Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[cybernautic]

Does this article also prove the "Dorian Invasion" in a sense?

Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.


Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.

Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology

Hellen was a son of Deukalion who was a Pelasgian according to ancient Greek tradition.


Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.

 

[Sile]

Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.
Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.
Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology
Hellen was a son of Deukalion who was a Pelasgian according to ancient Greek tradition.
Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.

How disapproved ?
Clearly the Dorians lived on the adriatic coast somewhere, how else did they have a navy to conquer crete, rhodes and other greek islands from the myceneans.
my guess would be natural forested lands like modern Montenegro and south dalmatia for the timber. we are talking about bronze-age

 

[Johane Derite]

Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.


Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.

Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology

Hellen was a son of Deukalion who was a Pelasgian according to ancient Greek tradition.


Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.

If there was no Dorian invasion then there aree massive repercussions for how we understand the recent history of the greek state since its independance. The UK which greatly aided greece in its independance based a lot of its aid on German theories of the time. Dorian invasion was highly influential in how they thought of the region. For example:

Now, removed from time its quite clear there is something strange, maybe even propagandistic happening in this article, no?

Another example:

This is from a book on sale at Sothebys auctions. What striked me as quite strange was that this drawing was cropped unlike everyother drawing in the book. The part that was cropped was the description of the subject. For example one says greek man one says arcadian etc. I found another version of the book scanned online where the description is not cropped though and it says clearly Officier Albanais.

If the Dorian invasion theory and many other theories turn out to be wrong then this will be truly embarrassing as so much politics was based on these theories.

 

[cybernautic]

How disapproved ?
Clearly the Dorians lived on the adriatic coast somewhere,

Any proofs that Dorians lived on the adriatic coast first and came from there to Greece?

how else did they have a navy to conquer crete, rhodes and other greek islands from the myceneans.

And you think Greeks in Mainland Greece and the Aegean didn't have a navy?

The strongest Naval force in the ancient Greek Mainland were Athenians by the way who
were Ionians.

Ever heard about the Delian leage?

my guess would be natural forested lands like modern Montenegro and south dalmatia for the timber. we are talking about bronze-age

My guess is not!

At best Dorians or Mycanaeans moved from Greece to these regions at the Adriatic coast and
settled there.

Archeologists have found Mycanaean settlements in Croatia for example

In fact Ancient Greeks colonized and settled along all the Adriatic coast ,in Italy
and even the coast of Southern France.


Your argumentation is weak.

I'm entitled to disagree with you without remorse of conscience unless you bring forward something
much stronger than that

 

[Pygmalion]

How disapproved ?
Clearly the Dorians lived on the adriatic coast somewhere, how else did they have a navy to conquer crete, rhodes and other greek islands from the myceneans.
my guess would be natural forested lands like modern Montenegro and south dalmatia for the timber. we are talking about bronze-age

The Dorian invasion theory is not supported by archaeology, it's an outdated theory, there is no evidence of an "Adriatic" or Balkan invasion of Greece during the late bronze age, there was however a Balkan movement towards Anatolia, for example at Troy where Balkan pottery is widespread after the destruction, which I think could be associated with the Phrygian colonization and conquest of part of Anatolia..

 

[LATGAL]

Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.

This is an old post and all and a "Dorian invasion" might not even be particularly detectible but the idea that it has been "tested and disproven" somehow is not quite true. I'm not sure where you got it but until we have more ancient data...

The Dorian invasion theory is not supported by archaeology, it's an outdated theory, there is no evidence of an "Adriatic" or Balkan invasion of Greece during the late bronze age, there was however a Balkan movement towards Anatolia, for example at Troy where Balkan pottery is widespread after the destruction, which I think could be associated with the Phrygian colonization and conquest of part of Anatolia..

Yes, the most likely theory in my view is that they basically lived in relatively close contact with the Mycenaean world, northwest of it. Why do you think a Balkan invasion (with some potential ties even further north) of sorts is out of the question for the LBA though? We have findings of likely Central European, Carpathian or Balkan inspiration though some like new sword types are probably due to trade/cultural diffusion. Similarly with Troy which as you said has Balkan parallels in its pottery. At the same time like you mention various populations like the ones we later know as Phrygians, Illyrians and others seem to be moving generally more southerly and easterly.

 

[Pygmalion]

@LATGAL The sword types were the closest to the Naue II Italian sword types, which were in turn based on the Danubian ones, and Reinhard Jung explains it pretty well in his latest papers, so the connection between Mycenaean Naue II and the Danubian ones is not direct. Also the Aegean yielded far more South Italian pottery than Balkan pottery, and no one talks about a proto Italic invasion of Greece, so the theory that the Dorians came from far away is to be discarded, also no Balkan like pottery has ever been found in the Levantine coast or at Cyprus which makes it unlikely that Balkan people were part of the sea peoples, unlike Italian pottery that has been found as far as Lebanon.

 

[ihype02]

Y dna from page 52 of the supplement:
View attachment 8992

I was searching for this all over the thread and didn't recognize it in the first page. Just 'bumping it up' in case it would help someone else like me.

