Demetrios
Regular Member
- Messages
- 456
- Reaction score
- 118
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Ἀθῆναι
- Ethnic group
- Ἕλλην
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I2a-Y18331 > A2512*
@Aspurg
You write, "Greek BY3880* is an ethnic Bulgarian and he's Z5018+ at FTDNA in cluster with a Czech.".
How do you know this? Not that it would make any difference in my current view, considering that the Italian E-BY3880* very likely had a Greek origin.
You write, "It seems alot of Greek V13's are LBA/EIA arrivals, so connected with Mycenean collapse. There are some cultures such as Gârla Mare from SW Romania that according to some Russian archaeologists was proto-Dorian, and certain clades under E-Y3183 seem to fit that pattern, as might L241. And these are also sister clades. Many have connected central European R1b's to Dorians, in particular high percentage in areas of Crete. These belong to R-Y4354 subclade, they have no relation to Bulgarian nor they have any close relation to Ugarak clan from Eastern Herzegovina belonging to this clade. There is also one Romanian from a study who is R-Y4354 and he too is very isolated, but he is from Dolj which is close to Gârla Mare. But it makes no sense phylogenetically that an R1b L51 would speak the Greek language, these were the Urnfield people speaking language related to Celto-Italic who picked up Dorian from someone else, who might have been that? I'm thinking L241 and some clades under it's sister clade Y3183. There is also some presence of L584 in both Greeks and Romania who should be related to Phrygians who in turn are supposed to be related to Greeks.".
It is certain that Dorians were part of the proto-Greeks and not some people who evolved their own version of Greek or even might have adopted it from someone else. At least from a linguistic point of view this is certain, because of the many proto-Greek archaisms that had already been lost to most other dialects of Greek, and because if it was indeed an adoption by some other new migrants, you would at least expect some considerable foreign substrate, in this case Celtic, something which is absent from Doric and ancient Greek in general. This linguistic point might also suggest that the Celtic E-V13s that arrived in Greece during the LBA/EIA period, were most probably not significant initially. I don't know the frequency of them today, but at least during their arrival they must have been few.
PostScript: As you have read i am also supporting the Pontic-Caspian steppe origin of E-CTS1273, and in general i agree with many of the other things you write.
You write, "Greek BY3880* is an ethnic Bulgarian and he's Z5018+ at FTDNA in cluster with a Czech.".
How do you know this? Not that it would make any difference in my current view, considering that the Italian E-BY3880* very likely had a Greek origin.
You write, "It seems alot of Greek V13's are LBA/EIA arrivals, so connected with Mycenean collapse. There are some cultures such as Gârla Mare from SW Romania that according to some Russian archaeologists was proto-Dorian, and certain clades under E-Y3183 seem to fit that pattern, as might L241. And these are also sister clades. Many have connected central European R1b's to Dorians, in particular high percentage in areas of Crete. These belong to R-Y4354 subclade, they have no relation to Bulgarian nor they have any close relation to Ugarak clan from Eastern Herzegovina belonging to this clade. There is also one Romanian from a study who is R-Y4354 and he too is very isolated, but he is from Dolj which is close to Gârla Mare. But it makes no sense phylogenetically that an R1b L51 would speak the Greek language, these were the Urnfield people speaking language related to Celto-Italic who picked up Dorian from someone else, who might have been that? I'm thinking L241 and some clades under it's sister clade Y3183. There is also some presence of L584 in both Greeks and Romania who should be related to Phrygians who in turn are supposed to be related to Greeks.".
It is certain that Dorians were part of the proto-Greeks and not some people who evolved their own version of Greek or even might have adopted it from someone else. At least from a linguistic point of view this is certain, because of the many proto-Greek archaisms that had already been lost to most other dialects of Greek, and because if it was indeed an adoption by some other new migrants, you would at least expect some considerable foreign substrate, in this case Celtic, something which is absent from Doric and ancient Greek in general. This linguistic point might also suggest that the Celtic E-V13s that arrived in Greece during the LBA/EIA period, were most probably not significant initially. I don't know the frequency of them today, but at least during their arrival they must have been few.
PostScript: As you have read i am also supporting the Pontic-Caspian steppe origin of E-CTS1273, and in general i agree with many of the other things you write.