Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Pax Augusta]

I also doubt more samples would change the fact they don't overlap. It would still be nice to have them for comparison though.
As you said this paper focuses on Italians so I get the discrepancy. But considering Tuscany has some 3.8 million population, and Albania proper ~3.6 million I would say the PCA is not really representative. Would love to see a paper focusing on Southern Europe in the future with representative sampling. A few old academic papers I have seen ~10 years+ even omit Albanians in the PCAs so I guess this is a good start.

This applies to any study and population. To be fussy, the majority of Tuscans live north of the Arno, which is the least sampled area in Tuscany (It is not clear from which exact area of the province of Florence TSI comes from). If there were also samples from there, the Tuscans would be even closer than they are to the Ligurians and Emilians. Going back to the main topic, Albanians are a Balkan population, Tuscans are not a Balkan population and are within the Italian cluster and cline. There is really no point in thinking that there is an overlap. If Albanians overlap with Tuscans it means that they overlap with other Italians too.

 

[Demetrios]

I also doubt more samples would change the fact they don't overlap. It would still be nice to have them for comparison though.
As you said this paper focuses on Italians so I get the discrepancy. But considering Tuscany has some 3.8 million population, and Albania proper ~3.6 million I would say the PCA is not really representative. Would love to see a paper focusing on Southern Europe in the future with representative sampling. A few old academic papers I have seen ~10 years+ even omit Albanians in the PCAs so I guess this is a good start.

There is also this following paper, "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean" (2017), but it focuses on southern Italy, not Tuscany. It nonetheless includes a varied collection of Greek, Albanian, and Italian sub-populations and compares them. Also, the sample-size of each is adequate.

 

[Archetype0ne]

There is also this following paper, "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean" (2017), but it focuses on southern Italy, not Tuscany. It nonetheless includes a varied collection of Greek, Albanian, and Italian sub-populations and compares them. Also, the sample-size of each is adequate.

Thanks. Your contributions with studies are most welcome

This applies to any study and population. To be fussy, the majority of Tuscans live north of the Arno, which is the least sampled area in Tuscany (It is not clear from which exact area of the province of Florence TSI comes from). If there were also samples from there, the Tuscans would be even closer than they are to the Ligurians and Emilians. Going back to the main topic, Albanians are a Balkan population, Tuscans are not a Balkan population and are within the Italian cluster and cline. There is really no point in thinking that there is an overlap. If Albanians overlap with Tuscans it means that they overlap with other Italians too.

I hope I did not give you the impression that I implied otherwise. I think I was explicit enough in my very first sentence...
"I also doubt more samples would change the fact they don't overlap. It would still be nice to have them for comparison though."


As to the fact that overlapping with one part of the population you have to overlap with the whole continuum, I will have to disagree. A counterexample: I overlap with Thessalians and Central Macedonians, yet have no connections to Crete or Cyprus. But this is beside the point IMO.

Tuscans in the modern sense most certainly are as Italian as it gets, and in the Italian genetic continuum. However the autosomal connections to BA and IA Balkans should be quite evident from the MBA Dalmatian sample and the IA Bulgarian sample, which share quite an affinity with modern Tuscans. Don't you think?

PS: I find it weird that the overwhelming majority of autosomal calculators places me close to Tuscans and initially I was surprised as it is counter-intuitive. I had thought surely Albanians would be closer to Southern Italians, and not that far up North. Some calculators even go as far as Swiss Italian (quite a few actually) when I run my autosomal data.

Anyways, I hope you don't take this as me disagreeing (beside the counterexample). What you say is true. On top of that I really think autosomal calculators and PCA-s as a method are flawed. Jovialis examples of Jews overlaping with South Italy and Greece should reinforce my point. Ex: A Portuguese mother and a Russian Father, their progeny will fall somewhere in central Europe on the PCA... So we should take all this with a grain of salt.

 

[kingjohn]

I am not saying that they have a similar history, or that they are descendants of ancient Greeks. The aforementioned autosomal similarity could also be due to having a bit more northern European admixture compared to other Levantine populations, and thus this mix would place them close to Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands. Can't recall their admixture results though. But their mtDNA results at least do suggest considerable European ancestry. Then again, i am not negating the possibility that some could have an Aegean origin, not speaking of all of course. For example, take note of the fact that in the past Judaism used to be very proselytist (actually the word proselytism originally referred to Judaism conversion - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism). If i recall correctly, Judaism only ceased proselytizing under imposition by its relative sects and the Roman Empire. Along these lines have a look at the following map showing that in the 1st-2nd centuries CE, the Jewish diaspora was mainly concentrated in Greek-inhabited areas.

thanks for the map
didn't knew there was synagogue in stobi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobi#/media/File:Stobi_tlocrt.gif
modern day north macedonia
that is cool :cool-v:
maybe there was indeed a jewish community there in roman times

 

[ihype02]

Mainland Greece is genetically homogeneous for most parts with some few exceptions. This is shown in both academic and non-academic PCAs.

Even Maniotes are not as close to Sicilians as some islands.

 

[Hawk]

E-V13 in Greece is connected with the LBA invasion of people from the North. There is a great chance that the same people were connected with some of the Sea People. Even the Kapitan Andreevo site full of E-V13 shows traces of Western Balkans/Pannonia/Eastern Urnfield heavy influence.

A flange-hilted knife with a ring-end was found in tomb 15 of the cemetery at Ialysos on Rhodes.19 The type can be associ-ated with the Urnfield koine of weapons and implements. Parallels exist in Italy, east central Europe and the Northern Balkans. Therefore, the knife from Ialysos indicates a con-nection to the Adriatic region, which cannot be specified.




