Johane Derite
Regular Member
- Messages
- 1,851
- Reaction score
- 886
- Points
- 113
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U1a1a
You write, "On Eupedia, old Dienekes blogposts, some other forums, roughly this is the number that is seen. You know that very well. Then on the Em35 project, and Yfull checking greek results one can learn about individual clades.
But you are right, there is no greek dna project transparantly making their results available like the Albanian dna project. That doesn't surprise me.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml”.
I am already aware of the general E-V13 frequency in Greeks. I asked you do you have any actual sources for each individual line to be claiming most of it came 3000 ybp and supposedly having ramifications for Greek historiography and nationhood? And you obviously don’t.
You write, “There is nothing convincingly proto-greek about those two individual clades, and even if one of them was, it would negate the other, since one is in montenegro, the other in bulgaria.”.
LOL, one in Bulgaria, one in Montenegro, and both of them in Greece during the proto-Greek period. How appropriate, right?
You write, “If you really want to avoid the Illyrian term, call it hallstatt, call it celt, call it thracian, it still isn't greek.”.
I am not avoiding anything. There are differences among all these people, and we have a name for all because they are all distinctive. And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.
You write, “Majority of I2a in greeks and Albanians is slavic, and its clear to anybody that the exceptions are well known, aka the gothic one, etc. Those are a given. Yet again, Albanian dna project is very transparant, we show all our lineages, even foreign ones, whereas I don't see any greek dna project doing this. You should agitate your fellow countrymen to do the same so you won't be stuck to only studying Albanian percentages meticulously.”.
I didn’t claim that the majority of I2a in Greeks and Albanians is not Slavic in origin, but there is obviously pre-Slavic presence as well. As for the second point, that’s a way of saying, i don’t know of any sources, but i still claim that most of E-V13 lines in Greece are 3000 ybp, and supposedly non-Greek. I got your point.
You write, “Greeks archaeologically emerge in 7th century BC, this is their ethnogenesis remember?”.
Obviously you are a little confused and probably don’t remember. Before you wrote 3000 ybp to be too late in Greek history, now you write 7th century BCE to be the beginning. In any case, as aforementioned Greek history and archaeology begins with the proto-Greeks during the 3rd millennium BCE (look at "Minyan ware" as an archaeological example) and the ethnogenesis of the Greeks during the 8th century BCE with the rise of Pan-Hellenism (look at the ancient Olympic Games as an example). We can likewise say that the ethnogenesis of Albanians only begins with the League of Lezhë in 1444 CE, despite the fact that Albanians existed since way earlier.
You write, “Why would we speak along autosomal lines if discussing patrilineality? We are speaking about whether paternal groups came with a greek group or a non-greek group, and how non-greek men (hallstatians, celtics, thracians, illyrians) brought them to greece.”.
I bring up autosomal DNA as an example to show you that assimilation of earlier groups happened, and you still view them as Greek, despite the fact that they were not proto-Greek, but pre-Greek. The same is true with many Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups, that were either assimilations of earlier people or later introductions. Nations are always evolving. You can likewise see that in the Albanian frequencies i shared, but i am certain you wouldn’t go and call any Albanian as of Slavic, Celtic, Norman, Greek or etc. origin. You still view them as Albanian, and they are indeed. After all, Y-DNA represents only 2% of the total DNA.
You write, “Again, Ev13 in the volga, etc doesn't relate to the majority of Greek ev13 being clades that are younger than 3000 years and come from non-greek balkan areas.”.
Again with the majority. Do you have any source for claiming that the majority of E-V13 lines in Greece are from the 3000 ybp clades? You obviously don’t, but you think it as appropriate to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. And besides, these 3000 ybp lines seem to come from non-Balkan areas, not Balkan areas.
You write, “Take E-FGC33621 for example. You have it in Chania, Crete, a basal clade in Bulgaria, and a very deep rooted Albanian clan that belongs to it, and north west euros also. Nothing at all proto-greek about it:”.
Yeah, and this line appears to be Hallstatt in origin, and one example doesn’t translate to a majority as you seem to be claiming throughout these comments.
Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.
Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.
This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.
Enough damage control.