Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Angela]

Arvanites were mostly concentrated in Corinth and Argolis, and they also don't cluster close to Maniots or Tsakones. If anything they cluster close to all other Peloponnesians. And you seem to be losing the point which is prevalent in so many genetic studies, namely that Greeks and Albanians don't seem to differentiate that much autosomally. Therefore i don't know what's your point here.

Second, Shklerishte in Arvanitika simply means someone who speaks a different language. It originates from the word shqa/shkl(j)a which originally meant Bulgarian or Orthodox Slav, and in turn is a cognate of the Greek "Σκλάβος" (Sklábos) meaning Slav, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82, out of which the word stems. The terms were eventually generalized to mean all that speak a different language once Arvanites migrated to the South, hence why it was also applied to Greeks. It was a remnant of when they were surrounded only by Slavs.

I think that takes care of that point.

 

[Angela]

@Demetrios, Kelmandasi,

Yes, that's what I thought. I didn't remember the figures for J1 being all that high in Cyprus. Some late arriving J2 clades might also have carried some Levantine, yes?

As to Demetrios' specific point here:
"[FONT=&quot]Regarding J1, there was also a southwestern Anatolian EBA sample that had it from the study of this thread. Namely one from Isparta, [/FONT]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/[FONT=&quot]. And in addition the study also had the following statement, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]while the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]". I wouldn't find it surprising if some also made its way to Cyprus, it's certain it did."

I've been trying to get this point across to people since I don't know when.

Some of the "Levantine" they find in other groups might have arrived with Anatolians, not just with Arabs or Jews.

I'm thinking of Crete as just one example.

[/FONT]

 

[Angela]

My interpretation isn't based on that sentence though, but the PCA attached to the supplementary figure. Which by the way isn't that different from the case of Peloponnese which also seems to partially overlap. Here i include both PCAs for comparison. Deep Mani which was the most conservative area of Mani also doesn't seem to overlap with anyone. That one single Deep Mani sample at the very other end of the Mani cluster is most probably a migrant from East Tayetos to Deep Mani.
View attachment 11610
View attachment 11611

Yes, I'm familiar with that graphic.

I remember combing the data in the paper and supplement over and over again trying to get a handle on what "Italian" in the context of the paper means for the authors. It seems and seemed to me that it changed its meaning as to whom it includes depending on the particular graphic or paragraph, but they never clarify it. That's what I meant when I said that it wasn't very clearly or well written. We talked a lot about it in the early parts of the thread.

Yes, the Mani icon just barely misses the "Italian" icon, but is that the Tuscans? If it is, then the Mani icon would be right over where the Southern Italians might plot. Plus, there really is almost no difference between certain Sicilians and certain Calabresi, for example.

Even ignoring that, the graphic supports the conclusion reached by the authors that the Mani aren't very similar to anyone with, the exception of the Sicilians. Even in that case it's only some of the Mani. I would add some similarity to a few people in East Tay. Only one sample, but still.

I don't think their distance from everyone is all that unusual considering their isolation.

I don't think that means we can't draw some conclusions, however. Sardegna also plots far away from everyone else because of drift, but we can and do study them, and draw a lot of conclusions from them. The Ogliastra region is even more isolated, with less influence from the outside world, but it still tells us a lot about Copper Age/early Bronze Age unadmixed "Old Europe". It's just that conclusions have to be cautious ones.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

[LABERIA]

Arvanites were mostly concentrated in Corinth and Argolis, and they also don't cluster close to Maniots or Tsakones. If anything they cluster close to all other Peloponnesians. And you seem to be losing the point which is prevalent in so many genetic studies, namely that Greeks and Albanians don't seem to differentiate that much autosomally. Therefore i don't know what's your point here.

Second, Shklerishte in Arvanitika simply means someone who speaks a different language. It originates from the word shqa/shkl(j)a which originally meant Bulgarian or Orthodox Slav, and in turn is a cognate of the Greek "Σκλάβος" (Sklábos) meaning Slav, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%82, out of which the word stems. The terms were eventually generalized to mean all that speak a different language once Arvanites migrated to the South, hence why it was also applied to Greeks. It was a remnant of when they were surrounded only by Slavs.

Never heard about Bardhuniotes for example? It seems that with the arrival of the Albanians the Mellingi and the Ezeritae have disappeared.