Therefore, the cases of Elateia and Perati do not weaken the general validity of the observation that Naue II swords and cremation buri-als are both concentrated in the same regions of the Aegean. The Naue II swords and other bronze objects of Italian, or more generally Adriatic, inspiration strongly indicate that the new burial custom of cremation was introduced to the traditional Aegean chamber tomb cemeteries from Italy and not from Asia Minor.


For all these reasons, it can be deduced that the burial communities, who used the tumuli at Mycenae-Chania and Argos were groups of foreigners or were of foreign descent. It is almost impossible for a popu-lation group of foreign origin to leave more obvious marks in the archaeological record.




http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf4.pdf

 

[blevins13]

E-V13 in Greece is connected with the LBA invasion of people from the North. There is a great chance that the same people were connected with some of the Sea People. Even the Kapitan Andreevo site full of E-V13 shows traces of Western Balkans/Pannonia/Eastern Urnfield heavy influence.

A flange-hilted knife with a ring-end was found in tomb 15 of the cemetery at Ialysos on Rhodes.19 The type can be associ-ated with the Urnfield koine of weapons and implements. Parallels exist in Italy, east central Europe and the Northern Balkans. Therefore, the knife from Ialysos indicates a con-nection to the Adriatic region, which cannot be specified.




Therefore, the cases of Elateia and Perati do not weaken the general validity of the observation that Naue II swords and cremation buri-als are both concentrated in the same regions of the Aegean. The Naue II swords and other bronze objects of Italian, or more generally Adriatic, inspiration strongly indicate that the new burial custom of cremation was introduced to the traditional Aegean chamber tomb cemeteries from Italy and not from Asia Minor.


For all these reasons, it can be deduced that the burial communities, who used the tumuli at Mycenae-Chania and Argos were groups of foreigners or were of foreign descent. It is almost impossible for a popu-lation group of foreign origin to leave more obvious marks in the archaeological record.




http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf4.pdf

I have the same opinion, but it seems that this is considered agenda here by some members.....:


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[noUseForAname]

The paper actually referred to modern populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy, not North Macedonia and Bulgaria. Specifically, "We estimated FST of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7).". Anyway, he isn't trying to exclude Albanians or anyone else for that matter from the conversation. He simply emphasized that this thread is for Minoans/Mycenaeans. It's easy to diverge from a thread's original subject, i know since i have done it also in the past quite unintended.

Thx for sharing the exact info, I believe current modern population of Bulgaria would be more differentiated yes, but i would definitely not exclude North Macedonia to some extent...

Ralph & Coop mentioned "On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous because Greek and Macedonian samples shared much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. At the same time the sampled Italians shared nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.^[156]""

My opinion would be (supposition) that Mycenaeans would be closest with current modern 1. Greeks 2. Albanians 3. North Macedonians (not slavic part) 4. Italy (I guess more south)

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Thx for sharing the exact info, I believe current modern population of Bulgaria would be more differentiated yes, but i would definitely not exclude North Macedonia to some extent...

Ralph & Coop mentioned "On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous because Greek and Macedonian samples shared much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. At the same time the sampled Italians shared nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.^[156]""

My opinion would be (supposition) that Mycenaeans would be closest with current modern 1. Greeks 2. Albanians 3. North Macedonians (not slavic part) 4. Italy (I guess more south)

From a geographic and genetic standpoint there appears to be a cline between Greek Macedonians in the north and Peloponnesians in the south, though there is overlap. The study to which the first image below belongs uses Arcadians, who in another study cluster with other Peloponnesians except for deep Mani and Tsakonia. But Peloponnese should occupy the space near the Crete Armenoi sample in this study, as was said before.

 

[Demetrios]

E-V13 in Greece is connected with the LBA invasion of people from the North. There is a great chance that the same people were connected with some of the Sea People. Even the Kapitan Andreevo site full of E-V13 shows traces of Western Balkans/Pannonia/Eastern Urnfield heavy influence.

A flange-hilted knife with a ring-end was found in tomb 15 of the cemetery at Ialysos on Rhodes.19 The type can be associ-ated with the Urnfield koine of weapons and implements. Parallels exist in Italy, east central Europe and the Northern Balkans. Therefore, the knife from Ialysos indicates a con-nection to the Adriatic region, which cannot be specified.

Therefore, the cases of Elateia and Perati do not weaken the general validity of the observation that Naue II swords and cremation buri-als are both concentrated in the same regions of the Aegean. The Naue II swords and other bronze objects of Italian, or more generally Adriatic, inspiration strongly indicate that the new burial custom of cremation was introduced to the traditional Aegean chamber tomb cemeteries from Italy and not from Asia Minor.

