Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Jovialis]

Ok, I was wrong. (after rechecking the PCA). Only half of Mycenaeans are south of Sicilians. But I and he never said that they are closer to Jews than to Sicilians, I said they are closer to Jews than modern Greeks.

Why do you feign ignorance, if not to t-roll?

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718/figures/2

Mycenaeans are close to Greeks of the Peloponnese (and Sicilians). "Closer to Jews" is an empty statement, since the Ashkenazi are a very recently eastern European-mixed group of Jewish people. There are Ashkenazi Jews that overlap directly and "north" of Albanians. There's a lot of radically different genetic clusters of Jewish people (Like any other religion!). For what it's worth, Jewish people of the Bronze age are closest to the Yemenite Jews.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nat...&tracking_referrer=blogs.discovermagazine.com

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9/figures/3

 

[ihype02]

Why do you feign ignorance, if not to t-roll?

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718/figures/2

Mycenaeans are close to Greeks of the Peloponnese (and Sicilians). "Closer to Jews" is an empty statement, since the Ashkenazi are a very recently eastern European-mixed group of Jewish people. There are Ashkenazi Jews that overlap directly and "north" of Albanians. There's a lot of radically different genetic clusters of Jewish people (Like any other religion!). For what it's worth, Jewish people of the Bronze age are closest to the Yemenite Jews.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nat...&tracking_referrer=blogs.discovermagazine.com

I was talking about Ashkenazi Jews only. Mainland Greeks, at least, the northern ones are closer to central Italians than they are to southern Italians.

I believe that Ashkanazi Jews are 50 to 60% European. But I don't believe that they are descended from Mycenaeans. Do you believe Ashkanazi Jews are largely Mycenaeans?

 

[Jovialis]

Do you believe Ashkanazi Jews are largely Mycenaeans?

No I don't. You seem to have a comprehension problem. If not, I recommend you do not play games.

 

[Angela]

Ok, I was wrong. (after rechecking the PCA). Only half of Mycenaeans are south of Sicilians. But I and he never said that they are closer to Jews than to Sicilians, I said they are closer to Jews than modern Greeks.

That isn't the graphic you posted and to which you were referring. You don't get to willy nilly change the context.

In THAT graphic, the Mycenaeans are closer to the Near East than are Sicilians. Does that mean that Jews are descended from Mycenaeans? NO, IT DOESN'T.

If you and others are going to post PCAs, PLEASE look them up and figure out how to INTERPRET them. The fact that two groups plot near each other on a two dimensional plot DOESN'T NECESSARILY mean that they descend from one another. If that were the case, how would you explain the fact that the child of a Chinese person and an English person plots in Central Asia? Do you get it?

Plotting near one another on a PCA plot means you are a similar mix of very ancestral components. It doesn't NECESSARILY tell you about more recent mixes.

For those kinds of inferences you have to look at other statistical measures, which the authors of the paper explored. In terms of this perennial fascination with Jews, I don't understand these thousands upon thousands of posts and speculation when we really can't get a grip on it until we have some Classical Era samples from the Near East. Some people seem to have no life and can therefore spend all day every day on idle speculation.

Most importantly, you are now spamming. EVERYONE ACKNOWLEDGES, including the AUTHORS of the paper, that there was post Mycenaean Era admixture of more "northern" alleles, so your question was asked and answered.

MOVE ON.

 

[markod]

R1b might be upsent in Greek world, and might also upsent in the whole IE anatolian world.
there is a lot of discuss about it.
there was a rumor about it, as found in Neolithic, but nothing.
but until now no evidence of any kind of R1b,
R1b might be Roman era import.
yet enough modern Greeks have R1b,

in fact R1b except Hettites,
could be missing not only from IE Greeks but in the whole South Balkan peninsula, and in early Anatolian IE speakers,

This presentation has some Y-DNA and mtDNA haplotypes from an upcoming paper about Greece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0

There's an R1b from Classical Antiquity in Epirus, but it's the exclusively Asian R1b-PH155. So very far from the European variety.

 

[Angela]

This presentation has some Y-DNA and mtDNA haplotypes from an upcoming paper about Greece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0

There's an R1b from Classical Antiquity in Epirus, but it's the exclusively Asian R1b-PH155. So very far from the European variety.

From the phenotype data, blonde and blue eyed? (phenotype section of the clip).

Well, if the "Asian" variety reached "Asia" from the steppe via the Balkans, couldn't it have been deposited then? Or is this the wrong sub-lineage?

 

[ihype02]

If you and others are going to post PCAs, PLEASE look them up and figure out how to INTERPRET them. The fact that two groups plot near each other on a two dimensional plot DOESN'T NECESSARILY mean that they descend from one another. If that were the case, how would you explain the fact that the child of a Chinese person and an English person plots in Central Asia? Do you get it?

Hmm that is interesting. I have always suspected that it works that way, even though I did know it for sure.

 

[markod]

From the phenotype data, blonde and blue eyed? (phenotype section of the clip).

Well, if the "Asian" variety reached "Asia" from the steppe via the Balkans, couldn't it have been deposited then? Or is this the wrong sub-lineage?

It branched off before Villabruna so it's really far removed from the R1b that would have been spread with the Bronze Age expansions. It is sometimes found in Central Asia and in Armenia & the Arabian peninsula.

I think the blond & blue-eyed sample is the one with R1b although it's a bit difficult to see.

 

[Yetos]

This presentation has some Y-DNA and mtDNA haplotypes from an upcoming paper about Greece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0

There's an R1b from Classical Antiquity in Epirus, but it's the exclusively Asian R1b-PH155. So very far from the European variety.

classical antiquity is very very near today.
and is known era, at least very well historically knowledge,

 

[ihype02]

This presentation has some Y-DNA and mtDNA haplotypes from an upcoming paper about Greece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKZKoH4yv0

There's an R1b from Classical Antiquity in Epirus, but it's the exclusively Asian R1b-PH155. So very far from the European variety.

