Demetrios
Regular Member
- Messages
- 456
- Reaction score
- 118
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Ἀθῆναι
- Ethnic group
- Ἕλλην
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I2a-Y18331 > A2512*
@Kelmendasi
You write, "E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.".
E-CTS1273 being present in Ossetia clearly suggests that it spread from there. It also correlates with the widespread hypothesis that proto-Greek must have come from Catacomb culture, which during 2500 BCE (E-CTS1273's TMRCA) also encompassed Ossetia. If you don't want to call it pre-proto-Greek or even proto-Greek, i really don't have a problem. You may even call it a palaeo-Balkan IE line. My point is that it must have eventually been one of the proto-Greek lines.
CTS1273* hasn't shown up in the Balkans. Unless i am missing something, the only two that have is id:YF15944 from Ossetia and id:ERS1789480, who from a thread that you in fact also participated, another member wrote he is an Ashkenazi Jew. If he is indeed an Ashkenazi Jew that has it, he can very well be a descendant of a Khazar (Jewish) Caucasian. If by Albanian from Eastern Albania you refer to the so-called Skrapar sample, he was not CTS1273*, but E-FT12534 which formed 2600 ybp with a TMRCA of likewise 2600 ybp.
Having the highest diversity in Europe is only natural. Why wouldn't it?
I don't see how it's sister clade, namely E-Y30977, has a clear origin in the Balkans. You are obviously referring to the daughter of E-Y30977, namely E-Y37092 which seems to have reached the Balkans 4100 ybp, namely 500 years after E-Y30977 formed.
You write, "Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.".
Again, please look at the two aforementioned (E-BY3880, E-Y37092) subclades more carefully. They seem to have been part of the proto-Greeks. Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade. Furthermore, the Italian E-BY3880* sample, is from Messina, which was one of the largest Greek colonies in Sicily, and very likely also has Greek origin via its Greek colonists from Chalcis (despite the name the colony wasn't founded by Messenians, and only later acquired it).
As for the E-Y150909a, E-Z17264, and E-PH1173, they indeed seem to have been of Celtic origin, and of non-proto-Greek origin. In any case, as you see i don't have a problem admitting if a subclade appears to not have a proto-Greek origin. After all, they are surely ancient Greek, namely ancient Greeks also inherited them, despite of not having an original proto-Greek origin.
You write, "E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.".
E-CTS1273 being present in Ossetia clearly suggests that it spread from there. It also correlates with the widespread hypothesis that proto-Greek must have come from Catacomb culture, which during 2500 BCE (E-CTS1273's TMRCA) also encompassed Ossetia. If you don't want to call it pre-proto-Greek or even proto-Greek, i really don't have a problem. You may even call it a palaeo-Balkan IE line. My point is that it must have eventually been one of the proto-Greek lines.
CTS1273* hasn't shown up in the Balkans. Unless i am missing something, the only two that have is id:YF15944 from Ossetia and id:ERS1789480, who from a thread that you in fact also participated, another member wrote he is an Ashkenazi Jew. If he is indeed an Ashkenazi Jew that has it, he can very well be a descendant of a Khazar (Jewish) Caucasian. If by Albanian from Eastern Albania you refer to the so-called Skrapar sample, he was not CTS1273*, but E-FT12534 which formed 2600 ybp with a TMRCA of likewise 2600 ybp.
Having the highest diversity in Europe is only natural. Why wouldn't it?
I don't see how it's sister clade, namely E-Y30977, has a clear origin in the Balkans. You are obviously referring to the daughter of E-Y30977, namely E-Y37092 which seems to have reached the Balkans 4100 ybp, namely 500 years after E-Y30977 formed.
You write, "Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.".
Again, please look at the two aforementioned (E-BY3880, E-Y37092) subclades more carefully. They seem to have been part of the proto-Greeks. Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade. Furthermore, the Italian E-BY3880* sample, is from Messina, which was one of the largest Greek colonies in Sicily, and very likely also has Greek origin via its Greek colonists from Chalcis (despite the name the colony wasn't founded by Messenians, and only later acquired it).
As for the E-Y150909a, E-Z17264, and E-PH1173, they indeed seem to have been of Celtic origin, and of non-proto-Greek origin. In any case, as you see i don't have a problem admitting if a subclade appears to not have a proto-Greek origin. After all, they are surely ancient Greek, namely ancient Greeks also inherited them, despite of not having an original proto-Greek origin.