For all these reasons, it can be deduced that the burial communities, who used the tumuli at Mycenae-Chania and Argos were groups of foreigners or were of foreign descent. It is almost impossible for a popu-lation group of foreign origin to leave more obvious marks in the archaeological record.

http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf4.pdf

Naue II swords are part of a broader cross-cultural communication phenomenon that had began from much earlier than the LBA and therefore they cannot be strictly associated with a mere invasion. To understand their distribution, you first have to understand the contact between the Mycenaean civilization and the societies of Europe which occurred within different types of established networks. In some cases, contacts were indirect, as systems of connected "networks of networks" allowed objects and ideas to travel via middlemen. In other cases, they were direct and occurred within smaller networks that provided particularly efficient links. Once established, these connections inevitably became catalysts of cultural exchange in many forms that eventually led to profound social change throughout the European continent. In the Bronze Age, networks for the supply of raw materials, and later more refined commodities, created incentives for individuals to move across the mainland, taking on many different roles, such as those of travelling craftsmen and traders, warriors and mercenaries, emissaries and perhaps explorers. The evidence for Mycenaean contacts with Europe in the mid 2nd millennium BCE is rich and diverse. Of the items that speak of cross-cultural communication, one may find amber, bone and antler horse harnesses, dress fasteners, personal ornaments and jewellery, weaponry and tools, as well as Handmade Burnished Ware made of local clay. The published data clearly indicates that long-distance communication between the societies of Central Europe, northern Italy and the Aegean had already taken shape at the beginning of the Mycenaean civilization, dated to 1700 BCE. Nonetheless, it was the transition from the 13th to the 12th century BCE when these relations became particularly intense. According to Bouzek, at that time one might speak of a koine (common market) in material culture between the Aegean, the Balkans, northern Italy and Central Europe. Here is also an approximate reconstruction of the aforementioned pan-European communication network based on the geographical distribution of archaeological objects that relate. The structure of this network is largely determined by natural pathways such as rivers and navigable coasts, as well as barriers such as mountain ranges and rugged coastlines.

In the case of weapons, we have examples of both Mycenaean and European origin. For instance, at least 23 rapiers and 42 swords of Mycenaean type have been found in the Balkans and in the Carpathian Basin, mostly dated to the Early Mycenaean period. There are also some (disputed) examples which possibly indicate analogies with Mycenaean forms and technologies from Central, Northern and Western Europe. These include the finds from Nürnberg-Hammer (Germany), Ajak (Hungary), Dollerup and Ørskovhede (Denmark), Adliswill (Switzerland), Saône (France), Surbo (Italy), Pelynt (Britain) and Spišský Štvrtok (Slovakia), most of which date from the 14th to 11th centuries BCE. As you might expect, a different group of weapons is represented by the Central European cut-and-thrust flange-hilted swords of the Naue II type that appeared in the Aegean at the end of the 13th and throughout the 12th century BCE. The earliest specimen come from Mycenae, Langada on Kos and Enkomi on Cyprus. In the beginning, Naue II swords occurred with Mycenaean counterpart swords. However, since Central European swords were more efficient in combat, they quickly replaced the Mycenaean types. Aegean craftsmen rapidly adopted Central European types of swords and began manufacturing them locally in modified forms. Naue II turned out to be so versatile that in the 12th and 11th centuries BCE it became the only type of sword used in Europe, the Aegean and the Near East. In total at least 50 swords of Naue II type have been found in the Aegean and around 29 in the Near East. Here is a more detailed distribution map of Naue II type swords. The isolines represent the average number of swords within a radius of 250km. The highest density (c. 180) occurs in Jutland. The dots represent one or more Naue II finds.

During the 13th and 12th centuries BCE, several flange-hilted Peschiera type daggers appeared in Mycenaean Greece as well, mostly on Crete. They originated in northern Italy and it seems that they were imitations of Mycenaean models. Peschiera daggers spread all over Europe, from the Carpathians to France and from Italy and the Balkans to Denmark. Their distribution can therefore be interpreted as an indication of a wider bronze working tradition embracing Central Europe, northern Italy and the Aegean. While none of the Aegean Peschiera daggers are datable by context, their European parallels belong to the 13th and 12th centuries BCE. Alongside swords and daggers, new spearheads of so-called "northern origin" appeared in the Aegean during the 13th and 12th centuries BCE. They were mostly found in the Argolid, Achaea, Attica, Epirus, on Crete, Kephalonia and Ithaca as well as in Boeotia, Corinthia, Phocis and Elis. In terms of shape, three main types of spearheads can be distinguished: A) lanceolate (geflammte), B) with a midrib (being a hybrid between lanceolate and leaf-shaped forms), and C) small leaf-shaped variants. Many of these spearheads came from burials and were associated with Naue II swords as well as with Mycenaean spears, which suggests that they belonged to the standardized equipment of the Late Bronze Age warriors.

You can read more about these in the two following papers. Much of the above i shared is cited in the second paper below.
https://www.academia.edu/21306979/The_Dissemination_of_Naue_II_swords_a_Case_Study_on_Long_distance_Mobility
https://www.academia.edu/26343962/The_Mycenaeans_and_Europe_Long_distance_networks_and_cross_cultural_communication

With all that said, it indeed seems that the most predominant clades of E-V13 in Greece are associated with central Europe and this cross-cultural communication phenomenon and it could have arrived around that LBA time, but that doesn't necessarily pertain to either an invasion or a mass migration. It could be a small number of mercenaries that chose to stay in Greece instead of returning back to their respective homes, as is suggested by the first paper above where it says, "There remains, then, the intriguing issue of how returning warriors/mercenaries changed their home societies, bringing back new ideas, innovations and, of course, material wealth. With reference to later historical parallels, such as the Celtic and Germanic mercenaries who, after their service had ended, returned home with Roman weapons and prestige goods, it seems justifiable to interpret finds of Greek armour in eastern Central Europe during the 14th to 12th century BC as similar evidence of warriors returning from Mycenaean service (where Central European and also Italian flange-hilted swords testify to their presence during the same period, cf. Jung and Mehofer 2008). Thus, the exceptional richness of the Danish burial mounds may have been more intimately linked with the political fate of the Aegean, and the societies of Bronze Age Europe more tightly connected, then is commonly acknowledged.". And of course this suggestion, doesn't pertain to the totality of Naue II sword presence in the Aegean, since as aforementioned it seems that the sword had been adopted as standardized equipment by the LBA/EIA warriors of the aforementioned regions, including the ones from the Aegean, either as imported goods or as locally manufactured modified versions.

