Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Phenotype does not necessarily imply Northern European ancestry. A case and point is that many Ashkenazi Jews can actually pass decently as Europeans and even NW Europeans, yet plot by Sicilians. 9/10 times I could pick an Ashkenazi from a group of Sicilians, but not so in Europe. I'm paler than most non-ginger Englishmen, yet plot like a typical Ashkenazi Jew - right by the basically MENA looking Sicilians. Am I a figment of the imagination of your typical Nordicist?

So how do you explain the blonde hair and blue eyes of this individual?

And the fact that the Mycenaean samples were more Northern-shifted than the previous inhabitants?

What about the Corded Ware-like individuals that have been found in Greece?

And even if the origin of ancient Greek blondism isn't from a Corded source, what about the blonde EEF samples, and the light-featured Chalcolithic Levantines? The red-haired, pale-skinned, blue-eyed Chalcolithic Armenians?

I think YOU need to get a grip, mate.

There were blond Greeks much like today - no explanation needed. No CW-like individuals have been found in Greece.
 
There were blond Greeks much like today - no explanation needed. No CW-like individuals have been found in Greece.

I was in Greece very recently and did not see a single blonde. What broadly Nordid features (basically, light pigmentation) I did see were pretty much always of the Osteuropid type, with the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

Also, check here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-corded-ware-related-proto-greek-from.html

Care to address the rest of my points? Or not...
 
I was in Greece very recently and did not see a single blonde. What broadly Nordid features (basically, light pigmentation) I did see were pretty much always of the Osteuropid type, with the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

Also, check here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-corded-ware-related-proto-greek-from.html

Care to address the rest of my points? Or not...

I'm sorry Dr. Eugenics, but you really didn't make any points that I could address. It seems your knowledge of Ancient Greece comes from youtube videos, so it's very difficult to have a proper discussion. If you want to provide actual sources to support your claims I'll try to address them.

I wasn't aware of this sample and it's certainly very interesting, but it's from the Neolithic so I think the chance that this has something to do with Greek is rather slim.
 
the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

Armenoid type (or whatever is) is older than any formation of the Ashkenazim ethnos.

You can call it Ashkenazid because you're in a forum due to freedom of speech, but Ashkenazid is a pointless name with no scientific basis.
 
There are opinions and there are opinions. Opinions unsupported by scientific data and coming from noxious agendas like Nordicism are valueless.

When they are designed to provoke they are subject to the granting of infractions. Then there is the fact that if they are unsupported by scientific evidence pointed out by other posters and the same claims continue to be made, they are spam.

We have been very tolerant toward this poster and his almost always ridiculous claims. Now he is stepping over the line and has been warned. The decision to continue is his, but there will be consequences if he does.

For the record, the Mycenaeans have been tested, as Markod pointed out. They were not blonde and blue-eyed. Might there have been some blonde and blue eyed people among them or among classical Greeks? Absolutely. Was that the primary phenotype? Clearly not.

Pigmentation genes are carried on the autosomes, not the yDna. There were blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned people in ancient Neolithic Anatolia and the Chalcolithic Levant. There wasn't an R1b one in the lot. There was, to our knowledge, NO R1B in the Neolithic Near East at the time that these samples were found. END OF STORY.

Stop spamming nonsense.
 
PH155 is almost 0% in Balkans as well as the rest of Europe!
The basal form R-PH155* appears to be extinct. However, living males carrying subclades of R-PH155 have been found in Bahrain, Bhutan, Ladakh, Tajikistan, Turkey, Xinjiang, and Yunnan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b#R1b1b_(R-PH155)


Maybe he was an anomaly? We have to wait for the official paper.

You 're right in some way - yes statistically it appears very offside in Europe even concerning dates (about 17000 BC, TMRCA about 5200 BC - so an outsider? Or concerning time the depth of analysis made they did not find other downstream SNP's? ATW if there is no error he was surely a stranger in Epirus. It's the geographic proximity of some of the downstream SNPs bearers of today which make me to say it was not "anormal". Because even before planes, people were travelling far and fast!
 
Here again pigmentation:
shortly:
- Askhenazes, if they show in some countries some not too rare light pigmented persons, are still among the darkest pops in Europe; let's avoid to take some appreciable but light percentages as a rule for a pop - that said, this statement of mine doesn't say nothing about the allover physical constitution of the Askhenaze pop of Europe. Today Greeks are dark very often, but less than people of Cyprus or of Sardinia or of Portugal, for what it's worth -
on another side, I think auDNA admixture and plottings don't say everything to us and even if they show some closeness of far ancestry between pop's they don't show us how, where and when they acquired it - it has already be said here and there more than a time, I think - but pigmentation mutation was not at first linked to the allover genome of pop's or to their Y-haplo's, if it seems it became statistically linked in some pop's, following surely some natural selection linked to geography - depigmentztion in North and Northeastern Europe reached high levels but this evolution concerned previously mixed pop's and so we can say Northern pop's are as well predominantly depigmented HG's and EEF.
on another side again, wherever was born the mutated genes in cause, we can say that the today sketche of Europe countries pigmentation seems very dependant on historical pop's moves (after former selection), and not only the result of hazard or local subclimates, what don't exclude some depigmented familial lineages autochtonous in Southeastern Europe or Anatolia. Nothing 100%.
ATW I don't see the relevance of this unique element of phenotypical aspect in the current thread, spite I like old physical anthropology.
 
