Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

What the Fallmerayer people would have to argue now is that nearly 100% of Anatolia Neolithic in modern Greeks is a proxy for ancient Greeks, brought by foreign invaders and settlers who substantially resembled them—a nearly complete replacement by substantially similar people. That seems improbable for at least two reasons: Greek population size in the region and language/culture continuity.

Lazaridis et al argue for continuity, not declare it as indisputable and final. In science the door is open to refutation. We still have big gaps in our knowledge, such as the genetic makeup of pre-Slavic Byzantine Greeks. If they had very little Steppe ancestry, it may mean the Slavic input was greater.

It’s also fair to question if some non-Greeks in the southern Balkans have ancient Greek ancestry, based on the number of historical Greek settlements.
 
With respect to the Fallmayer theories it points out the pitfalls of depending on ancient and some medieval authors. What I would like is ancient tax records from the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires that list the number of settlers that were moved to an area to repopulate it and census records before and after.
 
Here is a dna paper who extriminate fallmayer theory :)
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

Those are all theoretical models, there is no smoking gun.


The paper is not really so credible

"The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%. Therefore, the Peloponneseans are genetically much more distinct from the Slavic populations and are much more similar to Southern European populations."

In any case it minimizes the supposed Slavic contribution

"
the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%."
 
Those are all theoretical models, there is no smoking gun.
The paper is not really so credible
"The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%. Therefore, the Peloponneseans are genetically much more distinct from the Slavic populations and are much more similar to Southern European populations."
In any case it minimizes the supposed Slavic contribution
"
the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%."

Well his theory is that modern greek people in south peloponnesea
Are slavic tribes who are hellenized later by orthodox church ....
Next to him davidski sound logic ....:LOL:
 
He is not saying they left no trace, he is saying they are heavily Slavic, combined with recent-Cypriots, which is preposterous.


Why? It is a theory promoted by them, so I think it is salient to the conversation. The Fallmerayer theory was promoted by Nazis to abuse Greeks for apparent Slavic admixture, it is a fact.


It wasn't just Greeks, but other Slavs and Slav-mixed people in the Balkans were brutally murdered by Nazis, because they were considered sub-human.

Don't you remember that HUGE migration from Cyprus to Greece??? Were you sleeping during history class???:grin:

You know what the answer always is, right? It was all those TURKISH AND LEVANTINE admixed "Greeks" who came in the exchange!!!:LOL:

Pity there's a HUGE problem with that, which no matter how many times I've personally brought it up is conveniently forgotten. The paper on the Peloponnese by used VERY carefully chosen samples only from people who were very elderly and whose four grandparents from the area would therefore have been alive BEFORE the exchanges.:rolleyes:

WHEN are people going to stop assuming some samples from Thessaly represent ALL mainland Greeks?

As for that comment by Polako in 2017, he thought all Southern Italians (for Northern Italians for that matter) would break out crying when they discovered they have a significant amount of Anatolian Bronze Age. That tells you a lot more about HIS attitudes toward Anatolian Bronze and Anatolian Neolithic for that matter than it says about ITALIAN attitudes. Why do some people assume everyone looks at the world the way that they do?

He also apparently doesn't know that the SLAVIC input into Greeks was considered by the Nazis to make them subhuman. Still thinks it was a good idea for some Poles to have joined battalions which fought for the Nazis. No accounting for some people's values or how they're able to reconcile seemingly contradictory facts.

Oh, since you don't seem to know, the Nazis are a sensitive subject in the Balkans since so many Balkan countries cooperated with, and fought with them. I don't get it. Italians are deeply ashamed of their alliance with Hitler, and express it at every opportunity. That's one reason why they lionize the partisans. Maybe it's different in the Balkans? I really don't know enough about the topic to express an opinion.


Wow, I see you have a new moderator on board. That's good; now I don't feel badly about being around so seldom. :)
 
Well angela ...
Some south slavs from balkan cooperated with
The nazis ( croatians, bosnians) so sometimes history
Is not balck or white but rather grey
Infact me as a jewish know well enough
That even the nazis were amazed by the brutality of the ustache in croatia and bosnia
Thwords jews and also serbs ...
They built extrimination camp for god sake....🤨

P.s
But i am off topic sorry 🤔
 
How any individual felt years ago, or today, is irrelevant.

If we are discussing the possibility of Greek continuity since BA, modern closeness with samples recently arrived from the Steppe (or related to others who had), especially considering that the modeling requires an extra Steppe-related component, suggests that modern Greeks have significantly more Steppe ancestry than LBA Greeks, and very likely even more so than the Ancient Greeks of IA, Classical Antiquity and Roman period.

What population brought this important component is yet to be discovered, but Slavs are among the main candidates.
 
Don't you remember that HUGE migration from Cyprus to Greece??? Were you sleeping during history class???:grin:

You know what the answer always is, right? It was all those TURKISH AND LEVANTINE admixed "Greeks" who came in the exchange!!!:LOL:

Pity there's a HUGE problem with that, which no matter how many times I've personally brought it up is conveniently forgotten. The paper on the Peloponnese by used VERY carefully chosen samples only from people who were very elderly and whose four grandparents from the area would therefore have been alive BEFORE the exchanges.:rolleyes:

WHEN are people going to stop assuming some samples from Thessaly represent ALL mainland Greeks?

As for that comment by Polako in 2017, he thought all Southern Italians (for Northern Italians for that matter) would break out crying when they discovered they have a significant amount of Anatolian Bronze Age. That tells you a lot more about HIS attitudes toward Anatolian Bronze and Anatolian Neolithic for that matter than it says about ITALIAN attitudes. Why do some people assume everyone looks at the world the way that they do?

