Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

I don't have Algerian_Jews, but Moroccan_jews are quite different from minoans in autosomal DNA

Minoans are mostly Anatolian_N with a bit of CHG, as demonstrated by the study of this thread.

Moroccon_Jews are as such:

6B54Hsw.jpg


They are different too, Natufian is very different from CHG as demonstrated by PCA analysis:

sU4ekpj.png


Also there are other exotic admixture in them which make Moroccan_Jews different as well.


sure, but how different is Natufian to CHG or Anatolian_N relative to the distances that exist between CHG/Anatolian_N/WHG/EHG? the Natufian in Jewish people might not pull them as far away from Minoans as the other admxtures that nowadays are present in other populations.
 
sure, but how different is Natufian to CHG or Anatolian_N relative to the distances that exist between CHG/Anatolian_N/WHG/EHG?

Distance to:Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
49.01237089Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

Distance to:Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
75.82553396Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

Distance to:Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
61.35627678Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

Distance to:Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
95.20301938Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

These populations are extremely different from one another.
 
Which possibility?

Oh I just saw the quote.

Yeah I wasn't talking about that. Was asking what Ancient Jews and Phoenician auDNA composition is.

Ancient DNA of Phoenician remains indicates discontinuity in the settlement history of Ibiza
accession numbers: MH43585-43559

It seems the author of this study hasn't yet uploaded the data files. I e-mailed him about it in the past, but thus far no response. I can't tell you personally, but the information is out there.
 
Distance to:Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
49.01237089Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

Distance to:Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
75.82553396Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)

Distance to:Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)
61.35627678Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

Distance to:Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
95.20301938Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

These populations are extremely different from one another.


and isn't this a possible explanation why modern jewish people might be the closest to minoans? populations in europe might be admixed more with EHG/CHG/WHG who btw are all further away from the Minoans main component Anatolia_N, than Natufian is, according to these results.
 
and isn't this a possible explanation why modern jewish people might be the closest to minoans? populations in europe might be admixed more with EHG/CHG/WHG who btw are all further away from the Minoans main component Anatolia_N, than Natufian is, according to these results.

No, I have already demonstrated in the graphic that they have a different autosomal admixture.
 
I find it quite remarkable that Log02 and Log04, two Middle Bronze Age inhabitants from the same settlement do not genetically overlap. This indicates to me that one of the two may be mixed. If we look more closely, then we can notice that Log02 plots half way between Log 04 to the Mycenaeans of the Early Bronze Age. Furthermore, in between we can find the Late Bronze Age sample from Crete (Armenoi) which chronologically is very close to the Iron Age and significantly closer to the Northern Greek samples than the Mycenaens. Crete_Armenoi (I9123) plots somewhere between Log02 and Minoans.

This clearly indicates that there is a migration North to South during the Bronze Age. So there was intermixture in the North of Greece and starting the Middle Bronze Age there was intermixture in the South of Greece and Crete.
EBA.MBA.GR.jpg
 
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there is no modern population that has the same autosomal admixture as minoans.

Indeed, which is why we need to be careful when comparing them to modern populations.

I would say, that they are at least part of the ancestry of some modern populations though. However small it may be.
 
Indeed, which is why we need to be careful when comparing them to modern populations.

why that? we constantly compare populations who have different autosomal profiles. which population do you think is closest to minoans and why? they will also have different "exotic" admixtures that explain their pull away from minoans.

if the distances you posted are correct you probably need way less WHG-admixture for example to be pulled away from minoans the same distance as someone who has natufian admixture.
 
why that? we constantly compare populations who have different autosomal profiles. which population do you think is closest to minoans and why? they will also have different "exotic" admixtures that explain their pull away from minoans.

if the distances you posted are correct you probably need way less WHG-admixture for example to be pulled away from minoans the same distance as someone who has natufian admixture.

You answered your own question in the previous post, of which I agreed with. There is no modern population that has the same admixture rates as Minoans. Also, there is no WHG or Natufian in Minoans, so that point is moot. Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.
 
You answered your own question in the previous post, of which I agreed with. There is no modern population that has the same admixture rates as Minoans. Also, there is no WHG or Natufian in Minoans, so that point is moot. Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.

Help me wrap my head around this.
First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.
 
Help me wrap my head around this.
First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.

The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:

3nEJwlb.jpg



Frankly, it is a bit odd to insist that these African Jewish populations are close to Minoans when:


A: the study dismisses African and Levantine admixture in Minoans. Which are elements that distinguish these Jews from Minoans.