 

[Sile]

Any proofs that Dorians lived on the adriatic coast first and came from there to Greece?
And you think Greeks in Mainland Greece and the Aegean didn't have a navy?
The strongest Naval force in the ancient Greek Mainland were Athenians by the way who
were Ionians.
Ever heard about the Delian leage?
My guess is not!
At best Dorians or Mycanaeans moved from Greece to these regions at the Adriatic coast and
settled there.
Archeologists have found Mycanaean settlements in Croatia for example
In fact Ancient Greeks colonized and settled along all the Adriatic coast ,in Italy
and even the coast of Southern France.
Your argumentation is weak.
I'm entitled to disagree with you without remorse of conscience unless you bring forward something
much stronger than that

The dorians had to have a navy to conquer all the islands, crete, rhodes, santorini etc and the only place to get the timber apart from the north adriatic was the coast of modern montenegro ( black mountains....black because it was heavily infested with forests )
your theory that they conquered greece without a navy is very illogical
.
the dorian fleet was replaced by the Corinthian fleet on that side of Greece ~800BC.............the only way your theory works is if you believe the dorians never existed and I will accept this Greek fable/dreams theory.........the other theory is that it took 200 years for this invasion to occur and the dorians came in from North East of the greeks , most likely a thracian sub-group

 

[Iapetos]

If the Mycenaeans and Minoans were not genetically dissimilar, then what implications does this have for the Indo-European theory with regard to Greece?

 

[MOESAN]

If the Mycenaeans and Minoans were not genetically dissimilar, then what implications does this have for the Indo-European theory with regard to Greece?

I'm not too interested to date, waiting for more samples -
question: have the Mycenians killed all the Minoans? If not, could the assimilation of these last ones have reduced the supposed 'steppe' weight in the Mycenians studied here, 'steppe' element that could have been already reduced beforehand during penetration of the Southeastern Balkans?
I 've no credo here, just try to reasoning; the coming of ancient Greeks through Anatolia is maybe not stupid but who knows to date? Mycenians are still a bit different from Minoans, for I think -
&: our datations are vague and span over long time; it can mistake us sometimes - we have not always the "first juice" of the newcomers. Same problem with Chalco and Bronze of Armenia -

 

[davef]

No mycenaens did not kill off the Minoans, they descend from them with additional steppe.

 

[LeBrok]

No mycenaens did not kill off the Minoans, they descend from them with additional steppe.

Yes, pretty much so. Though we have to keep in mind that Anatolia and Greece with part of Balkans looked identical genetically. Same type of Neolithic Farmer. They were all Minoans like.

 

[MOESAN]

Yes, pretty much so. Though we have to keep in mind that Anatolia and Greece with part of Balkans looked identical genetically. Same type of Neolithic Farmer. They were all Minoans like.

It was just my points: Southeastern Balkans already Chalco-anatolian-like so not Mycenians absorbed into Minoans but maybe Minoans kept among Mycenians; dating the Greek language phonetic evolution could be interesting -BTW -

 

[ihype02]

Archeologists have found Mycanaean settlements in Croatia for example

Where?

----

 

[Salento]

Largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece is at Roca Vecchia - Apulia - Italy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca_(archaeological_site)

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.

Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.

Simple. The Mycenaean upper crust was replaced, but the underlying population was not.

Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.

Other than a trail of destroyed fortresses and burned palaces. Barbarians don't leave many archaeological traces. If you didn't know its history, based on its archaeological remains, you wouldn't think that Sparta was a particularly important place.

 

[Dianatomia]

Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.


Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.

Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology
.

What kind of evidence does Triandafilidis have the Dorians not altering the genetic mainframe of Ancient Greece. We would need post Iron Age and pre-Hellenistic Age genetic material to confirm that. That way, we can mirror it to Bronze Age Greece. So far, there isn't any. And to what extent would the Dorians have changed the genetic make up? Perhaps they only brought some additional genes. Another upper layer, so to speak.

 

[Leandros]

What kind of evidence does Triandafilidis have the Dorians not altering the genetic mainframe of Ancient Greece. We would need post Iron Age and pre-Hellenistic Age genetic material to confirm that. That way, we can mirror it to Bronze Age Greece. So far, there isn't any. And to what extent would the Dorians have changed the genetic make up? Perhaps they only brought some additional genes. Another upper layer, so to speak.

Dorians were a peloponnesian tribe called Heracleides which moved northwards in central Greece, near the lake Doris. Thats why they are called Dorians, due to their starting point was Lake Doris in central Greece. They moved southwards then creating Sparta, and some of them went northwards, creating the kingdom of Macedonia. Both of those were said to be Dorians or Heracleides.

Your dellusions about an invasion of Greece from the North is just that. Delusions.

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

 

[Pygmalion]

archeologists have found Mycanaean settlements in Croatia for example

No, that's false. Mycenaeans only built cities in the Greece and some isles near Anatolia such as Rhodes. We know that during the late bronze age there were also some significant Mycenaean communities in Cyprus, Western Anatolia and probably Cilicia. but they seemed to have lived in local settlements such as Miletus and Kition, Miletus in particular was under Achean control as some Hittite letters suggest. It's also evident from the pottery finds that Mycenaeans visited frequently the Levant and Egypt, but never really settled there until the end of the bronze age with the Philistine migrations where it's clear that there were Aegean peoples involved. As for the west they didn't found any city but they traded often with Southern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, in all these regions Mycenaean pottery was produced locally in some of the local sites, which suggests the presence of Mycenaean artisans working alonside the locals in local communities. In the Adriatic coast there are a few Mycenanean finds but almost exclusively concentrated in the Italian side, while almost none come from the Balkan side, so not only the idea of a Mycenaean city in Croatia is to reject but the idea of Mycenaean individuals present there also seems unlikely given the current finds. Mycenaeans interacted much more with Southern Italy, Sicily and even Sardinia than with the people living in the Western Balkans.