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"That's a very optimistic view. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever in the paper that there's even 1% genetic continuity between present-day Greeks and any ancient Greek population, let alone the MBA northern Aegeans." - Davidski
That's some serious delusion. Not even 1%? LMAO. I wonder why he is so salty at Greeks. The name of the post too," beware of Greeks bearing gifts" . That is cringe.
The very paper of this post proves some continuity.
Then this paper "The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706 proves continuity, which he even quoted.
Don't know what to say.
You can make excuses but nothing progressive to prove your case has ever been found since 2017. Maybe you are right but still but there is no evidence yet.Many people on these types of forums keep lauding the Empuries samples as some sort of Gold Standard for "Greekness." I believe these colonists came from Phocaea--which was in Asia Minor for crying out loud. Not to mention the fact the this city had already fallen under Persian rule; not to mention the fact that the native Iberian-type people were already Mycenaean-like.
Many of these anthro-nerds are very quick to label any Greek outside modern Greece as "Hellenized" yet in pretty much the same breath will cite the Empuries. Somehow, given the above, only these "pure ancient Greeks" survived trip and settlement across almost the entire Med unmolested LOL
The northern influence is western, not eastern Balkan (not to say that there was no contact with Thracians). Even today the eastern side of the Balkans is more Med than the western.
And rumors don't count for anything.
Yo, Jovialis. I asked you about the quote. The quote didn't even mention continuity. I am not defending Davidski here. As you should know by now we kind of are backing the same horse(hypothesis) here.
The quote stated Myceneans + Anatolians/Levant imigrants + Slavs.
And it all checks out.
As for the 0 genetic continuity from his other quotes, you can see my response to that in the previous post, aka :facepalm: .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_migrations_to_the_Balkans
Let me know if you want more sources.
PS: 1.22 Million "Orthodox Greeks" came from Anatolia in a single exchange as close to today as 1922. The 400 000 "Turkish Muslims" were mostly Albanians. You do the math 1.2/5.3mln how much dilution that is.
Do you know if by Anatolian migrants he means ancient/pre-turkic conquest Anatolians or the migrants of the population exchange ?
If he means the latter... Probably he doesn't know that the majority of Western Anatolian/Ionian Greeks that were exchanged in 1923 descent from people from all over the Greek speaking world ( mostly from the Aegean Islands and the southern half of the mainland ) that poured there after the 17th century...
I think we can say "some of which cluster with Cypriots" if and only if some do after the paper has been published.The discussion is about classical Greek samples, some of which cluster with Cypriots.
I think we can say "some of which cluster with Cypriots" if and only if some do after the paper has been published.
For now they are just a rumours for a guy who hasn't shown himself to be trustworthy.
I do not need more propaganda in my life.
The discussion is about classical Greek samples, some of which cluster with Cypriots.
There were some Anatolians in Classical Greece, Herodotus himself was half Carian. Depends on which place, for example Classical Age Epirus probably had pratically no post-Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry, while many Aegean Islands did.
Were those Anatolians outliers? If not where they limited to only some regions? Which regions? How populous were those regions? In most eastern shifted regions of Classical Greece were those Anatolian-like profiles 50% or 10%? So many questions. I don't think those can be solved. This is why I dislike heterogenous results.
At this point I feel Greek Academy of Genetics/Anthropology or its equivalent is to blame. I do not bu*y that they do not have ancient samples from LBA/Classical(Iron)/Late Classical/ Early Middle Ages / Middle Ages etc from such a region with rich historical baggage.
One thing I do not agree with Davidski is that we don't even have 1% proof of continuity. Statistically speaking, getting to an autosomal mix similar to modern Greeks without at least 1% (realistically much much more) Ancient local DNA is impossible (0% probability). That's what I find ridiculous. Finding properly mixed ANE/STEPPE/CHG etc populations to go through the generational permutations without some local component I find impossible to believe.
Is the proof enough for proper continuity atm, or to gauge the level of continuity? Not enough to convince everyone aparently. So what would be proof enough? As many in this thread have pointed out we need more samples analyzed across the timeline from the region. The samples are there, or at least they have to be. When the Greek agencies, anthropologists and geneticist make the data available everything will be clear.
And I guarantee you there will be much more than <1% continuity, as Davidski is claiming right now. Thinking otherwise is disingenuous.
I think you are being a little bit hard on Greek academies.
Not many academies have done extensive research on DNA of the inhabitants of the Bronze Age in their region. Where would Greek universities get the funding for these kinds of research post 2010 Greek economic crisis? Not that simple. There were many Greek cities in Albania or Turkey. They could easily extract ancient Greek DNA.
I think you are being a little bit hard on Greek academies.
Not many academies have done extensive research on DNA of the inhabitants of the Bronze Age in their region. Where would Greek universities get the funding for these kinds of research post 2010 Greek economic crisis? Not that simple. There were many Greek cities in Albania or Turkey. They could easily extract ancient Greek DNA.
Not heavily ..
But it is for sure there ( slavic admixture)
Lowest in maniots and geting higher as you go north...
Historically there were slavic tribes in greece
They were not able to change the language completely like in bulgaria with the thracians
But they left genetic mark ...
Let us wait for this paper and see were classical greek samples will be autosomally...
P.s
I do agree with you though that if he claim that is not even 1 % continue with ancient greeks
That is crazy ( i guess i mised that thing)
and he need to woke up and see reality
Yes, that was the point I was making. I think to deny some Slavic ancestry in some Greeks, especially in the north is wrong. But to broadly say Modern Greeks are basically a two-way mix of Slavs and recent-Cypriots, while questioning even 1% of continuity to the ancient past, is just weird, and dubious.
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