 

[Demetrios]

@Demetrios, Kelmandasi,

Yes, that's what I thought. I didn't remember the figures for J1 being all that high in Cyprus. Some late arriving J2 clades might also have carried some Levantine, yes?

As to Demetrios' specific point here:
"Regarding J1, there was also a southwestern Anatolian EBA sample that had it from the study of this thread. Namely one from Isparta, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/. And in addition the study also had the following statement, "while the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.". I wouldn't find it surprising if some also made its way to Cyprus, it's certain it did."

I've been trying to get this point across to people since I don't know when.

Some of the "Levantine" they find in other groups might have arrived with Anatolians, not just with Arabs or Jews.

I'm thinking of Crete as just one example.

Regarding J2, yeah, it's also certain that some J2 belonging to Phoenicians for example, certainly also carried Levantine ancestry when they colonized south of Cyprus. Some, not much i gather, also could have come during the Ottoman era. Take note that Cyprus was also under Assyrian rule for a relatively short period of time, namely during the 7th century BCE, although they were essentially called in by the Greek rulers of the island, in fear of the Neo-Assyrian Empire's power which had just attacked and beaten Babylonia, therefore even in that case it shouldn't have been much if any.

 

[Demetrios]

Never heard about Bardhuniotes for example? It seems that with the arrival of the Albanians the Mellingi and the Ezeritae have disappeared.

Barduniotes weren't considered as Maniots, they weren't even Christian. They also came rather late in the region, namely around 1715. No reason to expand on unrelated material.

 

[Demetrios]

Yes, I'm familiar with that graphic.

I remember combing the data in the paper and supplement over and over again trying to get a handle on what "Italian" in the context of the paper means for the authors. It seems and seemed to me that it changed its meaning as to whom it includes depending on the particular graphic or paragraph, but they never clarify it. That's what I meant when I said that it wasn't very clearly or well written. We talked a lot about it in the early parts of the thread.

Yes, the Mani icon just barely misses the "Italian" icon, but is that the Tuscans? If it is, then the Mani icon would be right over where the Southern Italians might plot. Plus, there really is almost no difference between certain Sicilians and certain Calabresi, for example.

Even ignoring that, the graphic supports the conclusion reached by the authors that the Mani aren't very similar to anyone with, the exception of the Sicilians. Even in that case it's only some of the Mani. I would add some similarity to a few people in East Tay. Only one sample, but still.

I don't think their distance from everyone is all that unusual considering their isolation.

I don't think that means we can't draw some conclusions, however. Sardegna also plots far away from everyone else because of drift, but we can and do study them, and draw a lot of conclusions from them. The Ogliastra region is even more isolated, with less influence from the outside world, but it still tells us a lot about Copper Age/early Bronze Age unadmixed "Old Europe". It's just that conclusions have to be cautious ones.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

No arguing here, but i would still like to see more studies on them. They seem to make a very widespread cluster, and the Deep Mani sub-cluster which is also the most conservative with almost no Slavic admixture, isn't close to anyone. On the other hand, East Tayetos which is the sub-cluster closer to Sicilians, have some 5.7%-10.9% Slavic admixture. That's why i appear reserved with my aforementioned comment.

 

[LABERIA]

Barduniotes weren't considered as Maniots, they weren't even Christian. They also came rather late in the region, namely around 1715. No reason to expand on unrelated material.

I didn't said that Bardhuniotes were Maniates. We don't know when they arrived there, it's not clear. We don't know when they converted in Muslims but we know that some of them converted in Christianity, the same with Laliotes.
BTW, this theory about this connection of Maniates with the Illyrian tribe with the same name from the today territory of Montenegro is a Greek theory supported during the last two centuries by various Greek scholars.

 

[Demetrios]

I didn't said that Bardhuniotes were Maniates. We don't know when they arrived there, it's not clear. We don't know when they converted in Muslims but we know that some of them converted in Christianity, the same with Laliotes.
BTW, this theory about this connection of Maniates with the Illyrian tribe with the same name from the today territory of Montenegro is a Greek theory supported during the last two centuries by various Greek scholars.

