Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[bicicleur 2]

Χατζηπαναγής (Chatzipanagis), the former footballer of the first picture, was born in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, from GreekCypriot political refugees from Amochostos. So, genetically he is a GreekCypriot and to be honest, he looks so. He doesn't look Gypsy to me.

the last one is a question,
I do not know if the hair make it simmilar or it is nearby-looking with reconstructed Mycenean,
the first one is a famous footballer and his look is common in many parts of Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasilis_Hatzipanagis

Ammochostos was build By Makedonian Ptolemaians.

he does not seem to be the archetype of the Greek football player

the 2004 team was very famous

so you will understand that here in Belgium we will not reckognize him as a typical Greek

 

[LATGAL]

The potentially Illyrian connection of the Hylleis that Cato brought up has been made quite a bit, especially by older linguists and historians though some of the arguments definitely seem a bit shaky in hindsight and made in an environment of 'Illyromania' that was common during that time. But either way, from what I've seen, it's quite possible that Greek and Albanian (a likely descendant of Illyrian) had early contacts together judging by shared isoglosses. And you can refer to other theories about late Indo-European continua in the area (see Andrew Garrett) or connections of southern Greece to Cetina etc.

On the other hand, as mentioned, Greek also shares a lot of isoglosses with Indo-Iranian and you also have a whole host of languages (Phrygian-Thracian-Dacian-Cimmerian) that occupied an area from northeast Greece (or even northwest Greece and Illyria in the case of some 'Brygian' remnants) to the Ukraine, some of which seem to have moved to Anatolia from the Balkans that might have had affinities more with one than the other. And you even have linguistic theories of pre-Greek IE (alongside the pre-Greek non-IE) or even the hypothesized by a couple of archaeologists Indo-Iranian affinities for the elite Myceneans (who would have post-dated the Greek speakers and been the result of a temporary takeover that assimilated fast in that scenario). Some of these are more likely than the others, of course, but it'd be nice to start conclusively rejecting some theories and all of these are basically still in play as far as genetic data are concerned I'd say.

Ultimately if the Bronze Age Balkans and Greece are sampled better, it'll be easier to point towards the Northeast or Northwest or what sort of in-between process might have lead to the historical language since I think contacts with both areas can be supported linguistically and archaeologically. For the time being we only have a potentially post-Neolithic Anatolian connection that increased CHG (which is archaeologically supported too; but Crete did already have a small Neolithic population and we don't know what that looked like) and one that increased EHG either via the Balkans (more likely imo) or via Anatolia. Good results since they confirmed some already-held expectations (separate increase of CHG in southeast Europe during that period and steppe admixture in the IE speakers) but very early to be even close to coming to conclusions about more complicated issues. Need the Rs and much better spatiotemporal coverage for sure.

 

[Yetos]

he does not seem to be the archetype of the Greek football player

the 2004 team was very famous

so you will understand that here in Belgium we will not reckognize him as a typical Greek

the captain of 2004

the same person,

as you see action changes faces,

but I said that the reconstructed Mycenean is not unusual in modern Greece,
not is typical in modern greece.

another one βαμβακουλας

without hair

as for Roma

do you believe that he is Roma?

 

[blevins13]

Further studies will clarify all this....


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[IronSide]

I think this thread is on its way to achieving immortality.

 

[Jovialis]

This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.

This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.

@ihype02

What does this have to do with what Raphieboy said? Or what the dna samples are telling us? What is not so?

These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

EDIT:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33711-Genetics-of-the-Greek-Peleponessus/page19?p=516965&viewfull=1#post516965

 

[davef]

Yetos:
"but I said that the reconstructed Mycenean is not unusual in modern Greece"
You are absolutely right! Most if not all of the Greeks in the pics you posted have a strong resemblance to the griffin warrior...some look close enough to him to be practically twins.

 

[Diomedes]

This thread will become one of the best. I can guarantee it. People are always curious about the origin of Ancient Greeks.

I think this thread is on its way to achieving immortality.

 

[Tomenable]

What do you think about these results?:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ncient-samples?p=517212&viewfull=1#post517212

 

[Azzurro]

Very good and interesting paper, hopefully many more to come from the Ancient Greek world!

 

[bicicleur 2]

as for Roma

do you believe that he is Roma?

I'm not sure, but yes I would think so, it is possible.

 

[Azzurro]

Great! Just as Azzurro and I had predicted! J1-Z1828 and J2a1-M319.

G2a-CTS946 is G2a-P303, so typically Anatolian, be it from the Neolithic or Bronze Age. It's not possible to determine if it's a Neolithic remnant or a newcomer.

Indeed! It feels good that our predictions were right, from a autosomal and Y relation perspective we are starting to see a correlation between J1 and J2 and the incoming of an Iran/Armenian/South Caucasus/Mesopotamian like admixture and it seems to be more male dominated similarly to R1b and R1a coming out of the Pontic Steppe. Like you said in an earlier post it is too bad that there were only a few samples as with more we might see the other predicted haplogroups from Kura Araxes Expansion. It also seems that Kura Araxes and potential Ubaid/Uruk expansion would have been autosomally very similar suggesting that J1 and J2 would have came from an earlier culture, very good candidate would be the Halaf Culture which both influenced the Shulaveru-Shomu Culture (predecessor of the the Kura Araxes Culture) and the Ubaid Culture. The predicted J2a1 and J1-Z1828 went to the Southern Caucasus and J1-P58 and J2b-M205 went to Ubaid Culture, with some of each in between, and T would have probably been there as well, with T-P77 heading to the Southern Caucasus. Also very good to see J2a appear the Mycenaeans.

 

[davef]

I'm not sure, but yes I would think so, it is possible.

To me, it seems the griffin warrior stepped into a time machine and is now a pro soccer player.

