks were accurate, it suggest these ancient Sidon samples are a reasonable source to try to capture Phoenician ancestry vs. other ancestry further North in the Levant, say Hittites, etc.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929717302768
 
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I think the levant bronze age in mdlp k11
Is based on jordan bronze age rather than sidon bronze age ... :unsure:
( but i might be wrong )
 
..,the british roman 15.9% is realy a levantine gladiator from york
so this could be levantine influence .... ‘

Vahaduo MDLP K11 British Roman:

Target: British_Roman
Distance: 2.8738% / 2.87381497
84.2Levant_BA
10.0Armenia_MLBA
3.9Ancient_Neandertal
1.0Satsurblia_CHG
0.9Iran_Chalcolithic

Target: Duarte
Distance: 0.1912% / 0.19121953
19.8Bell_Beaker
13.3GermanStuttgart_LBK
12.1Bell_Beaker_Czech
9.0Samara_HG
5.2GermanStuttgart_LBK
5.1Greek_Neolithic
5.1Levant_BA
4.8Baltic_LBA
4.8LBK_EN
2.7GoyetQ53_1_Gravettian
2.4Minoan_Lasithi_I0070
2.1Natufian
1.8Denisovan
1.6Tyrolean_Iceman_EN
1.5Ancient_Australian
1.4Salzmuende_MN
1.3Neandertal_Altai
1.2Ancient_Denisova
1.2Hungary_CA
1.1AfontovaGora3_Paleolithic
0.8Halberstadt_LBA
0.7Neandertal_Mezmaiskaya
0.4Ancient_Neandertal
0.4Levant_N
0.1Clovis_Amerindian
0.1Esperstedt_MN

Target: British_Roman
Distance: 2.8889% / 2.88891241 | ADC: 0.25x RC
83.4Levant_BA
6.7Armenia_LBA
6.3Iran_Chalcolithic
3.6Denisovan

Target: Duarte
Distance: 1.9604% / 1.96038514 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.3Maros_BA
24.7Crete_Armenoi_I9123
16.6Bell_Beaker_Czech
9.6Levant_BA
5.8Mota_EastAfrica
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

“The European ancestral component predominates in the majority of ancient samples (which show similar profiles to modern northwestern Europeans), whereas 3DRIF-26 again shows a majority West Asian/Middle Eastern component.”
L0xJ3Z7.jpg



https://static-content.springer.com...cts/41467_2016_BFncomms10326_MOESM417_ESM.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326#MOESM417


 
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Vahaduo MDLP K11 British Roman:

Target: British_Roman
Distance: 2.8738% / 2.87381497
84.2Levant_BA
10.0Armenia_MLBA
3.9Ancient_Neandertal
1.0Satsurblia_CHG
0.9Iran_Chalcolithic

Target: Duarte
Distance: 0.1912% / 0.19121953
19.8Bell_Beaker
13.3GermanStuttgart_LBK
12.1Bell_Beaker_Czech
9.0Samara_HG
5.2GermanStuttgart_LBK
5.1Greek_Neolithic
5.1Levant_BA
4.8Baltic_LBA
4.8LBK_EN
2.7GoyetQ53_1_Gravettian
2.4Minoan_Lasithi_I0070
2.1Natufian
1.8Denisovan
1.6Tyrolean_Iceman_EN
1.5Ancient_Australian
1.4Salzmuende_MN
1.3Neandertal_Altai
1.2Ancient_Denisova
1.2Hungary_CA
1.1AfontovaGora3_Paleolithic
0.8Halberstadt_LBA
0.7Neandertal_Mezmaiskaya
0.4Ancient_Neandertal
0.4Levant_N
0.1Clovis_Amerindian
0.1Esperstedt_MN

Target: British_Roman
Distance: 2.8889% / 2.88891241 | ADC: 0.25x RC
83.4Levant_BA
6.7Armenia_LBA
6.3Iran_Chalcolithic
3.6Denisovan

Target: Duarte
Distance: 1.9604% / 1.96038514 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.3Maros_BA
24.7Crete_Armenoi_I9123
16.6Bell_Beaker_Czech
9.6Levant_BA
5.8Mota_EastAfrica
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

“The European ancestral component predominates in the majority of ancient samples (which show similar profiles to modern northwestern Europeans), whereas 3DRIF-26 again shows a majority West Asian/Middle Eastern component.”
L0xJ3Z7.jpg



https://static-content.springer.com...Objects/41467_2016_BFncomms10326_MOESM417_ESM.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326#MOESM417



yes he was a gladiator found in york
a cool dude he belonged to haplogroup j2 :cool-v:
and autosomally was different from the other gladiators
might have been north egyptian or nabataeans background :unsure:
 
It's obvious that Greeks as a whole have never belonged to the same genetic lineage as Western/Eastern Europeans. They're a midde population between them and the Near East.
 