Barduniotes make their appearance with the arrival of the Turks in the region, namely around 1715. They were placed at the borders of Mani to essentially guard the pass, because Mani was autonomous and never really under Ottoman rule. The name of their region most probably stems from the Venetian word "bardia" meaning guard. As for their religious affiliation, they only converted to Christianity after the Hellenic Republic was established. Last, Laliotes weren't in Laconia but in Elia (northwestern Peloponnese). Again, no reason to continue with unrelated subjects.

There are countless of hypotheses for the name of Mani, literally. Greek scholars don't have one but many.

 

[Angela]

Barduniotes make their appearance with the arrival of the Turks in the region, namely around 1715. They were placed at the borders of Mani to essentially guard the pass, because Mani was autonomous and never really under Ottoman rule. The name of their region most probably stems from the Venetian word "bardia" meaning guard. As for their religious affiliation, they only converted to Christianity after the Hellenic Republic was established. Last, Laliotes weren't in Laconia but in Elia (northwestern Peloponnese). Again, no reason to continue with unrelated subjects.

There are countless of hypotheses for the name of Mani, literally. Greek scholars don't have one but many.

Game and point.

No more provocative posts based on lack of knowledge of the subject matter.

 

[Kelmendasi]

@Demetrios, Kelmandasi,

Yes, that's what I thought. I didn't remember the figures for J1 being all that high in Cyprus. Some late arriving J2 clades might also have carried some Levantine, yes?

As to Demetrios' specific point here:
"Regarding J1, there was also a southwestern Anatolian EBA sample that had it from the study of this thread. Namely one from Isparta, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/table/T1/. And in addition the study also had the following statement, "while the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.". I wouldn't find it surprising if some also made its way to Cyprus, it's certain it did."

I've been trying to get this point across to people since I don't know when.

Some of the "Levantine" they find in other groups might have arrived with Anatolians, not just with Arabs or Jews.

I'm thinking of Crete as just one example.

The Early Bronze Age Anatolian sample was Z1828*, a clade which today is primarily found in the Caucasus. It's safe to say that the Z1828 clades in Cyprus may be of Anatolian origin, though thus far I haven't come across any Z1828+ Cypriots.

Majority of Cypriot J1 is P58, and most of those P58 clades are bound to be positive for Z2313 or YSC234. Z2313 and Z2313>YSC234 are associated with Proto-Semitic speakers and their subclades definitely expanded with Semitic speaking groups. Not likely that they would be of local Anatolia origin. I checked the STR values for some of the J1 Greek Cypriots from the study and it does seem that most should be YSC234+.

 

[MOESAN]

Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

I like this interpretation; so, modern Greeks are just middle pigmented people for hair, light and dark being the exception?
But in fact, very dark brown hair is closer to black than to middle brown hair, what a mess! And it is not the first time I see this kind of statement, concerning rather dark pigmented Europeans.

 

[MOESAN]

I'm sorry fo this late reaction I had when I looked again better to the beginning of this thread; I assume my remark but it is a bit out off topic concerning ancient Greeks. I flied a bit too quickly over this thread, at first. I 'll try to to best.

 

[Angela]

I like this interpretation; so, modern Greeks are just middle pigmented people for hair, light and dark being the exception?
But in fact, very dark brown hair is closer to black than to middle brown hair, what a mess! And it is not the first time I see this kind of statement, concerning rather dark pigmented Europeans.

I was quoting someone, I think.

Strictly from observation, "most",not all, Greek Islanders I've seen have dark brown to black hair.

There is quite a large Greek population here around me, and the mainlanders very rarely have what I would consider black hair, and some have light brown hair, but the majority is still medium to dark brown.

Our Greek members are free to criticize that.

This is a "Greek" thread, so I won't run on about Italians, but I don't think I ever saw a "black" haired Italian in my parts. Dark brown hair, yes. I have it, inherited from my mother.

My husband, on the other hand, has as close to black hair as a non Asian, non African can get, but even in his own family it's very much the minority, although present, specifically in his maternal Calabrian grandfather and his mother, from whom he inherited it. The rest are either blonde and blue eyed like his Neapolitan grandmother, or dark brown haired and brown eyed. Strangely, on his father's side, they are lighter: medium and even some light brown haired, and green or hazel eyes. You never know what you're going to get in Italy.

 

[Demetrios]

I was quoting someone, I think.