 

[noUseForAname]

Not in any decent peer reviewed PCA that has all possible populations.

But even in the G25 itself when as many populations as possible are added there is no real overlap.

So from these more reliable date we have: Greek/Thessaly in the exact same cluster with Albanians, also same cluster just a hair further with Greek/Greek Central Macedonia



We know that and we dont want to mix the EEF, ANE and WHG, which are part of autosomal (whole genome - Y DNA) composition of Europeans with uni-parental haplotype markers of E-V13, R1b and others, which are indicators of Y chromosome only (2% of whole genome) as in the study below - However doesnt here also cluster Greeks and Albanians together?




Also the stats below, although all Y chromosomes, the very close percentages with Greeks and Albanians, also pretty close with North Macedonia and South Italy, especially Greek/Peloponnese with Albanians/Kosovo with exact same E-V13 47%, and so on...

Population -------------------------- Albanians(Kosovar)	Language ------------ IE (Albanian)	N ------ 114	R1b ------- 21.10	R1a ------- 4.42	I ----------- I1=5.31 I2a2=2.65	E-V13 --------- 47.37	J --------- J2=16.7	G ----- 0	N --- 0	T --- 0	Others ---------------- P[xQ,R1]=1.77	Reference ---------------------- Pericic2005[3]
Greeks (Peloponnese)	IE (Greek)	36	—	—	—	47	—	—	—	—	—	Semino2004[8]
Greeks (South)	IE (Greek)	46	19.6	2.2	23.9	43.5	—	6.5	—	2.2	—	Zalloua2008[31]
Cantabrians(Pasiegos)	IE (Italic)	56	—	—	—	42.9	—	—	—	—	—	Cruciani2004[20]
Albanians(Macedonia)	IE (Albanian)	64	18.8	1.6	I1=4.5 I2a=12.5	39.1	J1=6.3 J2=15.6	1.6	0.0	0.0	—	Battaglia2008[5]
Greeks (North)	IE (Greek)	96	14.6	18.8	12.5	35.4	—	5.2	—	2.1	L=1	Zalloua2008[31]
Italians (East Sicily)	IE (Italic)	87	20.0	2.3	5.0	29.0	—	5.0	—	5.0	—	Zalloua2008[31]
Italians (Sicily)	IE (Italic)		—	—	8.8	27.3	23.8	—	—	—	—	Semino2004[8]
Cypriots	IE (Greek)	45	9.0	2.0	—	27.0	—	—	—	—	—	Rosser2000[13]
Italians (South)	IE (Italic)	68	25.0	3.0	6.0	26.0	—	15.0	—	3.0	—	Zalloua2008[31]
Albanians	IE (Albanian)	55	18.2	9.1	I1=3.6 I2a=14.5 I2b=3.6	27.5	J1=3.6 J2=20.0	1.8	0.0	0.0	—	Battaglia2008[5]
Greeks	IE (Greek)	84/92	—	—	—	21.0	6.5	—	—	—	—	Semino2004[8]
Greeks (Macedonia)	IE (Greek)	57	14.0	12.3	I1=8.8 I2a=21.0	22.9	J1=1.8 J2=14.1	1.8	—	1.8	—	Battaglia 2008[5]

Only more late Neolithic to late Bronze age samples, and time will tell more I guess!

 

[Archetype0ne]

Naue II swords are part of a broader cross-cultural communication phenomenon that had began from much earlier than the LBA and therefore they cannot be strictly associated with a mere invasion. To understand their distribution, you first have to understand the contact between the Mycenaean civilization and the societies of Europe which occurred within different types of established networks. In some cases, contacts were indirect, as systems of connected "networks of networks" allowed objects and ideas to travel via middlemen. In other cases, they were direct and occurred within smaller networks that provided particularly efficient links. Once established, these connections inevitably became catalysts of cultural exchange in many forms that eventually led to profound social change throughout the European continent. In the Bronze Age, networks for the supply of raw materials, and later more refined commodities, created incentives for individuals to move across the mainland, taking on many different roles, such as those of travelling craftsmen and traders, warriors and mercenaries, emissaries and perhaps explorers. The evidence for Mycenaean contacts with Europe in the mid 2nd millennium BCE is rich and diverse. Of the items that speak of cross-cultural communication, one may find amber, bone and antler horse harnesses, dress fasteners, personal ornaments and jewellery, weaponry and tools, as well as Handmade Burnished Ware made of local clay. The published data clearly indicates that long-distance communication between the societies of Central Europe, northern Italy and the Aegean had already taken shape at the beginning of the Mycenaean civilization, dated to 1700 BCE. Nonetheless, it was the transition from the 13th to the 12th century BCE when these relations became particularly intense. According to Bouzek, at that time one might speak of a koine (common market) in material culture between the Aegean, the Balkans, northern Italy and Central Europe. Here is also an approximate reconstruction of the aforementioned pan-European communication network based on the geographical distribution of archaeological objects that relate. The structure of this network is largely determined by natural pathways such as rivers and navigable coasts, as well as barriers such as mountain ranges and rugged coastlines.

