Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Angela]

Proto-Slavs were diverse:

1. 3,800 BCE : Dobrovody (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
2. 3,700 BCE : Talianki (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
3. 3,700 BCE : Maydanets (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
4. 3,250 BCE : Kasenovka (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2

Any actual ancient samples in there?

 

[Yetos]

guys
if remember correct an older papper,
and if you know History

Slavic admixture in Greece is 14% total
reaching 24% at North Greece, and peaks >35% at spoted areas, villages

R1a is not clear a Slavic mark, rather a Yamnaa, it can be Thracian also,
maybe some DYS are clear Slavic but you can not describe R1a as a clear pure Slavic mark.
cause prexists the ethnogenesis of Slavic nations
there is also R1a that is connected with Thracians, and Scythians,
the last were considered an outer Iranian tribe,

Slavic admixture is raised not of pure-clear ancestry,
but also from Arbanites and Aromani,
Arbanites share also Slavic ancestry although as nation is not considered Slavic
same some Aromani tribes, specially Megle, who had assimilated Slavic tribes like Antes.

it is not a secret. neither a scary thing,

modern Greeks are not the 'pure' race, neither a healthy sterile DNA,

we had been defeated by Romans, who brought Italians and Gauls etc,
we had been raided by Slavs , and accept to allow them settle in many areas,
we had accepted the decline of East churches christians the times when Islam raise
so you can find also Syrrian Egyptian and Iranian DNA,
Even from Murcia Spain Justinianus brought people

But that does not mean that modern Greeks are not descending from Ancient.
there is still enough % to claim that,

we were under Ottoman epmire for 400 years

Besides if I follow Fallmerayer and some older members here,
GREEKS still make miracles

they keep their nationality during Roman empire and Ottoman empire,
they Hellenised the multiplus Slavs as Fallmarayer claims that all modern Greek are Slavs
and we Hellenised the 'millions' Arbanites, that some Albanian ex-members claimed
that all Greeks were from Albanian origin,

 

[blevins13]

guys
if remember correct an older papper,
and if you know History

Slavic admixture in Greece is 14% total
reaching 24% at North Greece, and peaks >35% at spoted areas, villages

R1a is not clear a Slavic mark, rather a Yamnaa, it can be Thracian also,
maybe some DYS are clear Slavic but you can not describe R1a as a clear pure Slavic mark.
cause prexists the ethnogenesis of Slavic nations
there is also R1a that is connected with Thracians, and Scythians,
the last were considered an outer Iranian tribe,

Slavic admixture is raised not of pure-clear ancestry,
but also from Arbanites and Aromani,
Arbanites share also Slavic ancestry although as nation is not considered Slavic
same some Aromani tribes, specially Megle, who had assimilated Slavic tribes like Antes.

it is not a secret. neither a scary thing,

modern Greeks are not the 'pure' race, neither a healthy sterile DNA,

we had been defeated by Romans, who brought Italians and Gauls etc,
we had been raided by Slavs , and accept to allow them settle in many areas,
we had accepted the decline of East churches christians the times when Islam raise
so you can find also Syrrian Egyptian and Iranian DNA,
Even from Murcia Spain Justinianus brought people

But that does not mean that modern Greeks are not descending from Ancient.
there is still enough % to claim that,

we were under Ottoman epmire for 400 years

Besides if I follow Fallmerayer and some older members here,
GREEKS still make miracles

they keep their nationality during Roman empire and Ottoman empire,
they Hellenised the multiplus Slavs as Fallmarayer claims that all modern Greek are Slavs
and we Hellenised the 'millions' Arbanites, that some Albanian ex-members claimed
that all Greeks were from Albanian origin,

More has to come.....especially if you are or not a Macedonian Original? in FTDNA, I have relation with Albania least 10 Greeks.....so it may be millions by now.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Yetos]

More has to come.....especially if you are or not a Macedonian Original? in FTDNA, I have relation with Albania least 10 Greeks.....so it may be millions by now.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

or the oposite,

you are a Greek and you fear to admit

Hehehehe

so the non existed Greeks
manage to Hellenise millions of Albanians and Slavs

WE GREEKS ARE MAGNIFICENT

only you seems to fear to admit that you are a Greek

 

[LATGAL]

Thessaly: 52.3% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 6.5% WHG, 8.2% CHG/IranNeo, 3.8% Natufian.
Peloponnese: 46.6% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 5% WHG, 11% CHG/IranNeo, 8.2% Natufian.
Macedonia: 48.6% Barcin_N, 30.75% Yamnaya, 3% WHG, 12.2% CHG/IranNeo, 5.4% Natufian.