Strictly from observation, "most",not all, Greek Islanders I've seen have dark brown to black hair.

There is quite a large Greek population here around me, and the mainlanders very rarely have what I would consider black hair, and some have light brown hair, but the majority is still medium to dark brown.

Our Greek members are free to criticize that.

This is a "Greek" thread, so I won't run on about Italians, but I don't think I ever saw a "black" haired Italian in my parts. Dark brown hair, yes. I have it, inherited from my mother.

My husband, on the other hand, has as close to black hair as a non Asian, non African can get, but even in his own family it's very much the minority, although present, specifically in his maternal Calabrian grandfather and his mother, from whom he inherited it. The rest are either blonde and blue eyed like his Neapolitan grandmother, or dark brown haired and brown eyed. Strangely, on his father's side, they are lighter: medium and even some light brown haired, and green or hazel eyes. You never know what you're going to get in Italy.

It's mostly as you write. Here is also a more specified report based on 119 samples from a paper, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497312001810#tbl0005. I was personally born blonde, but after 3 years of age or so it turned light brown, and i have light brown eyes.

 

[MOESAN]

I don't think this thread is a Greek one. It's about Minoans and Mycenians and concerns Greek in the sense they are for a great part descendants of Mycenians, but it concerns other southern Europeans and in some way, culturally speaking, all Europeans. But even if recent history is interesting, it would not be too profitable to speak of too recent events in Greece history, without too much links with the Proto-historic period. Not to say nothing is interesting in some points made in the last parts of the thread.
I have the impression this thread could turn into an Albania-Greece contest. (half LOL)

 

[Demetrios]

You write, "Correct, by the end of the 19th century the Arvanite communities of Peloponnese were concentrated in Argolis, Corinth, Messenia, Elis, and Eastern Lakonia, and sporadically found elsewhere too.".
Arvanites constituted approximately 1/6 of Peloponnese. And they inhabited these regions by the 19th century,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG.

You write, "Correct again, Arvanites shouldn't necessarily cluster with Maniots or Tsakones, although we don't have data for that. It's unfortunate that the previous study on Peloponnese focused only on how "Slavic" they were and used as comparison only South Italians and Sicilians.
Correct again, Greeks and Albanians have to be quite similar since we're neighbours, and on top of that many migrations brought us genetically closer.".
You don't seem to understand that there were also plenty of samples from areas that were prevalent in Arvanites in the study, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718/figures/1. They also don't cluster close to Maniots and Tsakones, none from Peloponnese or Greece in general does. And i write again, Albanians and Greeks do cluster close autosomally, yet you suggest that two of the most conservative populations in the Peloponnese would cluster with Arvanites but none of the rest of the Greeks which after all cluster with Albanians. Also, comparison isn't just with southern Italians and Sicilians, but with many other people as well. Go study the supplementary information.

Genetic affinity of Greeks and Albanians is mainly due to both being palaeo-Balkan populations. As for migrations, take note that much of modern Albania in antiquity was designated as "Illyria Graeca" due to the many coastal Greek colonies and the fact that its residents were essentially Hellenized. On the other hand, the descendants of Arvanites throughout Greece are some 200,000-250,000 in a total Greek population of some 10,000,000. Peloponnese alone is home to 1,200,000 Greeks in total.

You write, "It's ok, you can ask. Don't let my Albanian ethnicity make you think I'm here to steal your people.".
To be honest most of the comments coming from Albanians are provocative, unrelated, and appear to have a nationalistic agenda. I am not worrying of you stealing my people, i know what my people are.

You write, "Perhaps, but most of Arvanites came from Epirus, Thessally, and Aetolia, eventually moving South with time. You're indirectly hinting at the fact that Albanians in Epirus and Thessaly had never heard Greek before.
So we can't know if those Arvanites carried the word Shklerishte from modern Northern Greece or maybe found actual still not assimilated Slavs there in the 13th-15th century.".
The Arvanites don't come from Epirus, Thessaly, and Aetolia, but from Central and Northern Albania. They are part of the broader Albanian migrations to the South, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#/media/File:13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png during the Middle Ages. I am not referring to intermediate locations such as Thessaly. Before migrating South, there were certainly many instances during their history that they were only surrounded by Slavic populations, hence how "shklerishte" formed and later got generalized. The term wasn't only used by the Arvanites of Laconia, but generally throughout them.