In the case of weapons, we have examples of both Mycenaean and European origin. For instance, at least 23 rapiers and 42 swords of Mycenaean type have been found in the Balkans and in the Carpathian Basin, mostly dated to the Early Mycenaean period. There are also some (disputed) examples which possibly indicate analogies with Mycenaean forms and technologies from Central, Northern and Western Europe. These include the finds from Nürnberg-Hammer (Germany), Ajak (Hungary), Dollerup and Ørskovhede (Denmark), Adliswill (Switzerland), Saône (France), Surbo (Italy), Pelynt (Britain) and Spišský Štvrtok (Slovakia), most of which date from the 14th to 11th centuries BCE. As you might expect, a different group of weapons is represented by the Central European cut-and-thrust flange-hilted swords of the Naue II type that appeared in the Aegean at the end of the 13th and throughout the 12th century BCE. The earliest specimen come from Mycenae, Langada on Kos and Enkomi on Cyprus. In the beginning, Naue II swords occurred with Mycenaean counterpart swords. However, since Central European swords were more efficient in combat, they quickly replaced the Mycenaean types. Aegean craftsmen rapidly adopted Central European types of swords and began manufacturing them locally in modified forms. Naue II turned out to be so versatile that in the 12th and 11th centuries BCE it became the only type of sword used in Europe, the Aegean and the Near East. In total at least 50 swords of Naue II type have been found in the Aegean and around 29 in the Near East. Here is a more detailed distribution map of Naue II type swords. The isolines represent the average number of swords within a radius of 250km. The highest density (c. 180) occurs in Jutland. The dots represent one or more Naue II finds.

During the 13th and 12th centuries BCE, several flange-hilted Peschiera type daggers appeared in Mycenaean Greece as well, mostly on Crete. They originated in northern Italy and it seems that they were imitations of Mycenaean models. Peschiera daggers spread all over Europe, from the Carpathians to France and from Italy and the Balkans to Denmark. Their distribution can therefore be interpreted as an indication of a wider bronze working tradition embracing Central Europe, northern Italy and the Aegean. While none of the Aegean Peschiera daggers are datable by context, their European parallels belong to the 13th and 12th centuries BCE. Alongside swords and daggers, new spearheads of so-called "northern origin" appeared in the Aegean during the 13th and 12th centuries BCE. They were mostly found in the Argolid, Achaea, Attica, Epirus, on Crete, Kephalonia and Ithaca as well as in Boeotia, Corinthia, Phocis and Elis. In terms of shape, three main types of spearheads can be distinguished: A) lanceolate (geflammte), B) with a midrib (being a hybrid between lanceolate and leaf-shaped forms), and C) small leaf-shaped variants. Many of these spearheads came from burials and were associated with Naue II swords as well as with Mycenaean spears, which suggests that they belonged to the standardized equipment of the Late Bronze Age warriors.

You can read more about these in the two following papers. Much of the above i shared is cited in the second paper below.
https://www.academia.edu/21306979/The_Dissemination_of_Naue_II_swords_a_Case_Study_on_Long_distance_Mobility
https://www.academia.edu/26343962/The_Mycenaeans_and_Europe_Long_distance_networks_and_cross_cultural_communication

With all that said, it indeed seems that the most predominant clades of E-V13 in Greece are associated with central Europe and this cross-cultural communication phenomenon and it could have arrived around that LBA time, but that doesn't necessarily pertain to either an invasion or a mass migration. It could be a small number of mercenaries that chose to stay in Greece instead of returning back to their respective homes, as is suggested by the first paper above where it says, "There remains, then, the intriguing issue of how returning warriors/mercenaries changed their home societies, bringing back new ideas, innovations and, of course, material wealth. With reference to later historical parallels, such as the Celtic and Germanic mercenaries who, after their service had ended, returned home with Roman weapons and prestige goods, it seems justifiable to interpret finds of Greek armour in eastern Central Europe during the 14th to 12th century BC as similar evidence of warriors returning from Mycenaean service (where Central European and also Italian flange-hilted swords testify to their presence during the same period, cf. Jung and Mehofer 2008). Thus, the exceptional richness of the Danish burial mounds may have been more intimately linked with the political fate of the Aegean, and the societies of Bronze Age Europe more tightly connected, then is commonly acknowledged.". And of course this suggestion, doesn't pertain to the totality of Naue II sword presence in the Aegean, since as aforementioned it seems that the sword had been adopted as standardized equipment by the LBA/EIA warriors of the aforementioned regions, including the ones from the Aegean, either as imported goods or as locally manufactured modified versions.

Great summary.

TBH that type of sword looks awesome... And from the little research I did it was the apex bronze age sword in Europe.
If I was living at the time and had a need for a sword, would surely get one of those :embarassed:

But TBH the lack of a cross guard on the swords makes me think these types of swords were for quick engagements/skirmishes and piercing rather than any type of long blade to blade sparring. Would suck if you engage someone blade to blade, and the blade slides down your knuckles/fingers...

 

[ihype02]

Not in any decent peer reviewed PCA that has all possible populations.

Who are those in red triangles?

 

[Demetrios]

Who are those in red triangles?

That pertains to a collection of samples designated as "Sicilian2". I believe 4 of them are from Sicily though and 1 from Liguria.

 

[Demetrios]

Great summary.

TBH that type of sword looks awesome... And from the little research I did it was the apex bronze age sword in Europe.
If I was living at the time and had a need for a sword, would surely get one of those :embarassed:

But TBH the lack of a cross guard on the swords makes me think these types of swords were for quick engagements/skirmishes and piercing rather than any type of long blade to blade sparring. Would suck if you engage someone blade to blade, and the blade slides down your knuckles/fingers...

Thanks.