He also apparently doesn't know that the SLAVIC input into Greeks was considered by the Nazis to make them subhuman. Still thinks it was a good idea for some Poles to have joined battalions which fought for the Nazis. No accounting for some people's values or how they're able to reconcile seemingly contradictory facts.

Oh, since you don't seem to know, the Nazis are a sensitive subject in the Balkans since so many Balkan countries cooperated with, and fought with them. I don't get it. Italians are deeply ashamed of their alliance with Hitler, and express it at every opportunity. That's one reason why they lionize the partisans. Maybe it's different in the Balkans? I really don't know enough about the topic to express an opinion.


Wow, I see you have a new moderator on board. That's good; now I don't feel badly about being around so seldom. :)

The history tell us that the war with Greece was started by Italians without Nazi approval, from that time Albania is still at war with Greece even though we were invaded ourselves. Nazis came to help the Italians that were being beaten by the Greek Army in the mountains of Epirus. These are old stories, and are not relevant at all to this topic. A criminal might use whatever pretext to justify its slaughter, that does not make what Fallmayer said wrong. A criminal that reads your posts here might use your ideas as a justification for a crime, can that make what you said right or wrong? In my modest understanding it is to early to jump to conclusions without more samples from every historical period. Personally I expect continuity but with major Slavic contribution. It will illogical to think that Slavic tribes stoped at the Greek borders for some reason and did not advance further.


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Well angela ...
Some south slavs from balkan cooperated with
The nazis ( croatians, bosnians) so sometimes history
Is not balck or white but rather grey
Infact me as a jewish know well enough
That even the nazis were amazed by the brutality of the ustache in croatia and bosnia
Thwords jews and also serbs ...
They built extrimination camp for god sake....🤨

P.s
But i am off topic sorry [emoji848]

You are right, in Albania for example, the pro nazi Albanian government was instrumental in saving the Jewish community.


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I could be out of the loop here, but I don't recall a lot of "subhuman" treatment of Greeks and Balkanites by the Nazis (at least greater than other invaded countries). Anybody have sources on this? Greeks were actually admired, I believe, for their ability to defend themselves (and crushing the initial Italian invaders in short order). I remember skimming through a copy of a "manual" of sorts the Nazi troops were given about the Balkan people where it explicitly states "The modern Greeks have roots in ancient Greece." Sure Hitler hated Slavs, but Many Balkanites collaborated with Nazis. There was even a Muslim Albanian division.

I've also heard from not-untrustworthy sources that Greeks of "good stock" (more often women) were actually taken for creepy breeding programs.
 
^ You are right Hilter considered Greeks as Aryan but below Germans like Aryan class B.
 
You are right, in Albania for example, the pro nazi Albanian government was instrumental in saving the Jewish community.


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Since we are talking about this, and its not considered off topic might as well.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/alban...-memorial-honoring-locals-who-protected-jews/

Albania, only country with more Jews after the Holocaust, inaugurates memorial


Not that Albania had many Jews before the war, but still it was the only country with more Jews after than before the War in Europe.


 
Those are all theoretical models, there is no smoking gun.
The paper is not really so credible
"The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%. Therefore, the Peloponneseans are genetically much more distinct from the Slavic populations and are much more similar to Southern European populations."
In any case it minimizes the supposed Slavic contribution
"
the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%."

Thanks for pointing out those figures. Perhaps some people should consider reading papers on the topic, instead of giving personal opinions based on assumptions.
 
^ You are right Hilter considered Greeks as Aryan but below Germans like Aryan class B.

Purely political, and strategic. Just like their alliance with Japanese, the "honorary Aryans". Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.

[FONT=&quot]This book was born of a surprising discovery: some preliminary research on youth movements and the idea of Europe led me to the speeches of Alfred Rosenberg, in which he claimed that the Greeks were a Northern people. As it turns out, this curious textual artifact merely repeated the canonical work of National Socialist doctrine: Hitler wrote in [/FONT]Mein Kampf[FONT=&quot]that there was a “racial unity” ([/FONT]Rasse-Einheit[FONT=&quot]) that linked Greeks, Romans, and Germans, and that these three peoples were united in fighting the same millenarian war...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The primary effect of this new rhetoric on racial origins, a reimagining of the old Aryan myth, was to draw Greece and Rome into the orbit of the Nordic race and its civilization. The Nordicism of the Greeks and Romans was confirmed by historians and racial scientists and publicized in a number of ways, not all of them scholarly. This rhetoric was also adopted by the regime’s political leaders, to a surprising degree—surprising, that is, for the level of interest they displayed in a seemingly abstract, academic subject. Yet this issue assumed a singular importance for the Nazi leadership,...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/j.ctt1f5g5m8
 
We are not trying to minimize slavic genetic input but it is what it is, 10-15% average genetic input is huge for a country. I do not see dinaric phenotypes among the Greeks but then I have not visited Veria lately.
 
Purely political, and strategic. Just like their alliance with Japanese, the "honorary Aryans". Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.

“Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.” Using you logic for Falmerajer, Can we say that if the Nazis say this, is wrong?


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“Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.” Using you logic for Falmerajer, Can we say that if the Nazis say this, is wrong?


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No, the Nazis believed the Ancient Greeks were Nordic, and were racially degenerated by Slavs and Avars according to their adoption of the Fallmerayer Theory. Which was taught to Nazi officers in the Axis occupation of Greece.
 
The reality is, the Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans, and the later Greeks are still Southern Europeans, augmented by some degree Slavic admixture. Some a bit more than others.

Both are southern Europeans of course, and fairly similar, but the question is how much of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from Ancient Greeks. The answer is not known, but it should be considerably lower than the models we have seen so far.
 
Both are southern Europeans of course, and fairly similar, but the question is how much of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from Ancient Greeks. The answer is not known, but it should be considerably lower than the models we have seen so far.

Why is that so?
 

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