You write, "Anyway my point is that I mentioned only 1 migration scenario that can complicate things and I'm using this scenario to express my opinion that despite Tsakonia and Mani being isolated during the last 1000 years, there's still another 1000 years or more gap since antiquity which could have enriched these areas genetically. Therefore, it's dubious they represent the real ancient Lakonians. The closest modern population to them, maybe. Although Crete deserves to be included too in this topic.".
Enriched by who again? It is certain Tsakonians and Maniots are conservative ancient populations. I mention again that in the case of Tsakonians we have a preserved Doric dialect (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw), and in the cases of both Maniots and Tsakonians we know that they converted to Christianity rather late, namely during the 10th-12th centuries CE (similar to the case of Scandinavia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula#Religion). Before that they followed ancient Greek religious practices.

You write, "FYI, the first and most of the Arbereshe Albanians in Sicily came specifically from these areas, namely Morea, as they sing about it calling it their homeland. And that paper on Peloponnese was really disappointing, so I wouldn't be surprised if they messed up many details in there, especially when using small samples where 1 coincidence makes you draw 100 conclusions.".
I know of Arbereshe people. It's interesting that they sing of Peloponnese despite the fact that they arrived there approximately during the 14th century CE and left during the 15th century CE. Nonetheless, Arbereshe also included migrants from Albania. Furthermore, don't forget that some of the Griko (Greek minority) people in southern Italy, also left Greece the same time with Arbereshe, to avoid the Turks. As for the paper, it's not disappointing, it's just that many don't read it properly.

You write, "And I always forgot to find some time and dig deep into that paper, but does Peloponnese really have 10% Slavic admix (I remember some areas as high as 11-12%)? Slavic admix as in 10% Ukrainian/Belarussian or Bulgarian/Serbian?".
The Slavic populations used to describe Slavic admixture are modern Belarusians, Russians, Polish and Ukrainians. They are a good example of how original Slavs that entered the Balkans would have been. Modern Bulgarians and Serbians aren't good examples of what the Medieval Slavs that entered the Balkans would have been, because Balkan Slavs have assimilated many pre-Slavic populations.

Peloponnese has 0.2%-14,4% Slavic admixture. The highest is in Messenia at 6.7%-14.4%.

 

[Demetrios]

I don't think this thread is a Greek one. It's about Minoans and Mycenians and concerns Greek in the sense they are for a great part descendants of Mycenians, but it concerns other southern Europeans and in some way, culturally speaking, all Europeans. But even if recent history is interesting, it would not be too profitable to speak of too recent events in Greece history, without too much links with the Proto-historic period. Not to say nothing is interesting in some points made in the last parts of the thread.
I have the impression this thread could turn into an Albania-Greece contest. (half LOL)

I wouldn't like to turn this into a Greek-Albanian contest, because quite honestly the thread would end up in the bin. And no, this is not a Greek thread and indeed it concerns all Europeans, that's why it would be preferable to focus on the original topic. But it's a little difficult when you are being provoked.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Yeah, here it is. Pretty much what the study also described, "finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy". Italy (especially south) seems to have preserved its Aegean ancestry a little more, as a result of not assimilating any Slavic elements. Although i should stress again that Slavic frequency varies throughout Greece, being more dense in the north than in the south. For example, Peloponnese has between 0.2%-14.4%, with the lowest being in Deep Mani (0.7%-1%) and South Tsakonia (0.2%-0.9%), both of them in Laconia.

View attachment 11604

Here is a copy I found of an early PC map from Cavalli-Sforza et al. It looks like the Mycenaean sample. There seems to be a "regionality" with Greece and Albania, where there's more in common with early Neolithic farmers. Cavalli-Sforza was very interested in how farming spread in Europe, demic or cultural.

 

[Angela]

Nik, all your posts on the Arvanites are totally off topic, and have nothing to do with the discussion here.

I will not tolerate provocative posts meant to start another one of your stupid Balkan wars.

All of them will deleted, and you will get an infraction.

From now on, any such posts will automatically be deleted and you will get another infraction.

Civilized discussion ends when you start this crap.

Everybody else, and I mean everybody, is sick of it.

STOP.

This all applies to you too, Laberia.

This is going to end.