Personally i am very fond of the "kopis" type of blade, which is similar to the forward-curving blades of Iberian "falcata" and Nepalese/Indian "kukri", among others. Although not as ancient, "yatagans" are also very beautiful and efficient blades that could very likely be descendants of the former.

Some additional interesting information on Bronze Age weaponry and material culture you can find here, http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/index.htm. A great and very detailed website that also touches upon Sea Peoples and the Trojan War.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Thanks.

Personally i am very fond of the "kopis" type of blade, which is similar to the forward-curving blades of Iberian "falcata" and Nepalese/Indian "kukri", among others. Although not as ancient, "yatagans" are also very beautiful and efficient swords that could very likely be descendants of the former.

Some additional interesting information on Bronze Age weaponry and material culture you can find here, http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/index.htm. A great and very detailed website that also touches upon Sea Peoples and the Trojan War.

Looks like a nice weapon. Very interesting. A drawback would be its single edge nature I would assume. But anyways I think the one I mentioned was bronze age while this one is iron age, so technologically the kopis would be more advanced?
The kukri imo looks more similar to a sica.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sica

An interesting note, today the etymology in Albanian for knife / thikë/thika seems to come from this weapon. While the etymology for sword / shpatë / shpata seems to come from the Roman sword spatha : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha
Early version of the spatha resemble NAUE II while later ones differ with having a cross guard.

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Since we are going across time periods, I think technologically speaking as far as swords go Ottoman/Eastern ones were the most advanced for their time (barring maybe the Katana). However I am not a hopologist... so...

"The straight sword, which lies at the Museum of Ambras along with the helmet, is double-edged. The blade is dressed in gold. It is 85.5 centimeters long, 5.7 cm wide, and weighs 1.3 kilograms. Its scabbard is made of leather. According to Faik Konitza, who viewed the sword at the beginning of the 20th century, there were still stains of blood on the blade.On the other hand, the curved sword, including the hilt, measures 121 cm in length and weighs 3.2 kg. This sword is fashioned after Ottoman styles of the time, and just as Dhimiter Frengu reported five centuries earlier, is a damascene steel, highly ornamented. There is an inscription in Turkish, which according to Faik Konica is not correct. The inscription reads: (Libehadur Allah Iskander beg – Champion of God, Skanderbeg). Still, according to Faik Konica, only the blade belongs to the original sword held by Skanderbeg. The hilt, dressed in silver, and the velvet scabbard belong to a subsequent time. Both swords were reproduced in Vienna, for exclusive display in Tirana.
Of these two swords, the one which Skanderbeg used in times of war could have been the curved one. The straight sword was rather short for his tall frame, whereas the other one afforded the flexibility required for cavalry charges and the fighting style of the day. In addition, having been trained in Turkey, and having learned there his skills in martial arts, it is more likely that he would have been more comfortable with that sword."

IMO the curved sword would have been batter in battle:

Similar to Mehmed II sword for reference:

Now what I consider ironic or funny is that if my intuition is correct in the Vienna Museum they put the spotlight on the straight sword due to it being considered more European than the Ottoman blade that Skenderbeg used in battle...

But just compare this blade... to the presumed swords of the Islamic prophet some 700 years earlier:

https://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/swords/swords_index.html

Although I guess the Ottomans sword is also similar to a sword reportedly owned by the Prophet:

al-Mikhdham

[SIZE=-1]The sword called is reported to have passed from the prophet Muhammad to Ali b. Abi Talib, and from him to his sons. Some report that the sword was taken as booty by Ali b. Abi Talib from a raid he led in Syria.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The sword is now in the Topkpoki Museum, Istanbul. The blade is 97 cm in length and is inscribed with the name of Zayn al-Din al-Abidin. Photograph taken from Muhammad Hasan Muhammad al-Tihami, Suyuf al-Rasul wa 'uddah harbi-hi (Cairo: Hijr, 1312/1992)

[/SIZE]

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[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]


[/SIZE]​

As I said I am no hopologist, but based on the second part of this post I get the feeling that sometime after 6th century CE the east was ahead as far as sword design went. That is without even mentioning Damascus steel.

But as this thread explains the main difference is that curved blades are made to slash while straight blades are made to thrust. Why straight blades were preferred in Europe is due to heavy knights, you can't really slash through the armor. https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/109436/curved-vs-straight-swords

"The Dacians also win some battles against romans thanks to Dacian falx, hitting over roman shields. Romans then redesigned their helmet, and crushed the Dacians. It's a great exemple, as romans had straight short blades: there is no blade better than another, you just have to have a blade depending on the ennemy equipment."

"The debate about whether curved or straight swords are superior is as old as warfare itself.Cultures all throughout history have had different preferences. Generally the European cultures (Greeks, Romans, Medieval) preferred straight, while the Asian cultures (Mongols, Japanese, Saracenes...) preferred curved.
The main difference is that curved swords are better at slashing while straight swords are better at thrusting. This is mostly relevant if you are fighting enemies who wear armor. If the enemy is wearing chainmail or plate armor, then slashing attacks are unlikely to hurt them. You then want a straight sword which allows you to do a thrusting attack which breaks through their armor.
Straight swords also give you more range for the same weight. This is useful for fighting in close formations where every cm of range counts. That's why traditional close formation armies (like the Roman legion) used straight swords."



However it should be noted that neither a straight nor a curved blade was effective against knights in full armor...

However plate armor knights, were the medieval equivalent of tanks... Very expensive and very few compared to non armored/chain mail infantry...
From reading on the 100 year war some time ago, I noticed that a lot of noble knights did not die in battle... they were rather surrounded and captured, and later ransomed for gold or prisoners.

