Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

No, the Nazis believed the Ancient Greeks were Nordic, and were racially degenerated by Slavs and Avars according to their adoption of the Fallmerayer Theory. Which was taught to Nazi officers in the Axis occupation of Greece.

So did The Greeks came from north as the Nazi has promoted or not? Or did they come from Anatolia? What is your position?


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So did The Greeks came from north as the Nazi has promoted or not? Or did they come from Anatolia? What is your position?


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Even if the Northern model is correct, it doesn't mean they were Nordic. It also doesn't mean they had a ton of steppe ancestry, by the time they got there.

I think the Northern model is possible, as there are links to Catacomb culture and Mycenaeans. But as it stands, it is currently unresolved.
 
Why is that so?

Because, as I explained above, the model from the last paper shows modern mainland Greeks are most similar to MBA samples with recently arrived Steppe-related ancestry, but moderns have even higher Steppe-related %. Periods following MBA will very likely have diluted Steppe-like ancestry as the MBA populations were gradually absorbed by Anatolia and Iran ancestry peoples of the Aegean. You can already notice this in LBA Myceneans, which of course are not as similar to modern Greeks as those MBA samples, and this genetic homogenization will have continued through the IA (maybe somewhat mirroring the cultural one). So the difference in Steppe-like ancestry between modern mainland Greeks and Ancient mainland Greeks is likely greater than that between modern Greeks and Myceneans, and far greater than that between modern mainland Greeks and the MBA samples presented in the latest models.

The islands may be a different story.
 
Both are southern Europeans of course, and fairly similar, but the question is how much of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from Ancient Greeks. The answer is not known, but it should be considerably lower than the models we have seen so far.

The answer well known, if you read genetics, especially from the side of Matriarchical side.
 
So did The Greeks came from north as the Nazi has promoted or not? Or did they come from Anatolia? What is your position?


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you already know the answer, it is provited many times in Forum.
 
Because, as I explained above, the model from the last paper shows modern mainland Greeks are most similar to MBA samples with recently arrived Steppe-related ancestry, but moderns have even higher Steppe-related %. Periods following MBA will very likely have diluted Steppe-like ancestry as the MBA populations were gradually absorbed by Anatolia and Iran ancestry peoples of the Aegean. You can already notice this in LBA Myceneans, which of course are not as similar to modern Greeks as those MBA samples, and this genetic homogenization will have continued through the IA (maybe somewhat mirroring the cultural one). So the difference in Steppe-like ancestry between modern mainland Greeks and Ancient mainland Greeks is likely greater than that between modern Greeks and Myceneans, and far greater than that between modern mainland Greeks and the MBA samples presented in the latest models.

The islands may be a different story.

your answer is obvious, here,


map-of-cycladic-minoan-mycenaean-cultures.jpg



260px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png
 
Even if the Northern model is correct, it doesn't mean they were Nordic. It also doesn't mean they had a ton of steppe ancestry, by the time they got there.

I think the Northern model is possible, as there are links to Catacomb culture and Mycenaeans. But as it stands, it is currently unresolved.

It is a plausible option, the problem is that the link with Armenian is not quite clear in the Northern model of Greeks.


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you already know the answer, it is provited many times in Forum.

Since was promoted by Nazis, I thought maybe there was a change of hearts. I know your position. Your activity has diminished, how come?


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The reality is, the Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans, and the later Greeks are still Southern Europeans, augmented by some degree Slavic admixture. Some a bit more than others.


yes probably greeks from thessaly and macedonia should have more slavic admixture
than greeks from peloponnese
 
We are not trying to minimize slavic genetic input but it is what it is, 10-15% average genetic input is huge for a country. I do not see dinaric phenotypes among the Greeks but then I have not visited Veria lately.
There are more Slavic placenames in Peloponnese than Germanic placenames in Lombardy. And Lomardy is many times larger in both size and population than Peloponnese.

We will see where that 15% will stand after 10 years.
 
yes probably greeks from thessaly and macedonia should have more slavic admixture
than greeks from peloponnese

Macedonia and Thessaly may have had more Steppe influence to begin with, as shown by the MBA samples.

We will see where that 15% will stand after 10 years.

I think that 15% is overrated for Greeks overall.
 
Macedonia and Thessaly may have had more Steppe influence to begin with, as shown by the MBA samples.



I think that 15% is overrated for Greeks overall.


i wonder where would byzantine period greeks will cluster autosomally ......:unsure:

main-qimg-3ef2b5fc99b2430f5637d796de892348
 
Is this from a Slav wet dream?

Slavs overran most of mainland Greece.

The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' Slavs"

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'".
 
Slavs overran most of mainland Greece.

The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' Slavs"

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'".

And yet even in northern Greece we only have 20% slavic input. If they replaced all the existing population according to these writers then Greeks would be almost 100% Slavic. But they are not. Did some of them make it all the way down, certainly. Did they coexist with the locals, sure.
 
And yet even in northern Greece we only have 20% slavic input. If they replaced all the existing population according to these writers then Greeks would be almost 100% Slavic. But they are not. Did some of them make it all the way down, certainly. Did they coexist with the locals, sure.
Never said they replaced the whole population or even most. There is a study regarding Macedonia and it's Slavic input according to Davidski. Those type of studies are nearly 99% finished (the rumoured ones) I don't know why it takes so long for them to be published.
The Mycenaean samples were probably finished in 2016 or 2015 until they got published. It's so wierd to me.
 
how far south they go .....

21-27-32-DUuW9HqXkAEePmS.jpg



Byz%252Band%252Bslav.jpg





p.s
but i do agree with what people say here
that even if the slavic admixture exist in modern greeks
it is not that high ...
and they are for sure not heavilly slavic as davidski think
 
Slavs overran most of mainland Greece.
The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:
«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»
"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' Slavs"
Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.
And for Western Peloponnese in particular:
«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»
s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.
"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'".

Quotes are always open to interpretation. People then were writing contradictions as we do today on these forums. There were Slavs for sure. But no more than 8% overall. And if I am not mistaken. Nicephorus deported many Slavs to Anatolia, sothat they could be absorbed by the masses there. In the 9th century, the Slavs laid siege to Patras and lost. A few decades later we have documents of some Slavs revolting. Laying siege and revolting is indicative of a minority exogroup. The same is true for deportation. How can some people come and deport you against your will you have significant numbers. You only allow that to happen if you don't have significant power. And sometimes the Slavs fought with assistance. I.e. in the siege of Patras they were accompanied by Saraces. Why would they need Sarances to share the spoils if they were numerous enough?

It also caught my attention that the Greeks in the 10th century reffered to the Slavs as Scythians. So I don't think they were very Balkanic. As the Scythians are identified with the region of the Ukraine. Paleo-Balkan people however were pary of the Hellenic sphere by that time. Genetically they were quite similar to Greeks, and culturally they would have been Christians. These Slavic 'Scythian' newcomers were certainly not. Hence the term Scythian.

The Slavic numbers are vastly overrated. Mainland Greeks are related to other Balkaners mostly due to early migrations. Because Greeks colonized these areas, migrating tribes in ancient times and because the overlap from Hellenic/Aegean to Thracian/Illyrian was very gradual and overlapping.
 
^ I find it hard to believe that Slavs that reached Greece were Serb-like. I have always assumed them to be more like Slovenes.
 

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