@KingJohn,

Ancient Cretans are not from the Levant.

Crete for a time was influenced by the Moors, in the Middle Ages.

The population history of Crete can be traced to the early Neolithic when the island was colonized by farmers from Anatolia who established in Knossos, at about 7000 B.C.E., one of the first Neolithic settlements in Europe (Evans, 1994); other Neolithic settlements were subsequently established all over Crete (Tomkins, 2008). These Neolithic settlers and subsequent waves of Neolithic migrants (Broodbank & Strasser, 1991; Cherry, 1981; Nowicki, 2008; Weinberg, 1965) established the first advanced European civilization, the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Crete from 3000 to about 1450 B.C.E. (Evans, 1921). The island was subsequently conquered by the Myceneans of mainland Greece (Bennet, 2011; Chadwick, 1976; deFidio, 2008) who ruled from around 1450 to 1100 B.C.E. Homer (1650) describes Crete as a populous island with 90 cities inhabited by several tribes: the Achaeans, who correspond to the people now called Myceneans (Bennet, 2011; Schofield, 2007); the Pelasgians who were the pre‐Hellenic population of the Helladic space (Herodotus, 1999; Strabo, 2006); the Eteocretans (Cretans of the old stock); the Kydonians; and the Dorians (Strabo, 2006). Eteocretans and Kydonians were considered to be autochthonous Cretans while the other tribes originated from Greece (Strabo, 2006). There is little of significance coming from Crete during the classical times other than the frequent wars between the city‐states (Detorakis, 2015). Following the Hellenistic period during which there is no record of population migrations to Crete, the island was conquered in 69 B.C.E. by the Romans (Sanders, 1982). The almost 400 years of Roman occupation was followed by about 500 years of relatively peaceful rule by the Byzantines (Tsougarakis, 1988) until Crete fell in 827 C.E. to Arab exiles from Andalusia (Brooks, 1913; Christides, 1984; Detorakis, 2015; Vassiliev, 1980). The Arab Emirate of Crete was frequently raided the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean, but after 134 years of Arab rule, the island was recaptured in 961 C.E. by the Byzantines (Norwich, 1998; Vassiliev, 1980). The 243 years of the second Byzantine rule ended when the Byzantine Empire fell to the Francs and the Venetians of the Fourth Crusade. The Venetians purchased the island in 1204 C.E. from the crusader Boniface of Montferrat; they ruled Crete for 465 years and established a feudal system that provoked several revolutions of the population (Detorakis, 2015; Xanthoudidis, 1939). From 1645 to 1669, Ottomans and Venetians fought for 24 years over Crete and the island was captured by the Ottomans who ruled for 267 years during which the Cretans revolted several times (Detorakis, 2015). The island gained its autonomy in 1889 and was unified with Greece in 1913.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328

This is why people should read genetic studies, corroborated with historical references, rather than making false assumptions with amateur calculators. Also, you are running those calculators without any ADC penalty, so it is producing nonsensical results.
 
The Moors were mostly North African Berbers, which is why they could be modeled with bringing a Levant_BA-like contribution. Because the Levant was strongly influenced by the lasting impact of the Natufians, who were descended from ancient North Africans. Also Arabs had invaded North Africa several times as well. Ergo, this so called "Levant_BA" influence, is from Moors brought in the Middle Ages, not ancient times. The Ancient Greeks, and Romans were not Levantine.
 
@KingJohn,

Ancient Cretans are not from the Levant.

Crete for a time was influenced by the Moors, in the Middle Ages.



This is why people should read genetic studies, corroborated with historical references, rather than making false assumptions with amateur calculators. Also, you are running those calculators without any ADC penalty, so it is producing nonsensical results.


Ok the ancient minoan
Didn't carry this signiture
But modern cretans and other greek islanders do

..
Could be the moors influence as you mention
Is why we see it
 
Cretans and Sicilians are far closer genetically to the ancient Greeks. A trivial amount of admixture from the middle ages does not negate that.