B: Their autosomal admixture is very different as I have shown in previous posts.


C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.

Also, Southern Italians are closer to Mycenaeans, not Minoans.
 
The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:

3nEJwlb.jpg



Frankly, it is a bit odd to insist that these African Jewish populations are close to Minoans when:


A: the study dismisses African and Levantine admixture in Minoans. Which are elements that distinguish these Jews from Minoans.


B: Their autosomal admixture is very different as I have shown in previous posts.


C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.

Also, Southern Italians are closer to Mycenaeans, not Minoans.


A: that isn't needed for similarity

B: as you can see from the distances they are all far away.

C: that is a point. the paper of this thread has a graphic with fst distances for Minoan samples. there modern greeks are closest, followed by italians and then levant.
 
A: that isn't needed for similarity

B: as you can see from the distances they are all far away.

C: that is a point. the paper of this thread has a graphic with fst distances for Minoan samples. there modern greeks are closest, followed by italians and then levant.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? That is what I have been saying.

Also check your attitude, because you are one step away from being thrown out of here. This is your final warning.
 
Help me wrap my head around this.
First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.

ArchetypeOne: As Jovialis noted, people whose ancestors are 100% South of Lazio (Southern Italian mainland and Sicily) are generally closer to Mycenaean Greeks. This is true for me which while is anecdotal evidence, I think my results are in line with what the extant research has shown and other folks here whose ancestors are from Campania, Calabria, Puglia, Basilicata and Sicily. Here are 4 calculators where I used my NAT GENO DNA, which is supposed to be capture ancient DNA history if I remember correctly (they shut down DNA sample collections). While there are differences across the 4 Calculators, all of them are consistent with me being closer to Mycenaeans vs. Minoans.

Dodecad K7

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
3.58104733Mycenaean:I9041
5.59454198Mycenaean:I9033
6.94345735Mycenaean:I9006
11.52864259Mycenaean:I9010
13.83789363Minoan_Lasithi:I0071
14.23595799Minoan_Odigitria:I9130
15.19697009Minoan_Lasithi:I0074
16.87355623Minoan_Odigitria:I9127
16.88117591Minoan_Odigitria:I9129
16.98849905Minoan_Lasithi:I0073
18.23899668Minoan_Lasithi:I9005
19.00771685Minoan_Lasithi:I0070
19.94972180Minoan_Odigitria:I9131
20.09297638Minoan_Odigitria:I9128


Dodecad Global 13

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
8.22581303Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_:I9041
9.21547611Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete_:I9123
11.49940868Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese_:I9033
11.93504085Log02
14.02505258Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_:I9010
15.49826765Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis_:I9006
15.84660216Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2495
17.75115489Kou03
18.12690818Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0071
18.26382490Kou01
18.74373495Pta08
18.88493315Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2499
18.91741261Mik15
19.35323746Log04
20.47262074Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0074
20.99498035Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9130
21.18151317Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2683
21.91315587Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9128
22.07728924Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9131
22.21065285Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I9005
22.25308518Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0073
22.90734380Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9129
23.12924988Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0070
23.15987478Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_:I2937
27.74930990Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9127


Dodecad K12

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
11.04334641I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.72534434I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
11.93793952I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
12.58136320MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02
13.41464871I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
18.20228008I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
18.23089137I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
18.37221544EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15
19.10626599I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
19.20580641MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
20.25517712EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03
20.34000246EBA_Minoan_Petras:pta08
20.88118771I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
20.90179657I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
21.67007845EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01
26.98719511I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
31.95776431I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete


Eurogenes K13

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
9.54838730I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
10.18505768I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
11.29046058Greece_MBA_Log02
14.31854741EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
14.34987108I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
14.91310162I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
15.93369700I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
19.95983216Greece_MBA_Log04
20.14409839I0071_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
20.54011441I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
20.97182157Greece_MBA_Mik15
21.20804093I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp
21.23122465EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
21.26966384Greece_EBA_Pta08
22.38982581I2495_Anatolia_EBA_4377_ybp
23.13734643I0074_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
24.05961554I0073_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
25.74974369I2937_Greece_Peloponnese_N_7359_ybp

 
Thanks for sharing the results Palermo. It seems I remembered you correctly. Just mixed up Myceneans with Minoans. My bad.