PH155 is almost 0% in Balkans as well as the rest of Europe!
The basal form R-PH155* appears to be extinct. However, living males carrying subclades of R-PH155 have been found in Bahrain, Bhutan, Ladakh, Tajikistan, Turkey, Xinjiang, and Yunnan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b#R1b1b_(R-PH155)

Maybe he was an anomaly? We have to wait for the official paper.

 

[ihype02]

.......................

 

[MOESAN]

R1b PH155 an anomaly in ancient Greece? Why?
Perhaps a man whose ancestors came from Near-East across Anatolia, if I rely on current distribution of the descendants. Or I miss something?

 

[Angela]

R1b PH155 an anomaly in ancient Greece? Why?
Perhaps a man whose ancestors came from Near-East across Anatolia, if I rely on current distribution of the descendants. Or I miss something?

I don't see why it's so strange either.

Does anyone have a recent breakdown of R1b by clade in Greece? I know there's some U-152, but I thought there was more upstream R1b, although not that particular clade.

 

[ihype02]

R1b PH155 an anomaly in ancient Greece? Why?
Perhaps a man whose ancestors came from Near-East across Anatolia, if I rely on current distribution of the descendants. Or I miss something?

There is NO MARK of it (PH155) in Europe.

 

[ihype02]

I don't see why it's so strange either.

Does anyone have a recent breakdown of R1b by clade in Greece? I know there's some U-152, but I thought there was more upstream R1b, although not that particular clade.

Greeks / Cretans
R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %
No PH155.

 

[Angela]

Greeks / Cretans
R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %
No PH155.

Thanks. If the first Mycenaeans were R1b, that's what they would be in my opinion.

 

[ihype02]

Mycenaeans probably did carry L23. Seeing J2a and G2. R1b-L23 seems a good assumption based on the Anatolian connection.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

It branched off before Villabruna so it's really far removed from the R1b that would have been spread with the Bronze Age expansions. It is sometimes found in Central Asia and in Armenia & the Arabian peninsula.

I think the blond & blue-eyed sample is the one with R1b although it's a bit difficult to see.

It was the R1b guy, he shares the same ID.

People would have called me (and many others like me) a Nordicist for making claims like this (about the blonde (and in other cases red) hair and blue eyes), and I am by no means visionary - the ancient literature and surviving evidence is clear enough. The only thing that could stop someone from coming to the conclusion of elite, warmongering (but not necessarily - and imo not likely - sophisticated) Nordid types, at least in known Indo-European territory, is cognitive dissonance at its finest. Same goes for the early Latins, for example. They didn't look like Pavarotti, nor did they share the same appreciation for culture.

These two videos, for what they are at least, agree with the point of the warlike yet unsophisticated Nordid rulers appropriating and invigorating pre-Greco-Roman Med. culture - super high production quality too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFRxmi4uCGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ZXl-V4qwY

Hopefully the Greeks won't censor further publications like this - I doubt they will, unlike the Egyptians (but that is an entirely more mysterious affair, though Ramses II is clear enough too). Concerning Alexander the Great's father, Philip II - that's going to be extremely touchy if the DNA is still intact, especially considering contemporary descriptions of Alexander.

 

[markod]

It was the R1b guy, he shares the same ID.

People would have called me (and many others like me) a Nordicist for making claims like this (about the blonde (and in other cases red) hair and blue eyes), and I am by no means visionary - the ancient literature and surviving evidence is clear enough. The only thing that could stop someone from coming to the conclusion of elite, warmongering (but not necessarily - and imo not likely - sophisticated) Nordid types, at least in known Indo-European territory, is cognitive dissonance at its finest. Same goes for the early Latins, for example. They didn't look like Pavarotti, nor did they share the same appreciation for culture.

These two videos, for what they are at least, agree with the point of the warlike yet unsophisticated Nordid rulers appropriating and invigorating pre-Greco-Roman Med. culture - super high production quality too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFRxmi4uCGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ZXl-V4qwY

Hopefully the Greeks won't censor further publications like this - I doubt they will, unlike the Egyptians (but that is an entirely more mysterious affair, though Ramses II is clear enough too). Concerning Alexander the Great's father, Philip II - that's going to be extremely touchy if the DNA is still intact, especially considering contemporary descriptions of Alexander.

Get a grip. We have DNA from the Mycenaean Greeks - genetically they were more southern than the contemporary inhabitants. Even Central Europe was inhabited by some conspicuously southern populations until recently.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Get a grip. We have DNA from the Mycenaean Greeks - genetically they were more southern than the contemporary inhabitants. Even Central Europe was inhabited by some conspicuously southern populations until recently.

Phenotype does not necessarily imply Northern European ancestry. A case and point is that many Ashkenazi Jews can actually pass decently as Europeans and even NW Europeans, yet plot by Sicilians. 9/10 times I could pick an Ashkenazi from a group of Sicilians, but not so in Europe. I'm paler than most non-ginger Englishmen, yet plot like a typical Ashkenazi Jew - right by the basically MENA looking Sicilians. Am I a figment of the imagination of your typical Nordicist?

So how do you explain the blonde hair and blue eyes of this individual?

And the fact that the Mycenaean samples were more Northern-shifted than the previous inhabitants?

What about the Corded Ware-like individuals that have been found in Greece?

And even if the origin of ancient Greek blondism isn't from a Corded source, what about the blonde EEF samples, and the light-featured Chalcolithic Levantines? The red-haired, pale-skinned, blue-eyed Chalcolithic Armenians?

I think YOU need to get a grip, mate.