 

[Boss]

To me, it seems the griffin warrior stepped into a time machine and is now a pro soccer player.

None of those faces are particularly Greek looking, least of all the complexion - wtf?

I am not sure why suddenly, just 'cos of the pic of the alleged Mycenaean warrior, Greek nationalists on here want to claim that Patsatzoglu's face is "typical" Greek. It isn't, he does look a bit off and the Belgian dude on this thread, ironically, is right. This is not to say he looks Scandinavian ofc but I'd definitely not think he was Greek just from looking that one pic if I didn't know that already.

But hey, all for the glory of trying to "prove" you're "Mycenaean".

 

[LATGAL]

want to claim that Patsatzoglu's face is "typical" Greek

I don't think that was Yetos's point (though I'm not sure what it exactly was either way) since Patsatzoglou has Roma origins anyway. But you're certainly right about the subjective interpretation of averages, what is typical or what resembles another not being particularly informative.

 

[Boss]

I don't think that was Yetos's point (though I'm not sure what it exactly was either way) since Patsatzoglou has Roma origins anyway. But you're certainly right about the subjective interpretation of averages, what is typical or what resembles another not being particularly informative.

I don't either, I am not sure I have a strong grasp of Yetos's arcane way of typing.

It seemed to me that he was saying that the Greek Mycenaean warrior pic represents a somewhat common phenotype among Greeks. Maybe it does but as far as I am concerned, I'd think he, the alleged Mycenaean, was native American or something close to that. But I'd definitely not go "oh yeah that's a Greek right there. I saw a smilar-looking one eating bougatsa with Yetos yesterday."

 

[Dionysus1900]

There is something I don't understand in the admixture analysis from the paper. Modern Greeks from Thessaloniki are shown as having 20% of red EHG, 20% of pink CHG, 59% of blue ENF and 1% of dark green Natufian, but they completely lack the purple admixture that makes up 35-100% of Neolithic Greeks, 15-30% of Minoans and 25-45% of Mycenaeans. It's also missing from other modern Greeks and Cypriots. What happened to that admixture? It couldn't simply have vanished like that. Is that because they didn't re-run those samples using the same K17 parameters? If so that would be highly unprofessional of them for a published peer-reviewed paper. If not, that raises a lot of questions.
I also disagree with Lazaridis and al. when they say that "Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry". Mycenaeans are much closer to the Minoans than to Modern Greeks. Modern Greeks have 3x more EHG (about 20%) than Mycenaeans (7%), but they also have WHG (3% according to D-stat). This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA. Since obviously no invader to Greece were pure EHG, and none had more than 50% of EHG in average (30-35% might be more realistic as the Romans had comparatively low EHG), to increase from 7% to 20% of EHG, the percentage of post-Mycenaean DNA from European invaders must be comprised between 25% and 40%. Most of it will be blue ENF and pink CHG that won't be identifiable using these relatively simple admixtures. What we see is only the clear increase in EHG, which is only one third to half of the new invaders' DNA.
In other words modern Greeks are nothing like Mycenaean Greeks, and even less Minoan Greeks. Modern Greeks have much more European ancestry. Y-DNA alone suggests 40 to 45% of European lineages (as opposed to Near Eastern), and over 60% if we included E-V13 (E1b1b came from the Near East but E-V13 clearly emerged in Europe). Greeks possess lineages that are clearly Germanic (3.5% of I1, so about 10% of Germanic overall with I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and R1a-L664), Slavic (11% of R1a, which is overwhelmingly M458 and CTS1211) and Italo-Celtic (about 7% of R1b-U152 and 1% of G2a-L497).

Indeed, very interesting.

 

[Alan]

It is what it is: whatever yDna the new group that moved into Greece carried, the impact was slight. The analysis in the Supplement is more than excellent, including a new statistical tool that hasn't even been formally released yet, but will soon make its way into Admixtools, I'm sure. The data was analyzed in every possible way. It has to be read carefully. The "steppe" impact was 4-16% or 13-18% depending on the method used. That makes sense because wherever the origin, there would have been dilution all along the way.

The modern Greeks have steppe ancestry of about 20%, and that's in more northern areas. What huge impact did the Slavs have? How does this invalidate the argument for continuity?

Surely we don't have to go over again how yDna is not a reliable predictor of total ancestry? Nor should we have to keep saying again and again that without ancient dna it's all just speculation.

As I elaborated upon above, the impact of the steppe people is going to be very different when encountering a densely populated, culturally advanced area than when reaching large un-or-depopulated areas.

.

^ This as I wrote quite some time ago. I have been reading quite allot of times that in ancient sources Mycenaens have been described to have expanded in oversizing the local numbers.

About the West Iranic tribes , aka proto Medes it is said by ancient Near Eastern sources. That they were normal herders/farmers who came in search for new grasslands. But they were known and respected as the best horse-breeders of the region.

The main reason why parts of North/Northeast Europe have more Steppe admixture is basically because these region were less populated. The further South you went (starting from the Bell Beaker regions) the admixture became lower to only ~15% among Mycenaens.

They must have brought advantage to some regions such as the Mitanni/Medes with their horse-breeding skills and their well equipped charriots. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to establish themselves in already settled cultures. But Elite Dominance inspite of findings of yDNA J, G in Mycenaens, Zoroastrians and Sarmatians?

Maybe in sparsely populated areas of Northeast Europe yes. But in the South it looked more like a blend of two meeting cultures.

 

[curiouscat]

This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.

 

[Jovialis]

This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmXVwEWLwm0

http://faces.cs.princeton.edu/

Also, using photographs as archetypes of ethnicity or race is not reliable due to lighting and perspective distortion.

It's fun to guess ethnicity, and stuff; but it's by no means scientific or accurate based on the photo.