Minoan: 78% Barcin_N, 18% CHG/IranNeo, 3.2% Natufian.
Mycenean: 68% Barcin_N, 13% Yamnaya, 16% CHG/Iran Neo, 0% Natufian

Thanks a bunch, dude. The results you get here do seem to agree with this general impression I've acquired that Italians are overall a bit more Neolithic, and probably have preserved Bronze Age ancestry a bit more, and mainland Greeks a bit more post-Neolithic Anatolian/Near Eastern and steppe due to continuing contacts in Greece with Anatolia and northeast Europe.

The Macedonian sample seems to get both high Yamnaya and Iran+Natufian stuff. It seems like it might be a majority Macedonian, minority West Anatolian (i.e. post Lausanne refugees who should be close to southern Greece and the islands)/Pontic Greek sample. South Italians got more Iran and Natufian than the rest but I wonder how they'd exactly compare to Greek islanders in their relative Iran vs Natufian amounts. Going by the Sarno et al. paper and some other tests I've seen, I have a feeling Greek islanders should be a bit more Iran and a bit less Natufian on average.

Cypriot might be the modern population most similar to Minoans and Anatolia_BA. Cypriots are more or less intermediate between Minoan and Anatolia_BA in terms of AnatoliaNeo/CHG ancestry and also have an addition of Natufian stuff.

That's my general impression too.

As for R1a and I2a, I do have a feeling the major subclades (the probably Cimmerian/Iranian-related Z93 seems quite insignificant in the Balkans, particularly in Greece) in the Balkans are of "Slavic" (or at least Dark Ages) origin but that map seems to overstate how common they are quite a bit (frankly, I'm not even sure if we have good general representative data on the Y-DNA front in general and various attempts I've seen at averaging them gave 10%+ differences) and you obviously can't correlate it 1:1 to early Slavic ancestry.

 

[blevins13]

or the oposite,

you are a Greek and you fear to admit

Hehehehe

so the non existed Greeks
manage to Hellenise millions of Albanians and Slavs

WE GREEKS ARE MAGNIFICENT

only you seems to fear to admit that you are a Greek

You come to conclusion so fast without evidence or against any evidence, I will wait and see more data before claiming Greek heritage or Macedonian for that matter. There is no point to argue further...


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Angela]

Thanks a bunch, dude. The results you get here do seem to agree with this general impression I've acquired that Italians are overall a bit more Neolithic, and probably have preserved Bronze Age ancestry a bit more, and mainland Greeks a bit more post-Neolithic Anatolian/Near Eastern and steppe due to continuing contacts in Greece with Anatolia and northeast Europe.

The Macedonian sample seems to get both high Yamnaya and Iran+Natufian stuff. It seems like it might be a majority Macedonian, minority West Anatolian (i.e. post Lausanne refugees who should be close to southern Greece and the islands)/Pontic Greek sample. South Italians got more Iran and Natufian than the rest but I wonder how they'd exactly compare to Greek islanders in their relative Iran vs Natufian amounts. Going by the Sarno et al. paper and some other tests I've seen, I have a feeling Greek islanders should be a bit more Iran and a bit less Natufian on average.



That's my general impression too.

As for R1a and I2a, I do have a feeling the major subclades (the probably Cimmerian/Iranian-related Z93 seems quite insignificant in the Balkans, particularly in Greece) in the Balkans are of "Slavic" (or at least Dark Ages) origin but that map seems to overstate how common they are quite a bit (frankly, I'm not even sure if we have good general representative data on the Y-DNA front in general and various attempts I've seen at averaging them gave 10%+ differences) and you obviously can't correlate it 1:1 to early Slavic ancestry.

Even if I accepted these as the be all and end all, which I don't, you can't generalize this way about "Italians".

Bergamo (Northern Italy) has more Neolithic, but it also has the same amount of steppe, more WHG, less Natufian, and much less Iran Neo/Chl than any mainland Greek result. Thessaly has more Neolithic than southern Italians.

Tuscany also has more WHG on this than do the Greeks, which I don't remember seeing in any academic results from the Reich lab, for instance. It has the same Natufian as Thessaly and less than the other mainland Greeks. Someone want to tell me how this would show, for example, a horde of Levantines arriving in Tuscany post Bronze Age? For all the "Etruscans from Iron Age Anatolia" who supposedly replaced all the locals, Tuscans also have, according to this analysis, less Iran Neo/Chl than any mainland Greek sample.

Also, why not keep the samples equal, i.e. Barcin for both sets, or Anatolian Neolithic for both. Barcin, for anyone who has forgotten, is an Anatolian Neolithic sample.

Greek results:
Thessaly: 52.3% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 6.5% WHG, 8.2% CHG/IranNeo, 3.8% Natufian.
Peloponnese: 46.6% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 5% WHG, 11% CHG/IranNeo, 8.2% Natufian.
Macedonia: 48.6% Barcin_N, 30.75% Yamnaya, 3% WHG, 12.2% CHG/IranNeo, 5.4% Natufian.