I know but it is still there even if in low %
 
I know but it is still there even if in low %

And of course it doesn't matter. This is just about being accurate.

Also, just like it shouldn't matter that Ashkenazi are more European, than they are Semitic/Levantine.


[FONT=&quot]In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures [/FONT]4[FONT=&quot]a, [/FONT]S17[FONT=&quot], and [/FONT]S18[FONT=&quot]). Southern European and Mediterranean ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews has also been demonstrated before (Atzmon et al., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2010[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; Behar et al., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2010[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; Bauchet et al., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2007[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; Price et al., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2008[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; Seldin et al., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2006[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; Tian et al., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2008[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share.

[/FONT]
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328
 
Ok the ancient minoan
Didn't carry this signiture
But modern cretans and other greek islanders do
..
Could be the moors influence as you mention
Is why we see it

Could be, as Jovialis is pointing out, that it is because you are using amateur calculators and in addition using them incorrectly.
 
The Moors were mostly North African Berbers, which is why they could be modeled with bringing a Levant_BA-like contribution. Because the Levant was strongly influenced by the lasting impact of the Natufians, who were descended from ancient North Africans. Also Arabs had invaded North Africa several times as well. Ergo, this so called "Levant_BA" influence, is from Moors brought in the Middle Ages, not ancient times. The Ancient Greeks, and Romans were not Levantine.

Do they miss you at anthrogenica even though they banned you?

So, they have to come here to debate you? :)
 
Jovialis/King John: I went to the K13 Eurogenes on Vahaduo, which has really added lots of samples to that K13 Ancient Spreadsheet. I just ran my K13 coordinates against the ancient Levant and North African samples that I found on there (and included the Gladiator from England who was from the Levant). So nothing close, but closest among them are the Sidon Samples which are close to what was the Phoenician territory and from the time period when the Phoenicians were at their peak of power. So Phoenician/Carthaginian period in Sicily, Roman period (Imperial) with migrants from the Levant and later Saracen_Muslim period) you in my opinion pretty much get Sicily, and all of Southern Italy, pretty much where it was during the Greek/Roman period and no later than Imperial Roman period which is Sicilians, Southern Italians, etc plot with the Ancient Romans from that period (Antonio et al 2019) and when you move 2,000 years later, Parolo et al 2015 (Figure 1), Sazzini et al 2016 (Figure 2) , Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 1). Results are presented with Gradiant of 100 for clearer resolution.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani
28.66420241Sidon_BA_ERS1790729_
29.27878925Sidon_BA_ERS1790730_
30.4968686965_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3650_ybp
30.56379067KEB_4_(Morocco_5000_BP_keb.4_Morocco_378003650y.old
31.0188620063_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3650_ybp
31.13120942Sidon_BA_ERS1790732_
31.7848769154_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3770_ybp
32.46734359Sidon_BA_ERS1790733_
32.52556533JK2134_Egypt_New_Kingdom_3250_ybp
32.60410710Sidon_733_Lebanon_
33.21028907Sidon_731_Lebanon_
33.22275877Sidon_BA_ERS1790731_
34.613628823DT26_England_Roman_MiddleEast.SG_1750_ybp
35.85934048I1699_Jordan_PPNC_8700_ybp
36.04020116I0867_Israel_PPNB_8700_ybp
36.08874340JK2888_Egypt_Hellenistic_2000_ybp
36.14046071I0867_LevantN_
36.70365922I1710_Jordan_PPNB_9580_ybp
36.99612818JK2911_Egypt_Late_Period_2449_ybp
37.00179860I1707_Jordan_PPNB_9582_ybp
37.7827473946_Lebanon_Canaanite_MBA.SG_3750_ybp
38.54688185I1704_Jordan_PPNB_9202_ybp
38.93668579jk2911_Egypt_769_560_BC_2_
39.14742903I1730_Jordan_EBA_4344_ybp
40.30247511I1705_Jordan_EBA_4032_ybp
41.28234611I1706_Jordan_EBA_4345_ybp
42.52424838Natufian_merged_M041601_
47.67782189I1072_Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian_12750_ybp
47.687460623DT16_England_Roman.SG_1750_ybp
51.58530702iam_5_N_Africa_5199_5176y_old_
 
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