You 're right in some way - yes statistically it appears very offside in Europe even concerning dates (about 17000 BC, TMRCA about 5200 BC - so an outsider? Or concerning time the depth of analysis made they did not find other downstream SNP's? ATW if there is no error he was surely a stranger in Epirus. It's the geographic proximity of some of the downstream SNPs bearers of today which make me to say it was not "anormal". Because even before planes, people were travelling far and fast!
When I said anomaly I meant a-typical similar to this:
dca6c5d3a5e836f0998781e8612ccd31.jpg
 
When I said anomaly I meant a-typical similar to this:
dca6c5d3a5e836f0998781e8612ccd31.jpg

Abnormal by his physical phenotype? But why would he have this african-european 'mulatto' aspect? (if it's what your are meaning): the current distribution would point rather to 'caucasian' or 'caucasoid-(veddoid-)mongoloid' influences (surely not "pure" types as you can guess), not pointing to an 'subsaharian' influenced one, at first sight.
surely the first Y-R1b people were not exactly what we can figure out when looking at today Europeans, but even if he bore an old SNP without downstream SNPs a man at those time in Greece was not looking like one of the first R1b bearers...
 
The Helots in the Peloponnese were probably the original population with the minimal R1a proto-Greeks lording it over them which would possibly explain how the older language disappeared over time and the proto-Greek assimilated many pre-Greek words like Thalassa.
 
Here is a statistical work about the population of today Crete.

from 1990's original Cretan origin families mentioned for centuries.
offcourse as long as can be traced.

it is in Greek,
use translator copy/paste.
or ask if you want a translation.

https://www.zarpanews.gr/apo-poy-katagontai-oi-kritikoi/

for the record,
the most significant marks

Crete has higher blue eye population comparing with Greece reaching 6.7% to men and 3.1% to women
highest peak at Ανωπολη Anopoli with 16% of local pop.

Cretans after all mediterrenean populations connect, when compared with Black sea, are closer to Kuban river Adigei and Abkhazian Garga.
The Arab remnant in Crete, the Saracenoi, from the great Arab invasions and attacks seems to be from Spain's Kordoba origin, not from Arabia.
The Venician admixture part is mostly obvious by surnames, not easily recogned.

the North African admixture is about 0.2-2.4%

All the above is after a 1990's statistical work on native population with long existance in island.
 
The Helots in the Peloponnese were probably the original population with the minimal R1a proto-Greeks lording it over them which would possibly explain how the older language disappeared over time and the proto-Greek assimilated many pre-Greek words like Thalassa.

None of the recent samples cluster outside of the Mycenean's range. With plenty of J.
 
None of the recent samples cluster outside of the Mycenean's range. With plenty of J.

You do agree though surely that there should be Z2103 in there somewhere right? So I'd wait until we find it to claim that they were one homogenous population
 
I fail to see why a population can't be homogeneous while carrying different y lineages. The latter account for 2% of the genome in males.
 
I fail to see why a population can't be homogeneous while carrying different y lineages. The latter account for 2% of the genome in males.

But then you must also fail to see that the chance of Mycenaeans being 100% Y DNA J is slim, which means we need to ask the question: why haven't we seen other lineages (like Z2103) yet? I know you don't though, as you posted about it when the study first came out. And you know I know that about Y DNA, there was no need to mention that.
 
But then you must also fail to see that the chance of Mycenaeans being 100% Y DNA J is slim, which means we need to ask the question: why haven't we seen other lineages (like Z2103) yet? I know you don't though, as you posted about it when the study first came out. And you know I know that about Y DNA, there was no need to mention that.

I wasn't aware that anyone claimed the Mycenaeans were 100% "J", although we haven't seen anything else yet. I think probably some "old" R1b or R1a will show up eventually.

I am constantly amazed at what people on this forum don't know when they so confidently post their speculations. Plus, we have a lot of newbies signing in every day, and don't want them confused. Considering how much misinformation is posted, however, I sometimes feel like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke.
 
I wasn't aware that anyone claimed the Mycenaeans were 100% "J", although we haven't seen anything else yet. I think probably some "old" R1b or R1a will show up eventually.

I am constantly amazed at what people on this forum don't know when they so confidently post their speculations. Plus, we have a lot of newbies signing in every day, and don't want them confused. Considering how much misinformation is posted, however, I sometimes feel like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke.

I think you've misunderstood, probs my fault for not explaining properly - all I meant was that there should be Z2103 in our Mycenaean samples yet we have none yet which is unlikely purely by chance. Same for E-V13 etc.
 
I think you've misunderstood, probs my fault for not explaining properly - all I meant was that there should be Z2103 in our Mycenaean samples yet we have none yet which is unlikely purely by chance. Same for E-V13 etc.

I still don't understand what you're getting at...

Why isn't it chance?
 
I think you've misunderstood, probs my fault for not explaining properly - all I meant was that there should be Z2103 in our Mycenaean samples yet we have none yet which is unlikely purely by chance. Same for E-V13 etc.

They'll only have to test Grave Circle A/B and we'll know what the very elite of the early Greeks look like. Those would've been the first samples I'd have tested to solve the whole IE question. Not sure why no one bothered thus far.

IMHO the place of origin the male lines in the shaft graves point to LPIE in its entirety likely came from.
 
Even if there was some sort of ethnically opposed rulers, they would have had no solid caste and intermingled with others be they low or high.
 

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