Jovialis you answered all my questions. Agree with all of the points.
Just want to make clear I am not insisting that these "African Jewish populations are close to Minoans". Was more of an observation on the calculators, whom as you recall we both criticized earlier in the thread for the same reason you pointed out in the graphical posts. I really don't know why my post is being interpreted that way. Just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

Alichu thanks for pointing out I forgot about that graphic of the paper. The thread is quite old. Must have confused it with some other thread I have been active in recently.

PS: Palermo, it still blows my mind your genetic distance to those Myceneans given the timeframe, everytime I see your calculator results. Truly astounding. I do not even have that close of a distance on most calculators using 1 way calculation to my own modern reference people (IIRC).
 
myQyuKo.png
 
Thanks for sharing the results Palermo. It seems I remembered you correctly. Just mixed up Myceneans with Minoans. My bad.

Jovialis you answered all my questions. Agree with all of the points.
Just want to make clear I am not insisting that these "African Jewish populations are close to Minoans". Was more of an observation on the calculators, whom as you recall we both criticized earlier in the thread for the same reason you pointed out in the graphical posts. I really don't know why my post is being interpreted that way. Just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

Alichu thanks for pointing out I forgot about that graphic of the paper. The thread is quite old. Must have confused it with some other thread I have been active in recently.

PS: Palermo, it still blows my mind your genetic distance to those Myceneans given the timeframe, everytime I see your calculator results. Truly astounding. I do not even have that close of a distance on most calculators using 1 way calculation to my own modern reference people (IIRC).

ArchetypeOne: Your welcome. Those calculators are all in agreement with my MTA results as well. I get deep dive matches for I9041 (Mycenean, 83% closer than matching users), Minoan I0073 (78% closer than matching users), I9006 (Mycenean, 69% closer than other matching users), I0071 (Minoan, 46% closer to other matching users), I0005 (Minoan, 32% closer), , I0074 (Minoan, 23% closer) and I0070 (Minoan, 9% closer). The MTA results below use a combined Ancestry/23Me file which Gedmatch allows you to to. Unfortunately, I can't run my NATGENO through MTA due to formatting of the data that I saved from their site.

Some of those new ancient Greek samples are now at MTA, I get some deep dives with them as well:

Early Helladic Manika Euboa Island Greece, 2827 BC (MIK_wgs) 72% closer than other matching users.

Ancient Petras SIteias Crete, 2735 BC, Pta_08wgs 71% closer.

Early Helladic Manika Euboae Island Greece, 2827 BC MIK_wgs_trimp5bp, 25% closer

With respect to these last 3 samples, I am not sure what the difference is between the 2 MIK_wgs. Did one sample not make it to the paper due to quality control?
 
@ Jovialis. I got an answer looking at the paper. What is your interpretation of this, since the country lines/modern populations are not demarkated.

BaEM2Xd.png


2 Things I take away are:

1. Even North Italians and Albanians seem to be related to a) Myceneans and b) Lasinthi Minoans as much as mainland Greeks, however less than Greek Islanders / Sicilians.

2. Albanians seem to be related to Minoan Odigritia as much as Peloponnese Greeks. Both groups more than Greek Islanders (Marginally more than Crete, substantially more than Cyprus).

Want your thoughts on this analysis. Might be a good checkup for any color blindness I might have.

For better resolution. Even I am not too sure of the colors.

ZuqeBhu.png

FU1GZU5.png

sybfnR8.png


U2YDGXs.png


Notice Canary Islands. LOL
 
@ Jovialis. I got an answer looking at the paper. What is your interpretation of this, since the country lines/modern populations are not demarkated.

BaEM2Xd.png


2 Things I take away are:

1. Even North Italians and Albanians seem to be related to a) Myceneans and b) Lasinthi Minoans as much as mainland Greeks, however less than Greek Islanders / Sicilians.

2. Albanians seem to be related to Minoan Odigritia as much as Peloponnese Greeks. Both groups more than Greek Islanders (Marginally more than Crete, substantially more than Cyprus).

Want your thoughts on this analysis. Might be a good checkup for any color blindness I might have.

For better resolution. Even I am not too sure of the colors.

ZuqeBhu.png

FU1GZU5.png

sybfnR8.png


U2YDGXs.png


Notice Canary Islands. LOL

There's a lot of discussion on this graphic earlier in the thread. Their affinity has to do with overlapping source populations; i.e. levels of Anatolian_N and CHG. There are also issues with that graphic too, notice the south Italian sample is blue, yet we know there is a relatively high affinity compared to the others that are redder.
 

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