PS: To mods that might read this:

I wanted to reply to the comment and got sidetracked... I know this is not the right thread, so feel free to move this reply/ short discussion to the appropriate thread. Sorry for the derailment

 

[Demetrios]

But anyways I think the one I mentioned was bronze age while this one is iron age, so technologically the kopis would be more advanced?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sica

An interesting note, today the etymology in Albanian for knife / thikë/thika seems to come from this weapon. While the etymology for sword / shpatë / shpata seems to come from the Roman sword spatha : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha
Early version of the spatha resemble NAUE II while later ones differ with having a cross guard.

Yeah, "kopis" is an Iron Age blade. I was speaking in general in terms of favorites. Nonetheless, several curved one-edge swords have also been found in the Mycenaean civilization, just like the following examples.

They consist of one solid piece of bronze, and measure from 66 cm to 74 cm in length. The handle is too thick to have been covered with wood, and must have been used as it is. The end of it forms a ring, by which the sword was probably suspended to the shoulder-belt or to the girdle. Indeed this ring could have been also used to hold some kind of fringed decoration. As these short one-edge swords are, properly speaking nothing else than long knives, they must primitively have been used chiefly for slaughtering animals and killing in close combat.

"Thikë" reminds me of the Greek word for sword sheath, namely "θήκη/thḗkē (ancient Greek)/thiki (modern Greek)"; could be related. As for "shpatë", https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shpat%C3%AB, it could instead be a direct loan from Greek, namely σπάθη/spáthē (ancient Greek)/spathi (modern Greek), as the Latin term also is, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha#Etymology. Furthermore, in the Byzantine Army we had the classes of "Spatharios", "Protospatharios", "Spatharokandidatos" and "Spatharokoubikoularios", which all pertain to spatha-bearers.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Yeah, "kopis" is an Iron Age blade. I was speaking in general in terms of favorites. Nonetheless, several curved one-edge swords have also been found in the Mycenaean civilization, just like the following examples.

They consist of one solid piece of bronze , and measure from 66 cm to 74 cm in length. The handle is too thick to have been covered with wood, and must have been used as it is. The end of it forms a ring, by which the sword was probably suspended to the shoulder-belt or to the girdle. Indeed this ring could have been also used to hold some kind of fringed decoration. As these short one-edge swords are, properly speaking nothing else than long knives, they must primitively have been used chiefly for slaughtering animals and killing in close combat.

"Thikë" reminds me of the Greek word for sword sheath, namely "θήκη/thḗkē (ancient Greek)/thiki (modern Greek)"; could be related. As for "shpatë", https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shpatë, it could instead be a direct loan from Greek, namely σπάθη/spáthē (ancient Greek)/spathi (modern Greek), as the Latin term also is, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha#Etymology. Furthermore, in the Byzantine Army we had the classes of "Spatharios", "Protospatharios", "Spatharokandidatos" and "Spatharokoubikoularios", which all pertain to spatha-bearers.

Yep.

[h=2]History and Etymology for spade[/h]Noun (1)
Middle English, going back to Old English spadu, spædu, spade (plural spadan), going back to Germanic *spaðōn- (whence also Old Saxon spado "digging implement, spade," Old Frisian spada, early Modern German Spaten, Icelandic spaði), akin to Greek spáthē "any of various blade-like implements or objects," both going back to Indo-European *sph2-dh-, perhaps a suffixed derivative of the verbal base *speh2- "draw, pull out"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spade

Considering that even Icelanders have this root I would suspect it is very old.
Remember reading a Luwian dictionary and seeing some form of sparta---, which was a verb to decimate/destroy or something similar. Was years ago so don't quote me on this. But I remember since reading that I wondered if that early IE root had anything to do with the name given to Sparta. I mean the Luwian glossary word that had sparta---- as a root and its translation made total sense semantically with both Sparta and the above PIE root.

I mean from Sanskrit to Icelandic we find this root having similar meaning.

https://www.academia.edu/33538549/2500_PIE_ROOTS_DECIPHERED_THE_SOURCE_CODE_2_5
[h=4]2500 PIE ROOTS DECIPHERED (THE SOURCE CODE 2.5[/h]
Fernando Villamor

 

[Demetrios]

Yep.

History and Etymology for spade

Noun (1)
Middle English, going back to Old English spadu, spædu, spade (plural spadan), going back to Germanic *spaðōn- (whence also Old Saxon spado "digging implement, spade," Old Frisian spada, early Modern German Spaten, Icelandic spaði), akin to Greek spáthē "any of various blade-like implements or objects," both going back to Indo-European *sph2-dh-, perhaps a suffixed derivative of the verbal base *speh2- "draw, pull out"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spade

Considering that even Icelanders have this root I would suspect it is very old.
Remember reading a Luwian dictionary and seeing some form of sparta---, which was a verb to decimate/destroy or something similar. Was years ago so don't quote me on this. But I remember since reading that I wondered if that early IE root had anything to do with the name given to Sparta. I mean the Luwian glossary word that had sparta---- as a root and its translation made total sense semantically with both Sparta and the above PIE root.

I mean from Sanskrit to Icelandic we find this root having similar meaning.

https://www.academia.edu/33538549/2500_PIE_ROOTS_DECIPHERED_THE_SOURCE_CODE_2_5
2500 PIE ROOTS DECIPHERED (THE SOURCE CODE 2.5


Fernando Villamor

A common IE origin can never be excluded. It's always a possibility.