Italian results:
Bergomo: 29% Yamnaya, 58% Anatolia_Neolithic, 10% WHG, 2% CHG/IranNeo, 0.5% Natufian.
Tuscany: 23% Yamnaya, 53% Anatolia_Neolithic, 8% WHG, 7% CHG/IranNeo, 4% Natufian.
South Italy: 13% Yamnaya, 49% Anatolia_Neolithic, 7% WHG, 17% CHG/IranNeo, 15% Natufian.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Like I said, it all depends what populations you feed into it. Plus, none of these are proximate populations. We need a little patience, people.

I agree with that but very real trends are appearing.

 

[I1a3_Young]

No Anthrogenica is next. They are racist pigs with an agenda. They banned me then they spread rumours about me that I'm " mentally ill " . I'm not. ****** assholes.

I highly doubt Anthrogenica gets banned.

 

[Fluffy]

I highly doubt Anthrogenica gets banned.

Yeah your probably right. Still they have been spreading false rumours about me. I'm not mentally ill or unstable. They have no right to say stuff about me like that just because I'm banned. First of all I'm not mentally ill. Second of all even if I was that's discrimination. Millions of people are. It's not a laughing matter, and they should be ashamed of themselves for insulting not only me but millions living with a mental illness.

 

[davef]

Polish/Indo European Greeks, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Romans, Hebrews, Chinese, Aztecs, and Persians

 

[Fire Haired14]

I highly doubt Anthrogenica gets banned.

It won't. Anthrogencia is the complete opposite of those sites. They're politically correct to fault. And also snobby.

 

[Fluffy]

It won't. Anthrogencia is the complete opposite of those sites. They're politically correct to fault. And also snobby.

There are snobby. And they have no sense of humour. They ban people unfairly aswell.

 

[Pratt]

I used David's PCA to get them. When Italians are modelled with WHG, Yamnaya, Anatolia_N, Natufian, CHG/IranN in isolation the scores always get whacky (eg, 20% WHG, 2% Yamnaya). To dodge this problem I modelled Italians with groups who have varying amounts of ancestry from each ancestor: Baalberg_MN, Iceman_MN, Minoan, Anatolia_BA, Levant_BA, and Yamnaya. Next, I got the WHG, Natufian, Anatolia_N, Iran_N/CHG scores for each of those proposed ancestors. Then I multiplied their ancestor's scores to get Anatolia_N, Yamnaya, WHG, Natufian, and Iran_N/CHG scores for Italians.

Maybe, maybe only Southern Italy has significant Levantine influence, hence their similarity to European Jews.

What does mean Iran_N/CHG? Have you used the CHG or the Iran Neolitich sample? What is Anatolia_N? On David's PCA I see only Anatolia_BA and Anatolia_ChL.

 

[Pratt]

Btw, why did you use Anatolia BA, instead of something like Barcin*, and see what happens, or why Otzi instead of Remedello?

I get why Unetice, although for western Sicily wouldn't Bell Beaker be better, or even for a Tuscan from around Lucca?

There, see, now I'm doing it, but doing it straight.

The closest match to Barcin is Tuscans: .827. It's not bad for East Sicilians, either: .822

See:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/first-look-at-ancient-genome-from.html

ED. One of the usual suspects absolutely doesn't get what you showed here.

I was just replicating David's models.

Now Barcin instead of Anatolia BA, Bell_Beaker instead of Unetice, Remedello instead of Otzi.


Italian_Bergamo

Bell_Beaker_Germany 61.3
Barcin_N 38.7
Remedello_BA 0.0


Italian_Tuscan

Bell_Beaker_Germany 53.8
Barcin_N 46.2
Remedello_BA 0.0

with Otzi doesn't change

Italian_Bergamo

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Bell_Beaker_Germany Iceman_MN Barcin_N
0.03075753 0.03101834 0.04809158


Bell_Beaker_Germany 61.3
Barcin_N 38.7
Iceman_MN 0.0

Italian_Tuscan

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Iceman_MN Bell_Beaker_Germany Barcin_N
0.03292762 0.03864224 0.04420379


Bell_Beaker_Germany 53.8
Barcin_N 46.2
Iceman_MN 0.0

 

[Angela]

I was just replicating David's models.

Now Barcin instead of Anatolia BA, Bell_Beaker instead of Unetice, Remedello instead of Otzi.


Italian_Bergamo

Bell_Beaker_Germany 61.3
Barcin_N 38.7
Remedello_BA 0.0


Italian_Tuscan

Bell_Beaker_Germany 53.8
Barcin_N 46.2
Remedello_BA 0.0

with Otzi doesn't change

Italian_Bergamo

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Bell_Beaker_Germany Iceman_MN Barcin_N
0.03075753 0.03101834 0.04809158


Bell_Beaker_Germany 61.3
Barcin_N 38.7
Iceman_MN 0.0

Italian_Tuscan

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Iceman_MN Bell_Beaker_Germany Barcin_N
0.03292762 0.03864224 0.04420379


Bell_Beaker_Germany 53.8
Barcin_N 46.2
Iceman_MN 0.0

Well, that's certainly different isn't it? The original Anatolia Neolithic farmers, who were basically the same as the first farmers to enter Europe, plus Bell Beaker. I would think using a sample like Stuttgart might be much the same. Using Otzi or Remedello instead of Barcin might be another way to look at it to see what happens.

Thanks for running that, Pratt. I appreciate it.

 

[davef]

Peloponnese: 46.6% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 5% WHG, 11% CHG/IranNeo, 8.2% Natufian.
Macedonia: 48.6% Barcin_N, 30.75% Yamnaya, 3% WHG, 12.2% CHG/IranNeo, 5.4% Natufian

Peloponnese has less Iran, yamnaya, barcin but more Natufian than Macedonia? Who brought these extra natufian and whg genes to the peleponnese ? Anyone have suggestions?

 

[Jovialis]

Ok, here are the most believable scores I've gotten for Italy yet.

Bergomo: 29% Yamnaya, 58% Anatolia_Neolithic, 10% WHG, 2% CHG/IranNeo, 0.5% Natufian.
Tuscany: 23% Yamnaya, 53% Anatolia_Neolithic, 8% WHG, 7% CHG/IranNeo, 4% Natufian.
South Italy: 13% Yamnaya, 49% Anatolia_Neolithic, 7% WHG, 17% CHG/IranNeo, 15% Natufian.

Keep in mind this is what potential Near Eastern ancestors get....
Anatolia_BA: 56% Anatolia_Neolithic, 34% CHG/IranNeo, 10% Natufian.
Minoan: 78% Anatolia_Neolithic, 18% CHG/Iran Neo, 3% Natufian.
Levant_BA: 25% Anatolia_Neolithic, 18% CHG/Iran Neo, 57% Natufian.

I used David's PCA to get them. When Italians are modelled with WHG, Yamnaya, Anatolia_N, Natufian, CHG/IranN in isolation the scores always get whacky (eg, 20% WHG, 2% Yamnaya). To dodge this problem I modelled Italians with groups who have varying amounts of ancestry from each ancestor: Baalberg_MN, Iceman_MN, Minoan, Anatolia_BA, Levant_BA, and Yamnaya. Next, I got the WHG, Natufian, Anatolia_N, Iran_N/CHG scores for each of those proposed ancestors. Then I multiplied their ancestor's scores to get Anatolia_N, Yamnaya, WHG, Natufian, and Iran_N/CHG scores for Italians.

Maybe, maybe only Southern Italy has significant Levantine influence, hence their similarity to European Jews.

Where exactly is this South Italy population coming from?

 

[Angela]

Peloponnese: 46.6% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 5% WHG, 11% CHG/IranNeo, 8.2% Natufian.
Macedonia: 48.6% Barcin_N, 30.75% Yamnaya, 3% WHG, 12.2% CHG/IranNeo, 5.4% Natufian

Peloponnese has less Iran, yamnaya, barcin but more Natufian than Macedonia? Who brought these extra natufian and whg genes to the peleponnese ? Anyone have suggestions?

The differences are actually quite insignificant. There's variation even within one family. Look at the scores in Regio's family. These sorts of things shouldn't be over-analyzed when there's a point or two difference.

And no, there wasn't a Levantine migration to the Peloponnese, nor a big one from Sicily either, a la Sikelliot. More so, since they wouldn't have brought more WHG would they?

@Jovialis,
I sincerely hope it isn't that weird Calabrian one with high fst to everyone in the world.

 

[davef]

The differences are actually quite insignificant. There's variation even within one family. Look at the scores in Regio's family. These sorts of things shouldn't be over-analyzed when there's a point or two difference.

And no, there wasn't a Levantine migration to the Peloponnese, nor a big one from Sicily either, a la Sikelliot. More so, since they wouldn't have brought more WHG would they?

@Jovialis,
I sincerely hope it isn't that weird Calabrian one with high fst to everyone in the world.

Figures. Not to worry, I wasn't suggesting that Middle Easterners and Lobschour dudes raided that area and took wives en masse (or anywhere else in Europe). I expected more Neolithic and Iranian/CHG and couldn't make sense of the heightened natufian and whg on top of that.