As for the Luwian term, i can't recall any such word. If you have some time can you try and find it again? The only similar word that comes to mind from the Greek dictionary is the verb "σπαρταρώ/spartaro" (of IE etymology), which translates as shaking/jumping in a spasmodic way. We use it specifically for the movements of fish when they are out of the water and in the process of dying. Sparta (namely the prominent settlement of Lacedaemonians) has another prominent etymology which associates it with "σπάρτον/spárton", translating as rope or cable, and a reference to the cords laid as the city's foundation boundaries. It's also of IE etymology from the PIE root *sper- (to twist). Although this is an uncertain etymology.

 

[Archetype0ne]

A common IE origin can never be excluded. It's always a possibility.

As for the Luwian term, i can't recall any such word. If you have some time can you try and find it again? The only similar word that comes to mind from the Greek dictionary is the verb "σπαρταρώ/spartaro" (of IE etymology), which translates as shaking/jumping in a spasmodic way. We use it specifically for the movements of fish when they are out of the water and in the process of dying. Sparta (namely the prominent settlement of Lacedaemonians) has another prominent etymology which associates it with "σπάρτον/spárton", translating as rope or cable, and a reference to the cords laid as the city's foundation boundaries. It's also of IE etymology from the PIE root *sper- (to twist). Although this is an uncertain etymology.

You are right the word was similar to spartaro which as you said has a meaning in Greek of shaking/jumping/spasmic movement, which IMO has a similar semantic meaning to *sper - twist.

Here is what I suspect to be an Albanian isogloss with similar semantics. I think "scatter" best describes it. But it can be used as destroy, shatter etc.

"Sharp" connection:

ši(æ)wal- 'stiletto' (or sim.) < *'sharpness'N-ASg ši-wa-al: XLIV 4+ Vo 26.še-æu-wa-a-al: 145 iii 18*.19.Form? ši-wa-la-za-an: XLIV 4+ Vo 28 (error for Hitt. erg. ši-wa-la-anza?).Gram. analysis of last example uncertain due to corrupted text.Cf. Beckman, StBoT 29.196f. Nominal deriv. of preceding.Cf. ādduwal- to ādduwa- 'evil'. Implausible interp. & etym.by Starke, KZ 95.152ff. Cf. also perh. 144,2*.__________________________________________________________

*ši(æ)wa- 'bitter, sour, sharp'N-APl še-e-wa: KBo XIII 260 iii 11 (subst.).Sense with Starke, KZ 100.25026, but this is base of ši(æ)way(a)-, not contraction thereof.

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Unidentified connection:

šapartara- '?'NPl ša-pár-ta-ra-an-zi: 108,4*; 143,9*; 145 ii 1.APl ša-pár-ta-ra-an-za: 145 ii 14.

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˚šapp(a)- 'peel'Pret3Sg ˚ša-ap-pa-at-ta: VIII 50 iii 16.Also in Hitt. (aræa) šappāizzi at XLIV 63 ii 11. Cf. real Hitt.cognate (aræa) šippā(i)- at XXIX 7 Vo 31.32. No conn. toHitt. šapp(a)- 'churn' (CHD 3.172 sub makkuya-) nor šapziat XXV 36 i 13.v 13.25, nor šapiya(i)- below.

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Somewhere around page 190-200 for words that start with s... sadly could not find the one I was looking for since I did not have time to look through all 300 pages.

Tried searching keyword destroy in the glossary:

zapp(a)- '?' (a destructive action)Pres2Sg za-ap-pa-aš-ši: 15 ii(!) 5.Pret3Sg za-ap-pa-at-ta: 54 ii 38; 72,9*; KBo XXII 137 iii 9.Pret3Pl za-ap-pu-un-ta: 68,10*.11(?).Last example of zappatta could be pret. 2nd sg. instead.Assignment of pret. 3rd pl. here not certain but very likely.Cf. also frag. zap[ ] at KBo VIII 129 i 14.19.20.

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šakaldamman- 'harm, destruction' (or sim.)N-APl ša-kal-da-am-ma: 108,19.See Starke, StBoT 31.276f.

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˚papartamman- '?'N-APlNt ˚pa-pa-ar-ta-ma: XLIV 4+ Vo 31.As per Starke, StBoT 31.276, partitive apposition to Ishtar.Parallels suggest that the word refers to a destructive act.

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(˚)æašpa- 'destroy'Pres3Sg ˚æa-aš-pa-ti: KBo XVI 22 Ro 9 (+ aræa!).Pret1Sg ˚æa-aš-pa-æa: XIV 3 i 41.For Hitt. forms see Puhvel, HED 3.232f


Abbreviations of grammatical categories are of the standard sort. C =Common (Animate) Gender. Please note that I use Abs(olute) merely as aconvenient label for instances of an uninflected stem, without intending any claimfor an "absolute case" as a grammatical category. Note the use of the followingsymbols:
* marks a cited word as incomplete.
e indicates that the word as read is emended.
? marks any doubtful reading or interpretation.
< > to be added to the manuscript.
<< >> to be deleted from the manuscript.
= in phonological transcription marks morpheme boundary.



https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf

Harold Craig Melchert (born April 5, 1945) is an American linguist known particularly for his work on the Anatolian branch of Indo-European.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_MelchertNow I am no linguist. Plus who knows how many sounds/reading rules changed in 4k years for Luwian. On top of that Luwian is quite understudied and not really a known quantity, with more questions than answers, from deciphering the script to other inconsistencies.
For all I know this could all be coincidence.